Is Mars Between Ice Ages?

L Gilbert

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You can, you just have to look in the right places, and I don't mean scientific journals. There are a lot of magazines on the newstands with good science reporting in them: Scientific American, Discover, New Scientist, Skeptic, Skeptical Inquirer, Astronomy, Sky and Telescope... My local Chapters bookstore has a rack 8 feet long of such stuff. It also has about 30 feet of shelving 6 feet high devoted to science. The Web, being largely unrefereed, unmanaged, and unedited, is probably the worst place to look for reliable information, unless you know of some reliable, credible sites, like Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy, Ben Goldacre's Bad Science column, Stephen Barrett's Quackwatch, Matthews and Doeser's Bad Archeology, the web sites for those magazines, stuff like that. Would you like to see the Reference folder in my bookmark list?
Forgot Science Magazine. There are a few of them I trust. I learned to trust them after buying a journal now & then and finding that some of the science news mags are dead on with the journals. The ones I use are New Scientist, Science, and SciAm.
lol I bet there are a few Jesuses with Hummers on the planet. Probably a few people who think they are gods, too. hehehe
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Unbelievable! Mars is going through changes "in recreant times" because it is now a "living planet" but earth is suffering from too much carbon (the amount of which has been demonstrated as insufficient to cause our warming); NOT the same solar cycle the other planets are going through, OH NO!!! We are the centre of the universe again it would seem...

If the warming of our planet is solar induced, then we should see a warming of not only the troposphere, but the stratosphere as well. That isn't happening. The stratosphere is cooling.

Did you see that? It's called skepticism. Known physics allows us to make predictions, and to falsify silly tired memes like the sun.

What ever happened to scientists being sceptical?
How would you know? You've never copied and pasted current scientific investigations from any scholarly publication. You rely on the media. You're as bad as anyone who parrots Al Gore.

Why don't they face their own theories with the same scepticism they face everyone else's and especially those who don't have a PhD (inventors of the Internet excluded)?
Yet again, how would you know that they do or don't? There is plenty of rigorous debate on feedbacks, ocean dynamics, ice sheet dynamics, and a host of other issues. What is agreed on is the radiative physics involved with greenhouse gases. Can you find any paper that disputes the vibrational, rotational and vibro-rotational states of a greenhouse gas and the lab spectroscopic measurements that confirm a greenhouse gas really is a greenhouse gas? That has been known of and strengthened since the 19th century.

Is science like Whitehead proposed "the new Christianity?" :-?
No.

I don't even know what to say... I once respected science :-(
It will do just fine without your support.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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Now that's funny! Maybe we're contributing to accellerate a natural cycle? Maybe whatever
is going to happen, might happen a little bit sooner due to the human contrabution.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Carbon is a very minimal factor in the climate models. There are many other factors that are far more significant.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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If the warming of our planet is solar induced, then we should see a warming of not only the troposphere, but the stratosphere as well. That isn't happening. The stratosphere is cooling.

You say your a scientist but you act like a doofus?

Has it ever occurred to you that you might not know everything?

Did you see that? It's called skepticism. Known physics allows us to make predictions, and to falsify silly tired memes like the sun.

Well you idiot go back and READ what I said. JFC!!! My hypothesis is just as plausible as your idiotic GW and carbon - which is my point. Not that I actually put forward a hypothesis anyway, I just posted the facts.

How the hell could you be a scientist? I don't believe it. I call BS!

How would you know? You've never copied and pasted current scientific investigations from any scholarly publication. You rely on the media. You're as bad as anyone who parrots Al Gore.

Copy/paste? no, I have typed in quotes which you promptly ignored because they blew your theories out of the sky.

Here is a formula for you:

No model, no experiment = BS.

Yet again, how would you know that they do or don't? There is plenty of rigorous debate on feedbacks, ocean dynamics, ice sheet dynamics, and a host of other issues. What is agreed on is the radiative physics involved with greenhouse gases. Can you find any paper that disputes the vibrational, rotational and vibro-rotational states of a greenhouse gas and the lab spectroscopic measurements that confirm a greenhouse gas really is a greenhouse gas? That has been known of and strengthened since the 19th century.

If you were a real scientist you would know that any claim needs to be backed by a model or experiment that can make an accurate prediction - a real scientist would know that. A hack spins useless phrases over and over again; your a hack.


How the hell would you know LMAO!!! :lol:

I posted that question to a real scientist. When I first proposed it he gave me an answer that knocked my socks off - he didn't just say "no" like some self appointed deity.

It will do just fine without your support.

I meant REAL science - go back to your play-doh or whatever it is you do at your dorm.
 
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Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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You say your a scientist but you act like a doofus?

Quite the opposite. I made a point to correct someone when they said I was. I'm a student in a science degree. Big difference.

Has it ever occurred to you that you might not know everything?
It's never occured to me that I might know everything.

I wouldn't even respond to your nonsense if you didn't let things like this fly:

Mars is going through changes "in recreant times" because it is now a "living planet" but earth is suffering from too much carbon (the amount of which has been demonstrated as insufficient to cause our warming...
To which the answer is, yes it has. There has been a number of different mechanisms found responsible for it (among them, the solar cycles of irradience, cosmic ray flux, and sunspots, and greenhouse gases) and all have found evidence. Not all of it is good. Science is not infallible. Maybe that's the first thing you ought to pause on before you give it's study up.

Here's a good example of how science works. A result was published in a journal, and then someone else responded to it in a journal. Cosmic Rays, Carbon Dioxide, and Climate.

If you really want a good history of the things that have been discovered, I'd recommend browsing Spencer Weart's website. Climate change: The discovery of global warming.

You won't find a better historical examination of the findings.

Well you idiot go back and READ what I said. JFC!!! My hypothesis is just as plausible as your idiotic GW and carbon - which is my point. Not that I actually put forward a hypothesis anyway, I just posted the facts.
Your hypothesis is not as plausible. The coincidence of finding other warming planets doesn't mean anything at all, without some better statistics than your correlation. All we have to do is examine the phenomena on both planets, to see that the circumstances, the numbers, and the causes are not similar. You definitely have put forward a hypothesis, but your facts seem to be popular media. Why and when did popular media 'facts' become on equal par with scientific facts? Is Fox News really the fair and balanced network they make themselves out to be?

How the hell could you be a scientist? I don't believe it. I call BS!
No need. I never said I was. Where are you getting this?

Copy/paste? no, I have typed in quotes which you promptly ignored because they blew your theories out of the sky.
You typed in the quotes, or copied and pasted them into the quote box? All of your threads begin with copies and pastes. This thread is typical of your others on this topic, you copy an article, then make claims that aren't supported.

If you were a real scientist you would know that any claim needs to be backed by a model or experiment that can make an accurate prediction - a real scientist would know that.
Sigh. well for the last time I hope, I'm not a scientist. I've never claimed to be a scientist. In any event, even though I'm not a scientist, I know that any claim must also be falsifiable, and it must be good methodology. Models aren't needed at all to make a scientific claim.

You can ask a question, investigate and record, draw statistical inference from the chosen parameters, and then make conclusions. That doesn't require a model, it requires a method.

How the hell would you know LMAO!!! :lol:
Because science is nothing like Christianity. In order to make that comparison, we'll need to change either science, Christianity, or both, for them to be similar, and we'll also need to define them in just such a way, that it makes the similarities between the two different categories of human interaction homogenized to make a comparison even possible. That's certainly not the case now.

Do you believe in the creation of Earth by some deity? If not, why not?

I posted that question to a real scientist. When I first proposed it he gave me an answer that knocked my socks off - he didn't just say "no" like some self appointed deity.
Maybe he hadn't thought on the question before? I've heard you compare science to religion before. I'm quite capable of responding to questions. Being or not being a scientist is not really relevant to someones ability to answer a question. I assume you get along just fine every day when you answer them.

I meant REAL science
Yah, professors, researchers, lab technicians, field supervisors, grad students, and all of their work will get along just fine without your respect.

I'm working as a landscaper thanks, and haven't lived in a dorm since 2004.
 

Scott Free

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Quite the opposite. I made a point to correct someone when they said I was. I'm a student in a science degree. Big difference.

I must have read something that said you were and missed your rebuke.

It's never occured to me that I might know everything.

You just know more than me right? lol Karrie already said that :lol:

I wouldn't even respond to your nonsense if you didn't let things like this fly:

To which the answer is, yes it has. There has been a number of different mechanisms found responsible for it (among them, the solar cycles of irradience, cosmic ray flux, and sunspots, and greenhouse gases) and all have found evidence. Not all of it is good. Science is not infallible. Maybe that's the first thing you ought to pause on before you give it's study up.

Wow dude, your really stretching here. Carbon isn't causing our warming (proved by models and experiments), other planets and bodies are warming too but there is absolutely no way possible unimagined or undiscovered or otherwise that the events could be connected? There is just no way in your mind?

seriously Tonkahead... that's a pretty bad fail...

Your hypothesis is not as plausible. The coincidence of finding other warming planets doesn't mean anything at all, without some better statistics than your correlation.

STOP! That's my point. I don't have a hypothesis, I don't have a theory - all I have is correlation and I admit it.

I am not making up BS to panic everyone with tales of huge energy waves or the sun getting ready to explode or whatever...

Because I have no proof of anything and neither do you.

All we have to do is examine the phenomena on both planets,

You forgot Saturn and some moons.

You definitely have put forward a hypothesis, but your facts seem to be popular media. Why and when did popular media 'facts' become on equal par with scientific facts? Is Fox News really the fair and balanced network they make themselves out to be?

I wouldn't know. I threw out my damn TV and I won't have one of those propaganda boxes in my house!

No need. I never said I was. Where are you getting this?

See above. I read that you were but apparently you are not. My apologies.

You typed in the quotes, or copied and pasted them into the quote box? All of your threads begin with copies and pastes. This thread is typical of your others on this topic, you copy an article, then make claims that aren't supported.

That's your opinion. Have you considered that you mostly miss my points?

Sigh. well for the last time I hope, I'm not a scientist. I've never claimed to be a scientist. In any event, even though I'm not a scientist, I know that any claim must also be falsifiable, and it must be good methodology. Models aren't needed at all to make a scientific claim.

You can ask a question, investigate and record, draw statistical inference from the chosen parameters, and then make conclusions. That doesn't require a model, it requires a method.

Even if the experiments and models invalidate that method?

That's some strange science indeed.

Because science is nothing like Christianity. In order to make that comparison, we'll need to change either science, Christianity, or both, for them to be similar, and we'll also need to define them in just such a way, that it makes the similarities between the two different categories of human interaction homogenized to make a comparison even possible. That's certainly not the case now.

I agree if we are talking about science in its ideal form, however, there are plenty of parallels that can be found in science as culture and particularly science as political culture.

Do you believe in the creation of Earth by some deity? If not, why not?

I don't believe in anything. You, me, these computers we talk through are not "real."

Maybe he hadn't thought on the question before? I've heard you compare science to religion before. I'm quite capable of responding to questions. Being or not being a scientist is not really relevant to someones ability to answer a question. I assume you get along just fine every day when you answer them.

I seek the advice of experts whenever I can actually and on just about every topic.

My comparison of science and religion comes from my own experience with religion and then my discovering parallels within the science community and herein my original confusion was that I didn't understand the dynamics of human social groups, egoism and the inevitable pecking orders etc, that are born out of them. Now that I've pointed it out you can claim you already understood that. "ah but I did" you say. Well good for you I say.

Whithead meant that the great men of science in the past were or at least maintained that they were religious. With the advent of the separation of church and state these same men are now still seeking truth with science and the old religion of Christianity has become something else without them.

Yah, professors, researchers, lab technicians, field supervisors, grad students, and all of their work will get along just fine without your respect.

Your making some pretty big assumptions here. Things aren't always what they seem.

I'm working as a landscaper thanks, and haven't lived in a dorm since 2004.

Look Tonkahead, I like heated discussions mixed with the odd bit of ad hominem just for fun. From the reds you sent me and your own attacks at me I thought you did too. If I assumed wrong then let me know. I absolutely have nothing personal against you and support your right to believe in GW or whatever the hell else you might like. I just like to argue - it's fun and helps mental acuity. If I have offended you then I'm sorry. I really did not mean any harm but a good fight always entails a little blood ;-)
 
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Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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O.K...keeping this short. The original thread is, "Is Mars Between Ice Ages?"
Assuming Mars is active (and yeah, I know about the ass/u/me thing), then much
like Earth, ice ages might very well be cyclical there too...so...Mars is either in an
ice age or between ice ages. I'll check it again in 10,000 to 15,000 years and let
you both know what happens.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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I must have read something that said you were and missed your rebuke.

Fair enough.

You just know more than me right? lol Karrie already said that :lol:

I have no idea how much you know. I know very little about you. All I do know is that you use lots of fallacies, and your logic suffers because of that.

Wow dude, your really stretching here. Carbon isn't causing our warming (proved by models and experiments)

Not really. I'm assuming you didn't read through any of Weart's material?



other planets and bodies are warming too but there is absolutely no way possible unimagined or undiscovered or otherwise that the events could be connected? There is just no way in your mind?

There's a huge difference between saying something that you have mentioned many times is false and unsupported, and saying something isn't possible. I never said it wasn't possible. It doesn't look likely, but that's what statistics are for.

STOP! That's my point. I don't have a hypothesis, I don't have a theory - all I have is correlation and I admit it.

Of course you have a hypothesis. Your hypothesis is that some unknown factor is causing the warming on this planet as well as Mars and Jupiter and some satellites. That is a very common sense hypothesis. But it's wrong.

I am not making up BS to panic everyone with tales of huge energy waves or the sun getting ready to explode or whatever...

Because I have no proof of anything and neither do you.

You are making up BS. You're making it up all the time when you purport on these pages to know what all the models say, what they "only have to do to...", what experiments have proved theories wrong, all of it unwarranted.

In fact, the only real disproof you attempted with the greenhouse theory was a magazine article written by Pat Frank, an article that is hilariously out of touch with how things are attributed, and counted for that matter.

I wouldn't know. I threw out my damn TV and I won't have one of those propaganda boxes in my house!

So, in all your time on the internet, or new age propaganda boxes, you've never encountered news stories from Fox News?

That's besides the point anyways. My point is, that popular media, whether television, printed, or electronic, says things all the time that aren't true. There's no filter, there's more opinion-editorializing than anything else.

Why do you think the Al Gore ad hominem is so prevalent?

That's your opinion. Have you considered that you mostly miss my points?

Have you considered that you're missing the point entirely? I know I've reread some of your posts multiple times to make sure I interpreted what you had said correctly. Some of it makes no sense whatsoever, both linguistically and on the content of your messages.

What have you done?


Even if the experiments and models invalidate that method?

That's some strange science indeed.

So, you think that experiments and models can invalidate the scientific method? Just to be sure, I was basically defining the scientific method. Models follow that same method.

It's not strange at all. That's how science began, and continues to this day.

I agree if we are talking about science in its ideal form, however, there are plenty of parallels that can be found in science as culture and particularly science as political culture.

The further away you get from ideal, or normalised science, the less it resembles science. I simply don't think it's a valid comparison at all. Science isn't you and I quoting some finding. We can talk about science, but there's no investigation there. It's probe to popularity contests. Just like religion is. That's one similarity, but is far and apart from science.

Now you're talking about human psychology. It's not science that begins to resemble Christianity, it's the cultural/economic/societal modes of human interaction and function that do that.

I don't believe in anything. You, me, these computers we talk through are not "real."

That's pretty damn ironic. Your idea that you, me, and these computers are not "real", is a belief. :lol:

I seek the advice of experts whenever I can actually and on just about every topic.

So, what experts have you sought out on this?

Now that I've pointed it out you can claim you already understood that. "ah but I did" you say. Well good for you I say.

I did. I started a freaking thread on this subject.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/s...debatable-scientific-questions-debatable.html

Your making some pretty big assumptions here. Things aren't always what they seem.

Assuming that science will progress as it has, even if you stop respecting it? I'm comfortable with that assumption.

Yes, I know you like ad hominems. I've mentioned that before, and I have little use for them.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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I have no idea how much you know. I know very little about you. All I do know is that you use lots of fallacies, and your logic suffers because of that.

Your entitled to your fallacies.

Not really. I'm assuming you didn't read through any of Weart's material?

I did. Just like I've read through your threads. If only enthusiasm were enough to win the day...


There's a huge difference between saying something that you have mentioned many times is false and unsupported, and saying something isn't possible. I never said it wasn't possible. It doesn't look likely, but that's what statistics are for.

You've completely missed my point. There is a correlation between mars and earth; there is a correlation between carbon and GW; there is a correlation between babyboomers ageing and GW.

Correlations don't prove a damn thing.

Of course you have a hypothesis. Your hypothesis is that some unknown factor is causing the warming on this planet as well as Mars and Jupiter and some satellites. That is a very common sense hypothesis. But it's wrong.

The correlation is just as strong as your carbon and GW one except yours hasn't been pretty much proved wrong. Carbon is a contributer certainly but only a minor one.

You are making up BS. You're making it up all the time when you purport on these pages to know what all the models say, what they "only have to do to...", what experiments have proved theories wrong, all of it unwarranted.

No, the models can show decline or increase in global temperature regardless of the carbon in the air. Carbon just isn't a big deal. It might be to the frogs but it isn't to temperature.

In fact, the only real disproof you attempted with the greenhouse theory was a magazine article written by Pat Frank, an article that is hilariously out of touch with how things are attributed, and counted for that matter.

That is all I need. I could find more. Walter certainly has found an amazing amount of counter argument. I haven't bothered because, for me, Pat Frank's article is enough. The models demonstrate that carbon isn't the greatest cause.

A new better model might demonstrate otherwise but for now his argument is solid. I'm sure some hacks are cooking up a fix as I type this.

So, in all your time on the internet, or new age propaganda boxes, you've never encountered news stories from Fox News?

About the specified topic, no I haven't.

That's besides the point anyways. My point is, that popular media, whether television, printed, or electronic, says things all the time that aren't true. There's no filter, there's more opinion-editorializing than anything else.

I agree.

Why do you think the Al Gore ad hominem is so prevalent?

Because he is a fraud, a lier and exploiting human misery for his own ends.

Have you considered that you're missing the point entirely?

Yes, I back track frequently. I don't think I'm missing the point at all. I think people want to do something about GW and fighting carbon is the only thing they can do. They don't care if it's a waste of time. They think there will be benefits no matter what. I disagree with that. I think, for example, that reducing pesticide use world wide is a far more critical issue right now.

I know I've reread some of your posts multiple times to make sure I interpreted what you had said correctly. Some of it makes no sense whatsoever, both linguistically and on the content of your messages.

Well, what can I say, I try my best.

What have you done?

Huh? I don't know what your asking here? What have I done about what?

So, you think that experiments and models can invalidate the scientific method? Just to be sure, I was basically defining the scientific method. Models follow that same method.

No, it invalidates the idea that carbon is a major contributer to GW. It invalidates that carbon is anything larger than a tiny contributer in fact.

The further away you get from ideal, or normalised science, the less it resembles science. I simply don't think it's a valid comparison at all. Science isn't you and I quoting some finding. We can talk about science, but there's no investigation there. It's probe to popularity contests. Just like religion is. That's one similarity, but is far and apart from science.

Now you're talking about human psychology. It's not science that begins to resemble Christianity, it's the cultural/economic/societal modes of human interaction and function that do that.

I'm not sure what your talking about.

That's pretty damn ironic. Your idea that you, me, and these computers are not "real", is a belief. :lol:

The irony is that you think it's irony.

I say "belief" because I haven't proved it yet. I have lots of theories that lead me to this "belief." I am not so naive as to accept my perception as reality when clearly it isn't. Something much different than what your or I perceive is going on here.

So, what experts have you sought out on this?

Many but you already sited my favourite.


Fail, I had already been posting about it.

Assuming that science will progress as it has, even if you stop respecting it? I'm comfortable with that assumption.

Sure, OK.

Yes, I know you like ad hominems. I've mentioned that before, and I have little use for them.

That doesn't seem to be the case. You seem to like ad hominem quite a bit. Maybe you need to go over your posts to me as a reminder. ;-)