John McCain's foreign-policy agenda (from Süddeutsche Zeitung)

[Roland]

The thought of McCain as president scares me. Actually most of the candidates do in the long run, but after reading something in Der Spiegel, I agree with Unforgiven. He's just another puppet.

"McCain is known to want more troops in Iraq instead of less. He believes that the war there, though very horribly done is still winnable. If they (the US) were to leave Iraq before it's totally secure would mean a great and deadly threat to the United States."

Sounds like fearmongering to me.

I dont know why John McCain scares you. I think his foreign-policy agenda sounds rational, and very important for me, fair-minded. How the author speculates in your linked article, the Democratic candidates talks about withdrawals, but when their win the elections, they will look for reasons to keep in the Iraq. In my eyes they deals dishonestly with the people. It is charming, but false. So why we should kidding ourself?
Also in the same article writes the author that Barack Obama threatens Pakistan with an US invasion in their country, if they dont fight against al-Qaida and Talibans in the northern Pakistani territories...
Typically come such unmindful words from the current President ;-)
In contrast to this are John McCain's ideas about Pakistan well thought-out. It is better to stabilize Pakistan with an economical and political partnership as to deploy NATO forces to them. But only my opinion.

I don't think German media isn't really as light on McCain as you say, Roland.. but I read Spiegel and Berliner Zeitung.

Oh, I didnt wrote that German media sympathize with John McCain. Of course not. European and particularly German media favours Democratic candidates. I meant that German media characterize him as a liberal and left-winged in the Republican party.

It already has. I believe the US has lost this war and will only increase their losses if they still stay there. The longer they stay, the biggest the resistance will grow. That or a completely revamped strategy which nobody has been able to come up with.

I think you giving up too soon. Current the resistance decrease in Iraq. But nevertheless I suppose the US have to set a new objective in the Iraq. It is impossible to destroy the whole resistance. So it would be clever to define an objective, where the Iraq is stable and need no further foreign assistance to fight against the resistance. I think thats achievable for the US forces and the Iraq.

Good translation by the way.

Thank you. I wasnt sure that my translation is readable. :smile:

Hi, Roland...
Don't asked me, because I'm biased;-).... I'm so pleased you joined CC! To have a genuine German amongst us is very beneficial for us, it means we get a real sense of what the German people are thinking about us Canadians, the US and the rest of the world. You have only been here a very short time and already you are presenting good, complex topics for debate. I look eagerly forward for many more!!;-)

Wow! I am really overwhelmed by your heartiness! Thank you for this warm welcome :happy2: :cheers:
Hopefully I will not disappoint you, I have also bad days. :roll:

Usually one can find an article in the other language if you give the title or question in English into Google. That's what I was trying last night, to show you how to save yourself time, but, alas, I couldn't find McCains article in English. Instead, I found a few other amusing things about him!!:lol:

Thank you for the tip, that will help me to save some time in future Btw whats the meaning of "DNC" in the image from John, the Carribean Pirate, McCain?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
To be quite frank, I admired McCain for his stamina, his no-nonsense talk, not afraid to say what he thinks, BUT now that he is going for US presidency and I read your article, I'm alarmed about his aggressive stance and his honeying of the Europeans. One thing we must not forget... he is first and foremost interested and engaged for the benefit and welfare and world dominance of his country... the USA.

Indeed, but that are all candidates and US Presidents. And McCain pleasantly stick out from the current President. Clinton and Obama haven't up to now released their foreign-policy agenda. I wouldn't nurture false hopes in their agenda.

Mikey said it very clearly earlier and I, at this point, agree with him wholeheartedly. But, Roland, we shall see WHO will actually win the presidency... sofar it is mere speculation. One thing I fear, and that is manipulation, tampering and outright fraud at the polls. We already got a good dose of suspicion in New Hampshire, with Hillary pulling from way down to the top. Plus the fiasco in Florida years ago that simply declared Bush the winner! Done it once, they'll do it twice, especially if the race will be between Obama and McCain.

Today the Americans are able from 5 miles height, to bomb with surgical precision around the civilian people - but they cannot build machines that can count ballots :lol: ;-)

How's the weather in Germany? We just survived another winter storm!:roll: The tornadoes in the States end up here as SNOW storms, dumping between 30 to 35 centimeters on us!!

Hu, that sounds unpleasant and frosty in Canada :santa:
I live in Hamburg and we have a similar weather like London. So it is rainy, but as an inhabitant of a Hanseatic town I have to say: its not rainy, we have merely increased air-humidity ;-)

 

[dancing-loon]

Guten Morgen, Roland!
Du bist ja schon frueh auf, wie ich sehe!! Mit sechs Stunden hinter Euch her, mache ich mich jetzt gleich auf den Weg in die Heia!

Today the Americans are able from 5 miles height, to bomb with surgical precision around the civilian people - but they cannot build machines that can count ballots :lol: ;-)

Guter Witz! Du hast Humor... Menschen mit Humor sind mir sympatisch... ich lache und amuesiere mich gerne mal. So oft gibt es hier die drolligsten Ausdruecke zwischen Maennern, wenn sie sich kabbeln! Heisst es eigentlich kabbeln oder kappeln? Das will mir doch eben einfach nicht in den Sinn kommen! Kabbeln koennte Plattdeutsch sein, nich? Die canadischen Maenner sind nicht so leicht aus der Ruhe zu bringen wie die deutschen Hitzkoepfe, finde ich. Vielleicht wird Dir das auch noch auffallen nach einer Zeit.

Hu, that sounds unpleasant and frosty in Canada :santa:
I live in Hamburg and we have a similar weather like London. So it is rainy, but as an inhabitant of a Hanseatic town I have to say: its not rainy, we have merely increased air-humidity ;-)

Yes, that is actually true... all three Hansa cities are near the water, hence the moisture.
I enjoyed a fairly nice day today, with intermittent sunshine and the temperature around -4C. only.

You wanted to know what DNC stands for?.. this: Democratic National Committee

About Iraq... I haven't paid much attention lately, but read that the Iraqi governmant is struggling to function somehow. Here is an article: http://tinyurl.com/2swhsx

Fuer heute mache ich Feierabend... ist schon nach Mitternacht geworden!
I'll be back in the afternoon your time.

Gute Nacht!

 

[Andem]

Oh, I didnt wrote that German media sympathize with John McCain. Of course not. European and particularly German media favours Democratic candidates. I meant that German media characterize him as a liberal and left-winged in the Republican party.

Gut. Hab dich nicht ganz klar verstanden. Man kann immer sagen, wenn es rechte Politik in Europa gibt, wird es immer Liberal in den USA.. aber kann sein, daß er ein relativ liberale Republikaner ist. Was die menschen hier sagen, die US-Amerikanischen Politik sind ganz rechts stehend und naja überall doof!

Ganz klar, die Democrats sind immer vorgezogen... außer Polen vielleicht?

OT: How is HH these days? We drove out there around Christmas for some shopping and clubbing! Weather wasn't much worse than Berlin.

 

[darkbeaver]

I don't see that as fear-mongering.....if the US left Iraq, it would probably fall into the hands of extremists, either Sunni or Shi'ite.......then it would be a threat, whether or not Saddam was a threat.

The Surge worked..........violence in Iraq lessened immensely. more of the same is in order.......

The invasion of Iraq may well have been a collosal mistake, but it is done, and The USA now has the responsibility to stay and contribute whatever is necessary to stabilize that state..........to make the sacrifices worthwhile.

McCain is dead on.

Extremists, what like mass murderers torturers carpet bombing meglomaniacs who use napalm, phosphrous bombs and invade and occupy other countrys at will based on lies. Ya that would be terrible.

 

[Roland]

Extremists, what like mass murderers torturers carpet bombing meglomaniacs who use napalm, phosphrous bombs and invade and occupy other countrys at will based on lies. Ya that would be terrible.

What do you write? If the US withdraw now from Iraq, thats the end of this nation. Iraq will split in up to 3 parts: the Sunni, Shia and the Kurds. I hope you can imagine what then will happen. You have many more conflicts in this region. The Turks, Saudi-Arabia, Syria and Iran could join the war and the whole region is destabilized. Believe me, you will feel the consequences in Canada, too. When the oil price increased up to 250$ and more. A withdrawal could be so dangerous, that we will become such a economic recession like in 1920er. World-wide. THAT would be terrible!
Darkbeaver is that a fine solution?

Gut. Hab dich nicht ganz klar verstanden. Man kann immer sagen, wenn es rechte Politik in Europa gibt, wird es immer Liberal in den USA.. aber kann sein, daß er ein relativ liberale Republikaner ist. Was die menschen hier sagen, die US-Amerikanischen Politik sind ganz rechts stehend und naja überall doof!

Stimmt.

OT: How is HH these days? We drove out there around Christmas for some shopping and clubbing! Weather wasn't much worse than Berlin.

Weather is fine. But back to topic. What dou think about this what I wrote about John McCain in my posting before?

 

[darkbeaver]

What do you write? If the US withdraw now from Iraq, thats the end of this nation. Iraq will split in up to 3 parts: the Sunni, Shia and the Kurds. I hope you can imagine what then will happen. You have many more conflicts in this region. The Turks, Saudi-Arabia, Syria and Iran could join the war and the whole region is destabilized. Believe me, you will feel the consequences in Canada, too. When the oil price increased up to 250$ and more. A withdrawal could be so dangerous, that we will become such a economic recession like in 1920er. World-wide. THAT would be terrible!
Darkbeaver is that a fine solution?


Stimmt.




Weather is fine. But back to topic. What dou think about this what I wrote about John McCain in my posting before?

Well that is the coalitions positions and not the Iraqi resistance's opinion. The occupation always says the same thing Roland. How is it they existed in peace and prosperity before the invasion? The people of Iraq believe that when and if the invaders leave it will be a matter of weeks before they (the people) establish a peaceful resolution. Nothing an invading occupying force says can be trusted.

 

[Roland]

Well that is the coalitions positions and not the Iraqi resistance's opinion. The occupation always says the same thing Roland. How is it they existed in peace and prosperity before the invasion? The people of Iraq believe that when and if the invaders leave it will be a matter of weeks before they (the people) establish a peaceful resolution. Nothing an invading occupying force says can be trusted.

If you don't believe the Coalition, the facts speaks for itself. Everyone can see that Sunni and Shiites kills one another and much more Iraqi died in this fights, then Americans. So I would say, that there is much hate between Sunnis and Shiites. Why should they stop to kill another, when the Americans withdraw? The reasons for this hate dont lie in the occupation. In my eyes is the Iraq very unstable.
The Second fact is, that for example the Turks deployed about 100,000 soldiers on the border to northern Iraq. They are ready to invade the Kurdish areas. In the last months they attacked with bomber and artillery the PKK and the Kurdish militia. Turkish politicans and army generals threatens with an invasion and occupation of the northern Iraq. And it is not sure that they will occupy only the Kurdish regions. Today, many Turkish nationalists still hurts the loss of Mosul after WW1.
What do you think how the other neighbours will react after a Turkish occupation of northern Iraq?

My problem is, there are so much in all likelihood possibilities for a increasing crisis in and around the Iraq, that i think its a high risk, if the US forces withdraw yet. So I think John McCain is right, when he says its better if the US forces dont withdraw.

Btw, that the Iraqi government and his army and police is to weak to control these uproars, can we see day after day.

 

[dancing-loon]

Hello, Roland;
I could agree with you and say, the American troops MUST stay, BUT on the other hand I also feel that we shouldn't treat the Afghan people as if they were infantile, too backwards to conduct their own business of governing their country.
Don't you think they all realize, the Sunnies, the Shiites and the Kurds that they have only one country, so why destroy it even further? I trust them enough to know what they are doing.

One thing, though, is for sure.... the Americans owe them BIG, and the international community should hold the US to it to fix and rebuild that country, and pay for every drop of oil they have taken!!!!

America finally has to LEARN not always to meddle in other peoples' affairs... they should mind their own business!!!! This bullying game is too childish for intelligent people like the Americans.
My humble opinion!;-)

 

[Roland]

Hello, Roland;
I could agree with you and say, the American troops MUST stay, BUT on the other hand I also feel that we shouldn't treat the Afghan people as if they were infantile, too backwards to conduct their own business of governing their country.
Don't you think they all realize, the Sunnies, the Shiites and the Kurds that they have only one country, so why destroy it even further? I trust them enough to know what they are doing.

One thing, though, is for sure.... the Americans owe them BIG, and the international community should hold the US to it to fix and rebuild that country, and pay for every drop of oil they have taken!!!!

America finally has to LEARN not always to meddle in other peoples' affairs... they should mind their own business!!!! This bullying game is too childish for intelligent people like the Americans.
My humble opinion!;-)

I think you mean not the "Afghan people" but rather the "Iraqi people". I marked that in the quoting bold and italic.

That is not a question of childishness or backwardness of the Iraqi people. That is not the right description, what now happens in the Iraq. The Iraq is a hetereogeneous country with different races, languages, cultures, and religions, who ruled only one part of the society for many decades.

Like many heterogeneous countries before, was there a spark who inflames the powder-eck from a country full of contrasts. If there is not a strong solidly-united society, then begins the collapse of a state. The beginning of this is mostly angst/fear and less trust to the others. One group is scared to lost their identity, however they defines their identiy. For my part they see their identity founded in language, religion or nationality. Then they say we are under repression of another group. Mayby its right or not. Unfortunatly is that unimportant in such conflicts. Often are only lowly differences enough for a conflict.

You can see this now in Kenya, Rwanda and so on between different tribals/races or in Yugoslavia between different races and religions or in the USSR also between different races. In my hole opinion are also democracies not immune against this. But in democracies are these "identity fights" mostly (but not always...eg the Basque) without physical violence like the dispute between Scots and Englishmen or between Anglophonic and Frankophonic Canadians or between Blacks, Latins and Whites in the USA or between Catalans and Spains and so on.

So thats definitive NOT childish trivia what happens in the Iraq, this is a real serious conflict. And yes, I am satisfy to myself, that the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites are not able to conduct their own business. In cause of this conflict are thousands of dead persons and refugees, so much hate and distrust that I am not sure that they will come together and establish a new society and nation.

It is a question of time which solution we can find for this conflict. First we need the US forces to contain the fights between them. If we want a united Iraq, so we could establish a federation like in Canada. With three autonome regions, each of them like a "nation in the nation" (like Quebec). But for this we need a long time the US forces in the Iraq. Because we can await that it will gives much problems with the demarcation in cause of the ethnic cleaning in many areas and also problems with the nation building in the federal institutions.
If the USA wants a quick withrawal of their forces, we could establish a dictatorship who represses the different ethnic groups or the Iraqi neighbors (Turkey, Iran, Syria, Saudi-Arabia, Kuwait) share the Iraqui territory between them.
Btw that is the reason why the German Socialdemocrats and Greens/pacifists are so angry about the Bush Administration that the American disband the Iraqi army after the victory. These army could easily continue the former dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, so that we had no problems, like Bush senior did it. But George W. Bush wanted the democratization of the Iraq... He is too idealistic for the pragmatic-politicans :lol:

But you are right dancing-loon, it would be the best, they would not have attacked the Iraq. Sad, but I am sure they will only learn how to make it better for the future and other countries. Otherwise the USA will be criticize if they NOT makes a military interventions in conflicts, who happen a genocide or other war crimes, like in Kosovo or Rwanda. The hole thing is not easy, whats wrong, whats right...

 

[dancing-loon]

Hallo, Roland;

Dich hebe ich mir fuer morgen auf!!;-) Hab 'nen schoenen Sonntag!

 

[Roland]

Au weiha, da muß ich mich wohl auf etwas gefasst machen ;-)

 

[dancing-loon]

Au weiha, da muß ich mich wohl auf etwas gefasst machen ;-)

Jaaa.... hier kommt es!!8O;-):lol:

First, I apologize for the mix-up of the countries!! I did indeed mean Iraq and its people. You think that they will get even more at each others throat than they do now under American occupation? Right? My opinion is that they will come to their senses and not destroy each other but rather come to a consensus to share the one and only country they have... I truly trust in their common sense.
Also, if the Americans would leave, the other Arab countries will get more engaged and try to help as well... if not out of genuine good will, then out of spite to show the Americans and the World that they are capable of minding their own businesses.
My only worry is that the Americans will NEVER leave entirely and permanently!! To much is at stake for them and their protege, poor little Israel! Therefore, some other solution will have to be found... something where the Americans get to keep a few military bases and perhaps some say in establishing one central Government with equal representation from all three ethnic groups.
I could also envision an international commission to assist the Iraqis with establishing a functioning Central Government, as well as setting up regional Governments with enough power to satisfy their desire for self-determination, except to destroy each other. Could our Canada serve as an example? Our Federal Government gives the Provinces enough operating freedom as long as they don't want to "separate", But even that is possible!:roll:

Roland... consider the Iraqis' experiences under Saddam's rule... an iron-fist rule! They had to get along, there was no choice. But now, if the Americans let them, they would have the opportunity to TRY and get along out of free will and desire. Each group knows they will have to make some concessions, but will also reap peace and prosperity as a whole.

You mention the tribal rivalry in Africa... yes, it is true that they have a hard time because of corruption, but mostly because of outside interference.

In the USSR it is, at least in my opinion, not so much because of different races and religions, but rather their wish to get away from under the boot of Russia and the Kremlin's control. Also, again, big corruption runs rampant. Read about the Oligarchs as one example!!!

Your reasons for argument are excellent! No question! In the end you could be proven right, but I want to be positive and hope for a positive solution; I want to see the Iraqis live in harmony with each other and become eventually a shining nation. The opportunity would be there, if the Americans would stop to interfere on behalf of their own selfish desires.

You mention one should have left the Iraqi army intact and continue a dictatorship. Who, in your mind, should have taken the position as dictator?? You think to trade one dictator for another one would make the Iraqis happy and content? And where, in such a scenario, would the Americans fit in?? They went there with a purpose, Roland... not just for a Sunday morning stroll! Their aim was and still is to control the area and to enable Israel to "exist" and expand.
Btw., do you really think it is Bush jr. with his religious idealism who makes the decisions regarding the Middle East area? I don't think so! He is only the front-man acting his assigned role as the re-born Christian with fundamental beliefs, showing his humorous side and the ability to portray himself as just another ordinary American which, indeed, he is! He is likable!!

I certainly agree that the WHOLE thing is not easy, but I dare say it would get easier if conflicts wouldn't always be dealt with through force and destruction of civilian life and property. Instead, negotiations, diplomacy and good will should be given a chance and be applied far more often.

Now I come to your favorite candidate, John McCain!! I already mentioned earlier that I do like him as a person, but worry about his forceful military stance against adversaries.
Have a look at this article I've been holding in my mouse this whole time.

"He has made the decision to embrace the failed policies of George Bush's Washington," Obama said of McCain. "He speaks of a hundred-year war in Iraq and sees another on the horizon with Iran."

http://tinyurl.com/35dv5z

I, too, worry just like Obama, but youendorse his ideas and plans and hope he will win the presidency

Your turn now, Roland!:smile:

 

[dancing-loon]

Hi, Roland... I C your name at the bottom!! Are you getting ready??:lol:

 

[jimmoyer]

Hey Roland, good points my man.

I think McCain is very right on Iraq, despite my changing my view that the war was right in the first place.

The war was wrong.

But now Iraq deserves a second chance, to become a viable nation with a chance to prosper and live.

The hypocrisy of the world (on top of the hypocrisy of the US bungling and egotism) is that it doesn't give a rat's ass if Iraq succeeds out of these ashes.

The hyocrisy of the world is also evident that it does nothing on its own for Dafur, instead whimpering that not China (who subsides Sudan oil) but rather the US should do something.

Isn't that screwed up? Wishing the worst of all nations (the US) to do something about Darfur, when their own countries can't seem to find a way at all ??

IRONY and HYPOCRISY seemed to know no borders.

 

[MikeyDB]

And what was the state of the nation of Iraq before the United States invaded them? What were the numbers involved in internecine strife? Was there electricity and television? Was there fire and ambulance service? Weren't the people of Iraq far better off before the United States invaded them?

Iraq is a mess and the United States of America made it that way. Let's not forget who created this situation while we sing and clap about the reduction in violence...

The U.S. created a nexus for terrorism and somehow this thread would offer the opinion that something other than this situation were the case!

 

[MikeyDB]

Get this straight Roland....

The United States of America working on behalf of their government ruling body in Israel conducted a planning session to calculate the feasibility of invading Iraq long long before there was any noise about Sunni and Shia violence in Iraq. Long before there was any "urgent necessity" predicated on "stockpiles of WMDs" the war-mongering United States appeased the Israeli lobby by declaring the dire necessity of engaging the Islamic community of the world in a bloody war. Iraq did absolutely nothing to the people of the United States that the United States hasn't done to many other nations the world over. If paying Palestinian bombers to war terrorism on Israel is sufficient grounds to plan an invaision and reduce that nation to a simmering pile of rubble, then what is the position that people should accept with regard to any other number of situations where the U.S. has supplied weapons and intelligence to foment "regime-change"?

The administration of the United States is responsible for the terrorism in Iraq not the people of Iraq!

Get that straight!

It was the people of the United States that provided the opportunity for the situation in Iraq to get entirely out of hand.

Like their Likud masters, the people of the United States would far rather have terrorism identified on their terms and fought someplace other than America or Israel.

 

[I think not]

And what was the state of the nation of Iraq before the United States invaded them? What were the numbers involved in internecine strife? Was there electricity and television? Was there fire and ambulance service? Weren't the people of Iraq far better off before the United States invaded them?

Of course they were, as we all know living under a dictatorship adds far more to the quality of life than any other system known to man. :roll:

Iraq is a mess and the United States of America made it that way. Let's not forget who created this situation while we sing and clap about the reduction in violence...

Finally something we agree on.

The U.S. created a nexus for terrorism and somehow this thread would offer the opinion that something other than this situation were the case!

And it is preferable to keep everyone under fear, fear of walking on the street, fear of having your daugther raped by government officials, etc. etc. etc....

Yes MikeyDB, it was much more preferable to live under Saddam Hussein, much more.

 

[MikeyDB]

ITN

Blah Blah Blah....

Can you provide some factual data describing the conditions in Iraq prior to your nations war-mongering or like your politics and your media is bafflegab and pointless rhetoric your strong point?

Try to give us some indications based on fact ITN... Tell us how many tons of WMD were being hidden by the people who you bombed and killed over the past six years.

Facts ITN can you provide the people here at CC with solid evidence that the rates of street violence and robbery were as high (or if we're to believe nonsense like you suggest) or higher than it was after your nation "liberated" the people of Iraq?

Can you suggest that people who had water and electricity who had hospitals and schools are thankful for high-explosives raining down on them?

How removed are you from reality?

 

[MikeyDB]

Hey ITN.....

CNN just played a segment that informed Americans that American businessmen were selling defence secrets to the Chinese!

I'm sure it would make perfect sense for you to bomb New York or Washington to prevent your own citizens from supplying weapons information to the Chinese...wouldn't it?

Got to love the American Dream where "profit" even if it comes from selling weapons information and secret industrial agendas is perfectly OK!

Is there any truth to the rumor that the United States of America has massive stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction? Do we have further confirmation that the CIA the FBI the NSA and of course the Department of Homeland Security is on the job safeguarding military secrets from businessmen prepared to sell them to the Chinese or the Russians?

America....a tired old joke....

 

[dancing-loon]

Hi, Mikey,
do you mean this case?

Feds: U.S. defense analyst leaked secrets to China

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/11/espionage.indictments/index.html

He could face the death penalty like this guy:

Man Faces Death Penalty for Selling Defense Secrets

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/17156