Fitna: A controversial short movie on Islam

[CDNBear]

Hey Bear!

I haven't been able to see the material provided but from Colpy's precis it would strike me as distrubing as well. But then I was distrubed with burning kindergardens and bombed busses in Ireland.....

As should anyone be.

Whle we perhaps ought to feel disturbed by these kinds of images, is the real purpose in presenting them a denunciation of war and violence or is it a means of focussing hatred and fear?

I guess people will take from it what they will Mikey.

I don't fear Islam, I don't hate Muslims. I hate and fear what the individual will do under the banner of. As I do with a myriad or other ideological banners, bot religious and political.

It's just plain scary Mikey. The world truly is at war. If we strike the first blow, or wait to be attacked, it makes no difference. Death will come to somebody, anybody. And the issue grows tenfold.

I fear it will consume us all, in one way or another.

 

[MikeyDB]

Bear

We are living in troubled times. But is it that the times themselves are so radially different than any other time or is our perception a function of the speed with which horror can be brought to our attention?

 

[CDNBear]

Bear

We are living in troubled times. But is it that the times themselves are so radially different than any other time or is our perception a function of the speed with which horror can be brought to our attention?

No...I think there is far more killing in the name of (insert whatever here).

I'm coming to the realisation or perhaps acceptance, that what you sometimes see as 'bellicose' in me, may actually may be frustration and fear, manifest in one of the few emotions I have that work.

 

[MikeyDB]

Bear (Ursa Major...if you like rank...

I'd suggest that this idea that there's more killing in the name of ________________ isn't an accurate portrayal of our times. I'd agree that there's far too much killing for anything in the name of.... but the slaughter of mankind by mankind fills our history books!

My perspective is that we learn about our own internal conflicts with rage fear anger love envy and so on through the facility given our perceptions through the magic of our modern technology. We know that Americans tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib, we know that Moslem extremists beheaded helpless people we know that people who've presented themselves as icons of honesty and integrity are liars and in the end petty-minded insects when it comes to looking at never mind acknowledging the world around them. As hurtful and unsettling as these images of hatred fear and anger are, are we to internalize this anger and hatred as fodder for the many and various engines of discontent that surround us or do we look past the immediate repulsion and internalize the notion that there are perhaps other ways, better ways of meeting challenges?

 

[CDNBear]

Bear (Ursa Major...if you like rank...

I'd suggest that this idea that there's more killing in the name of ________________ isn't an accurate portrayal of our times. I'd agree that there's far too much killing for anything in the name of.... but the slaughter of mankind by mankind fills our history books!

My perspective is that we learn about our own internal conflicts with rage fear anger love envy and so on through the facility given our perceptions through the magic of our modern technology. We know that Americans tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib, we know that Moslem extremists beheaded helpless people we know that people who've presented themselves as icons of honesty and integrity are liars and in the end petty-minded insects when it comes to looking at never mind acknowledging the world around them. As hurtful and unsettling as these images of hatred fear and anger are, are we to internalize this anger and hatred as fodder for the many and various engines of discontent that surround us or do we look past the immediate repulsion and internalize the notion that there are perhaps other ways, better ways of meeting challenges?

May be you and a myriad of others were/are correct, my mind has no idea how to deal with such questions. I quickly return to the primal man and use force to counter force. Not because I crave it, but I have no hope in the 'other' options, I have no idea how to function in the 'other' options. I know I wear 'Warrior' like a big shiny badge of honour, but I've begun to see it as dismal place, I can no longer tolerate.

I find myself stuck in between ideologies. I can not accept placation, I can not handle the toll anymore.

 

[MikeyDB]

Bear

I'd give you a hug if I could wrap my arms around you!

Although it may seem like I'm minimizing or dismissing , I belive that we are taught how to choose. We are taught that difference is justification for hatred...we are taught that the poor and the less fortunate are legitimate targets for scorn and ridicule.... Because it is (and this isn't a negative criticism) easier to lash out than it is to pursue alternate courses of action, we are encouraged to find that primitivism deep within all of us and use it.

We need education and patience, tolerance and compassion until those efforts are exhausted then we pick up the sword.... Not the sword first!

When I got back from SE Asia I had nothing...and I mean absolutely nothing.... I managed to rent a sleezy one room apartment with cheap panneling on the walls that served to push all the depression and anger I was fighting even further into my psyche...

I decorated my walls with posters I could afford to purchase at a second hand store and one that I put up has stayed with me forever...

"We are not nor can we ever be what our fathers were..."

Unless we learn something different about ourselves and I'm not suggesting this is an easy thing...we are destined to repeat the cycles over and over again....

Peace my friend.

 

[Outta here]

I find myself stuck in between ideologies. I can not accept placation, I can not handle the toll anymore.

This is the ravaging conundrum we all face when we look with eyes wide open... it is indeed a challenge to find hope in solutions that the world doesn't seem ready to embrace in any kind of effective way.
Hope is the celebration of life - in this case of mankind itself. What's to hope for? What's left to celebrate?
I used to believe that the 'critical mass' required for the world to unify it's attentions and intentions towards hopeful, life sustaining, peaceful solutions was just around the corner.... I'm getting to the point where sticking my head in the sand is becoming preferable... :-(

 

[MikeyDB]

Zan

No Zan not time for the ostrich strategy yet!

When our teeth pierce our gums, we gnaw on anything we can find and fortunately for most the pain of growth is tolerable. For many it isn't and for these folk we extend our compassion our sympathy and our efforts to help them through.

Mankind deserves to pay a price for the miracle his existence may be. It is a tortuous path beset with hurdles and obstructions every step of the way. We learned to fly and the wonders of modern medicine are simply astounding! We have created structure and substance where none has existed. We have answered some questions and have many more to examine but it is only through the process of examination and willingness to persevere when the easy solution is to surrender that we really "make progress".

I don't expect to be around much longer but man I've got to tell you, I wouldn't have missed it for the world. What's important to remeber is that a whole slew of youngsters will inherit what we leave them. We must become the husbands and mothers and lovers and companions that empower progress and success. To do any less is to abandon our children to a future of hopelessness.

We must fight for what we believe-in and that fight has to include setting the petty squabbles and unwillingness to change behind us. Change for it's own sake is no change of substance, but change that facilitates and enhances the future of the next generation the next gang of dreamers and questioners is everyones resposibility. Giving up isn't an option!

 

[MHz]

I think MHz might be thinking about the USS Liberty that was bombed by Israel.

Oops, yes that is the one. Yet why is this blamed on 'Muslims extremists'? This link below puts them as 'old US assets' in that the US supported them with training and weapons at one time, even if by proxy. Attacks against the US are political in nature, if it was just religion why wasn't a full Church bombed instead, at least there you are sure to get as many 'Christians' as possible. A ship of war, in theory, shouldn't have Christians on board.

http://www.cargolaw.com/2000nightmare_cole.html
"Those Responsible Caught?

Six Yemeni suspects in the bombing of the USS Cole have been identified by sources close to the investigation, who say they share a background as fighters in the anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Jamal al-Badawi, the most senior of the 6 suspects jailed in Yemen told investigators he received telephone instructions for the Oct. 12 bombing from a man in the United Arab Emirates, the Yemeni sources said.. Al-Badawi said he had met the man in Afghanistan during the war but had not seen him since, the sources said. Two suicide bombers detonated their explosives-packed boat next to the U.S. warship as it refueled in Aden harbor at Yemen's southern tip, killing 17 U.S. sailors and wounding 39. Al-Badawi identified his contact as Mohammed Omar al-Harazi, who used the aliases ''Abu al-Mohsin'' and ''Abu al-Hasan,'' the sources said. Al-Harazi remains at-large. Al-Harazi is a Saudi citizen born to a Yemeni family in the rugged Haraz mountain region west of San'a, the capital.
The Afghan connection is one of the tenuous links Yemeni investigators have found between the group involved in the Cole attack and America's No. 1 terror suspect, Osama bin Laden, who also fought in Afghanistan.
U.S. law enforcement officials have said previously that several threads link the suspects now held by the Yemenis to the bin Laden organization.
Al-Badawi told investigators that al-Harazi never directly told him he was receiving orders and financing for the attack from bin Laden, but al-Harazi's tone and manner had led him to believe that was the case, the sources said.
Other suspects in the Cole attack were identified as 2 police officials from Lahej, just north of Aden: Walid al-Sourouri & Fatha Abdul Rahman. A source said the policemen provided fake identification & other documents for the suicide bombers. Yasser al-Azzani, also jailed in connection with the bombing, knew the suicide bombers well enough to play host to them at his Aden home for lunch the day before the attack, but it was unclear how much he knew about their plans, the sources said. Another suspect, Jamal Ba Khorsh, may have been recruited to videotape the attack for unknown purposes but the tape was never made, the sources said. No details were given by the sources on the role of the 6th suspect who was identified as Ahmad al-Shinni.
Three to 6 suspects will stand trial in January 2001. [See below -- the process has taken until 2004]
UPDATE>> Yemen's security forces have detained a top Al-Qaeda man, a suspected mastermind of the deadly suicide bombings of the USS Cole & a French oil tanker off the country's coast. Mohammed Hamdi al-Ahdal had evaded arrest despite heading the Arab state's wanted list for nearly 2 years. The official Yemeni news agency, Saba, said the man, also known as Abu Asem al-Macci, surrendered to police after they surrounded a house in the capital, Sanaa, where the Islamic militant had been hiding. (Thurs. Nov. 27 2003)
UPDATE>> TRIAL BEGINS: Yemeni security court charged 6 men alleged to be al-Qaida members July 7 with plotting the attack on the USS Cole, opening the 1st trial in suicide bombing that killed 17 American sailors. Among defendants is reputed mastermind Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. Police & soldiers cordoned off security court in San`a, and marksmen watched from rooftops, as 5 of the defendants brought in to hear the judge read their indictment. Al-Nashiri, the 6th defendant, is in U.S. custody. (Wed. July 7 2004)"


Why lump Israel in there, aren't they the ones that promote hatred because of religion. As shallow as the US is, their prime concern is still in the material things in other lands. Do they force conversion to Christianity before they will do business? Even when they get their 'preferred leader' in control they don't all of a sudden build 100 Churches. As longs as they pay as little money as possible to as few as possible they could care less about what religion was the dominant one. When things back-fire on their 'grip' that is when the religion card is played. What sympathy would they get if they said, "Those bastards stole back their resources."
If the West (Christian Nations) dealt fairly with the Countries, that eventually bite back, in the first place many conflicts wouldn't even take place. As it is, one of the first sales to any 'new partner' is lots of stuff for making war. Isn't that the back-bone of American manufacturing these days?

​

 

[CDNBear]

Bear

I'd give you a hug if I could wrap my arms around you!

Although it may seem like I'm minimizing or dismissing , I belive that we are taught how to choose. We are taught that difference is justification for hatred...we are taught that the poor and the less fortunate are legitimate targets for scorn and ridicule.... Because it is (and this isn't a negative criticism) easier to lash out than it is to pursue alternate courses of action, we are encouraged to find that primitivism deep within all of us and use it.

We need education and patience, tolerance and compassion until those efforts are exhausted then we pick up the sword.... Not the sword first!

When I got back from SE Asia I had nothing...and I mean absolutely nothing.... I managed to rent a sleezy one room apartment with cheap panneling on the walls that served to push all the depression and anger I was fighting even further into my psyche...

I decorated my walls with posters I could afford to purchase at a second hand store and one that I put up has stayed with me forever...

"We are not nor can we ever be what our fathers were..."

Unless we learn something different about ourselves and I'm not suggesting this is an easy thing...we are destined to repeat the cycles over and over again....

Which leads me to ask of myself..."What have you done?"

Which leads to an uneasy, sickening feeling that I have not contributed to the betterment, but the destruction of, peace.

I've always had something or somebody waiting for me. I haven't always seen it, known it was there, or accepted it as such. But it/they were there.

I feel for you, I truly truly do. Because I know that kind of empty, whether I forced it on myself or not, I know it and I know how empty it is. You speak of a poster, which I find remarkably funny and truly eerie. I to remember a poster from my forlorn days. A Soldier cradling the shell of his fallen brother, while looking skyward and the caption "Why?".

The duality is torturous. I find myself at rage with all I see and as scared as a child, waiting to be spanked for ill deeds.

I can feel within me the anger, the rage, the guilt, it swells and I can visualise it as a monster on the field of battle. It looks magnificent. The Warrior cry, the sweat, the blood, the mud, the energy. It is easier to be the Armoured soul, killing what it does not comprehend. Then it is to stop and seek that of which is just outside of the grasp of ones sum of parts.

Peace my friend.

I bow my head humbly in thanx and offer... Peace be upon you sir.

This is the ravaging conundrum we all face when we look with eyes wide open... it is indeed a challenge to find hope in solutions that the world doesn't seem ready to embrace in any kind of effective way.
Hope is the celebration of life - in this case of mankind itself. What's to hope for? What's left to celebrate?
I used to believe that the 'critical mass' required for the world to unify it's attentions and intentions towards hopeful, life sustaining, peaceful solutions was just around the corner.... I'm getting to the point where sticking my head in the sand is becoming preferable... :-(

Have you ever asked the Spirits for you to be happy? I've tried, for my happy is a world void of death. I have no other capabilities but to inflict damage. So when I pray to be happy, that is what I get. For it appears that I am only happy at the giving end of pain.

 

[Outta here]

It is easier to be the Armoured soul, killing what it does not comprehend. Then it is to stop and seek that of which is just outside of the grasp of ones sum of parts.

... and that dear Bear, is why I think it continues... it's much more difficult to look within and ask the question: What can *I* do to bring about the change I wish to see? It's a courageous question - and some of the most powerful people on earth have yet to find the courage to ask it... for the answer will surely lead them to release their death grip on a self-serving belief or desire that feeds the inhumanity.

Have you ever asked the Spirits for you to be happy? I've tried, for my happy is a world void of death. I have no other capabilities but to inflict damage. So when I pray to be happy, that is what I get. For it appears that I am only happy at the giving end of pain.

Yes Bear, I've asked. The answer varies - but it's usually grounded in something that starts with me. Seems I can't hand responsibility for my misery OR my happiness over to anyone else, demmit.:-?
As for you only being happy at the giving end of pain, I flat out challenge you on that. Perhaps today it seems that way - but I have seen you within these very pages describe a different sort of happiness - one that brings you closer to Spirit than anything else - and it wasn't accomplished at the sacrifice of another. Unless I misunderstand what you meant by that comment.

Today, as you survey the bigger picture and your place within it, you find yourself wanting in what role you've played in it. The good news is you have time to contribute more, leave a different foot print, one that fulfills your sense of who you are, who you wish to be. As long as you draw breath there's time.

But... again the conundrum rears... what can a single person do to minimize the carnage we see taking place all around us? It's like a surreal 20-ring circus sometimes. That, my friend I don't know the answer to either. As I said, head in the sand is becoming more and more preferable as the options for effective actions seem to evaporate a little more every day.

I leave the bigger answers to those more suited to providing answers that may work... it's all I can do to live my life in a way that honours who I wish to be. Maybe we can't save the world, but that doesn't mean we have to participate in it's demise - spiritually or physically.

 

[MikeyDB]

Hey I'm the pessimist and cynic on this board!

Watchit Zan!

 

[Outta here]

yanno Mikey, when I pay attention to this subject, I ususally at least *try* to find something positive to focus on - anything to find hope ... somehow lately this is just becoming harder and harder... I've been watching stuff that highlights the humans affected by the machine of war - more and more I'm reminded 'there but for the grace of *insert deity of choice here* goes I... and I cannot - for the friggin life of me - fathom how I would live in such an environment without going stark raving mad.

Someone once asked me "What's it like in denial?"

I replied: "Crowded".

 

[MikeyDB]

Zan

We expect completion. We learn that there is a process or forumla, a strategy or a plan and when that concept fails us we're annoyed because these notions are "supposed" to get us to "where we want to be"....

I don't wonder at what passes for "humanity" any more and haven't for a long while. If there's any silver lining to be seen, it begins and ends with doing everything we can for the future.

Our youngsters will make many of the same mistakes we made and may even find new ones just like we did....

But we've got to push and push hard for a new awakening.

You weren't promised at any time that life would be fair. It ain't so we've got to bash it into as fair a compromise as "fair" can be. I'd suggest meditation and if that doesn't work for you (it doesn't work for me sometimes) I recommend Jack Daniels.....

 

[Just the Facts]

Yet why is this blamed on 'Muslims extremists'? This link below puts them as 'old US assets' in that the US supported them with training and weapons at one time, even if by proxy.

Perhaps it would be more appropro to ask THEM why they not only turned against the U.S., but turned against it with such vitriol and hatred, even after the US supported them with training and weapons at one time, even if by proxy.

Attacks against the US are political in nature

Islam IS political.

Why lump Israel in there, aren't they the ones that promote hatred because of religion.

Just by virtue of existing, correct?

 

[eh1eh]

[sarcasm]Look. Just get on your knees a pray to Allah five times a day and this hole mess will be cleared up.[/sarcasm]

All my other comments contravene the criminal code.

 

[MHz]

Perhaps it would be more appropro to ask THEM why they not only turned against the U.S., but turned against it with such vitriol and hatred, even after the US supported them with training and weapons at one time, even if by proxy.

Why train them to fight their battles in the first place? Who turned on who? Once the Soviets were gone what did the US do for them or the country they were fighting for?

Islam IS political.

The same could be said for Christians. You're under the impression that Islam would conduct themselves the same way the 'wayward' Jews of today.

Just by virtue of existing, correct?

By virtue of meddling in affairs that are none of their business. They speak quite often about the evil that exist in other Nations, when it comes time to their own house they don't give a fuk what the world has to say. One story goes that Iraq was in violation of NU resolutions, do you have any idea how many resolutions have been against Israel in the last 60 years? What was done, squat.

You can even have Israel openly lobby US politicians, with great success BTW. Why not let other countries do the same. Since it is American money going back to Americans (not quite the same ratio either) why not let a 'richer country' do some lobbying, the politicians would get a lot more than they get from Israel. That might slow down the arms sales though so they might have to actually produce something that has some benefit to mankind, and that is not more GM crops or other crap that is in their current list. The last time they collaborated with another Nation in medicine they were there long enough to get all the research and fly that back home to be put into a dark vault and then they shut down the flow of money. Brilliant, just fuking brilliant.

 

[Just the Facts]

Why train them to fight their battles in the first place? Who turned on who? Once the Soviets were gone what did the US do for them or the country they were fighting for?

So you're suggesting the U.S. should have occupied Afghanistan in 1989? That's an interesting twist. I guess they moving more to your liking recently.

The same could be said for Christians.

Really? No, seriously, really? And if so, who cares? Ban Christianity. If they start killing people for not being Christian I'm right on board with you. Christains, Hindus, Satanists, Zoroastrians, whatever, have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Open a new thread, it might be interesting to see how many death threats we get for insulting any of those religions.

You're under the impression that Islam would conduct themselves the same way the 'wayward' Jews of today.


By virtue of meddling in affairs that are none of their business. They speak quite often about the evil that exist in other Nations, when it comes time to their own house they don't give a fuk what the world has to say. One story goes that Iraq was in violation of NU resolutions, do you have any idea how many resolutions have been against Israel in the last 60 years? What was done, squat.

You can even have Israel openly lobby US politicians, with great success BTW. Why not let other countries do the same. Since it is American money going back to Americans (not quite the same ratio either) why not let a 'richer country' do some lobbying, the politicians would get a lot more than they get from Israel. That might slow down the arms sales though so they might have to actually produce something that has some benefit to mankind, and that is not more GM crops or other crap that is in their current list. The last time they collaborated with another Nation in medicine they were there long enough to get all the research and fly that back home to be put into a dark vault and then they shut down the flow of money. Brilliant, just fuking brilliant.

:?: Huh?

 

[Just the Facts]

Fitna's back up on Liveleak, BTW. Apparently they decided not to be bullied into not doing something that they felt they had every right to do. So they put the video back up after arranging to beef up security to protect their staff from, err, Islamophobes.

 

[MHz]

So you're suggesting the U.S. should have occupied Afghanistan in 1989? That's an interesting twist. I guess they moving more to your liking recently.

That isn't what I was suggesting. I said the ones they trained seemed to be using that training against them. It could for a legit reason (as was promoted by the US when it was against the Soviets), but as soon as the US is the target then they are in the same boat as the Soviets were. You may/may not have noticed the US is always right, no matter what the issue, that is flat out wrong.