Yellow card for Harper over Afghanistan.

[dancing-loon]

There has to be corruption going on in Afghanistan!! All those bumper crops of opium year after year despite massive crop-destroying efforts by NATO forces are a phenomenon!

I have tried to find out more about Hamid Karzaid's brothers, who are supposedly heavily involved in drug dealing! Whenever I type a question about drugs and Afghanistan into google, it tells me "Server not found". That is strange!
This is the only site I could access, seems to be from Russia, and describes the drug dealing going on in Afghanistan. I'll post it here for what it's worth, but it does confirm some of Cobalt_kid's view.

http://enews.ferghana.ru/article.php?id=2246

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

I've got a lot of my information from CBC radio and TV news, they're much more credible than the government who only really seem to want to hide the reality of what's going on over there.

According to some reports on CBC the head of the Afghani ministry responsible for controlling the drug trade is the biggest drug lord. This is from people who have been part of the government.

I'll look around online for some information, maybe the CBC archives have the story links.

I don't have any illusions about the situation, I realize the Taliban are hardly preferable to the Karzai government. It's ridiculous to claim we're working to support a western style democracy in Afghanistan though. Or that there's any real chance of peace in the region as long as the Pakistanis don't want Karzai and the Northern Alliance running Afghansitan. It was under Bhutto that the Pakistanis set up the Taliban to remove the same group that is sitting in power in Kabul right now, and Karzai was one of them at the start. We ignore the regional politics at our own peril, many Canadians will die and be injured before we finally figure out the futility of a mission that isn't dealing with the realities of the land. Bush and his people have shown with spectacular stupidity how little they understand the Muslim world, they've taken a dysfunctional Iraq and turned it into a slaughter house. Karzai is their man in Kabul and there's no way the surrounding Islamic states are going to allow him and his supporters to rule Afghanistan in peace. Especially not after all that has gone down in Iraq.

We're dealing with a religion that has resistance against outside threats as part of it's core beliefs, that's what Jihad is. We're not going to intimidate the Taliban into laying down arms, all further combat in Afghanistan is going to do is make the fundamentalists even more determined to fight back.

Look at Basra as an example, since the British have pulled out the fighting has gone down to almost nothing. These are old cultures that don't want to be told how to live by outsiders, it's only ignorance and arrogance that makes our leaders here in the west think we can impose our way of life on them.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Here yah go bear, why don't you tell me how I need to be proud of a military that's into this sort of behaviour.

http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/soa.htm

The United States Army School of the Americas, located at

Fort Benning, adjacent to Columbus, Georgia, trains commissioned and non-commissioned officers from Latin American militaries. Many of its graduates have returned to their home countries and committed such atrocities as rapes, disappearances, torture, and assassination; they have organized death squads and paramilitaries to counter insurgencies and maintain power. The SOA is accused of including torture in its curriculum, an accusation its defenders deny, although such a torture manual released to the public in 1991. The "Hall of Fame" at the SOA includes dictators and human rights abusers, and a number of guest instructors were invited to the school's faculty after they had committed atrocities.

The US militray has a long history of contempt for the rights of non-combatants going back to the erradication of the native Americans. I'm sorry to say that one of my ancestors who was half native himself participated in that. Or the Phillipines geurilla campaign where one US commander ordered that "all males over 12 are to be killed". Even in Korea there was little concern for the civilians. During the rapid advance by the north in 1950 US forces killed many fleeing Korean civilians for fear some were infiltrating communists. Or how about Vietnam where over 1 million civilians were killed as the US tried to prop up succeedingly more and more corrupt regimes, much in the same way it has tried in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And go ahead and accuse me of being anti-American, I don't care. My roots there go back to before the nation even existed on my white side and thousand of years on my native American side. I know it can be a better place, but not as long as the people who think they have the right to decide if others have the right to exist or not are allowed to lead. Like the US is doing now in Iraq and in Afghanistan with our help.

So blow your horn buddy, just stick it in your own ear next time not mine.

 

[dancing-loon]

I've got a lot of my information from CBC radio and TV news, they're much more credible than the government who only really seems to want to hide the reality of what's going on over there.

You believe our government knows as much as we folks do here at the forum? I keep thinking there must be a hidden reason why Harper pushes to renew our contract there, something we don't know. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to drain our resources there for what? The reason given to us to help the Afghanis out of the stone age I can't believe.
One of our military bosses said once, we could be there for decades. At this rate I believe him.

According to some reports on CBC the head of the Afghani ministry responsible for controlling the drug trade is the biggest drug lord. This is from people who have been part of the government.

Yes, I read that too, some time ago. Also two ministers got murdered. It is still a very shaky, slightly corrupt and inefficient apparatus. Karzai himself is an oil man, coming from UNICAL, which in turn is one of the main bidders for building that pipe line to the Gulf.

I'll look around online for some information, maybe the CBC archives have the story links.

If it is not too much trouble, that would be nice and appreciated.

I don't have any illusions about the situation, I realize the Taliban are hardly preferable to the Karzai government. It's ridiculous to claim we're working to support a western style democracy in Afghanistan though.

The reasons given to the common "Volk" are usually never the actual ones. With us they play on our sympathies for the poor Afghans, the poor Iraqis etc. Most of us fall for it, that's the sad part.
I read a report in German recently that stated the Afghans are a very proud, self-reliant people... they don't like and don't want to be taken care off by us Westerners. Why must the whole world be modeled to western societies? Cultural diversity is the salt of the world. If I was to travel to Afghanistan, I don't want to see a Walmart or MacDonald or modern sky scrapers there!

Or that there's any real chance of peace in the region as long as the Pakistanis don't want Karzai and the Northern Alliance running Afghanistan. It was under Bhutto that the Pakistanis set up the Taliban to remove the same group that is sitting in power in Kabul right now, and Karzai was one of them at the start.

I don't know any of that... am relatively new at politics, although I find it fascinating.

We ignore the regional politics at our own peril, many Canadians will die and be injured before we finally figure out the futility of a mission that isn't dealing with the realities of the land.

I agree wholeheartedly! We are fools to be thinking we can fix their problems. What puzzles me is that our Generals are all for it! That fact makes me wonder and ponder over the question WHY? What do they see and know I don't? And so we are back at the beginning of this thread. Our feeling is that the politicians are not open and honest with us. To say, it's up to the military to tell us about the Afghan prisoners, is ridiculous! Harper and company is just yawning and pretending the whole thing is passe, unimportant. No, it isn't to a lot of us citizens.

Bush and his people have shown with spectacular stupidity how little they understand the Muslim world, they've taken a dysfunctional Iraq and turned it into a slaughter house. Karzai is their man in Kabul and there's no way the surrounding Islamic states are going to allow him and his supporters to rule Afghanistan in peace. Especially not after all that has gone down in Iraq.

The Americans know only one thing, and that is brutal force! Their war machine can plow anything over and under! Lives don't matter! They themselves have never experienced a devastating war on their own soil... they simply cannot feel empathy for and with the enemy, because they don't know what it feels like to be trampled on.
Honestly, Cobalt Kid, I do not know what drives them, what satisfaction do they get out of it? I hope it's not pride!

We're dealing with a religion that has resistance against outside threats as part of it's core beliefs, that's what Jihad is. We're not going to intimidate the Taliban into laying down arms, all further combat in Afghanistan is going to do is make the fundamentalists even more determined to fight back.

Yes, and more and more countries get drawn into it. We already have a wildfire out of control. I know, I'm powerless to stop the war trend, but I will at least not support it with my voice.

Look at Basra as an example, since the British have pulled out the fighting has gone down to almost nothing.

Good! That proves we should leave, too!

These are old cultures that don't want to be told how to live by outsiders, it's only ignorance and arrogance that makes our leaders here in the west think we can impose our way of life on them.

Well stated! We only need to turn the poker stick around and have the Afghans come and tell us what music to play!

P.S. There is something wrong with my server! It's not the KGB up the street!!:lol: I hope it will fix itself by tomorrow..

 

[Walter]

So why are we there protecting the rest of them?

Being in Afghanistan is dangerous, not being in Afghanistan is more dangerous
Ban Ki-Moon

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon writes of the the achievements and challenges facing NATO and the UN in their Afghan mission.

Afghanistan is a potent symbol of the costs inherent in abandoning nations to the lawless forces of anarchy. That alone justifies international efforts to help rebuild the country. Lest there be any doubt, remember Sept. 11, 2001, and its worldwide reverberations. We learned then how a country, shorn of its civic institutions, becomes a vacuum to be filled by criminals and opportunists. In its chaos and poverty, Afghanistan became a home base for terrorism.
Must we learn that lesson all over again? The past six years have seen a massive international partnership to rebuild Afghanistan's state institutions. A modern constitution was adopted after widespread popular consultations. Presidential and parliamentary elections were held. Three million refugees returned from decades of exile. Clearly, a large majority of the population supports the international community's efforts on Afghans' behalf.
Yet, this progress is in jeopardy. Once again, the opportunists are on the rise, seeking anew to make Afghanistan a lawless place — a locus of instability, terrorism and drug trafficking. Their means are desperate: suicide bombs, kidnappings, the killing of government officials and hijacking of aid convoys. Almost more dismaying is the response of some outside Afghanistan, who react by calling for a disengagement or the full withdrawal of international forces. This would be a misjudgment of historic proportions, the repetition of a mistake that has already had terrible consequences.
The United Nations has been in Afghanistan for many decades. Our institutional memory stretches back to the traumas of the Taliban, and beyond to the era when rival militias battled one another for the meagre spoils of a country broken by civil war. Our hopes for the future look to a day when Afghan state institutions stand on their own, able to tackle with dignity the difficult tasks of reconstruction and development while providing security and justice within secure borders.
I believe that day is within reach. We cannot let it be lost to the inhuman violence of today's insurgents.
For all the frustrations and periodic setbacks, I am heartened by the strong and sustained international support given to Afghanistan. Security concerns notwithstanding, there has been obvious progress. Girls' school enrolment has increased dramatically in the past five years. Six million children are in schools today, compared to less than a million under the Taliban. More than five million children have been immunized against polio, crucial not only for them, but also for our fight to eradicate polio worldwide. Half a million Afghans have gained access to safe water.
New roads are helping farmers get produce to markets. Afghan farmers are meeting 95 per cent of the country's grain needs; in 2001, the figure was less than 50 per cent. The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, created following the 2001 Bonn Agreement, now has nine provincial offices, actively promoting human rights. Under the Taliban, women's participation in public and political life was non-existent. Today, 28 per cent of the seats in parliament are held by women.
The United Nations, alongside national and international counterparts, non-governmental organizations and Afghan civil society, will continue to provide the Afghan government whatever assistance it needs to build on these achievements. Our collective success depends on the continuing presence of the International Security Assistance Force, commanded by NATO and helping local governments in nearly every province to maintain security and carry out reconstruction projects.
In December, the Afghan National Army, supported by ISAF forces, reclaimed the town of Musa Qala in the southern province of Helmand, occupied by insurgents since February of 2007, and a major poppy-growing area. Significantly, it was led by the Afghan army and carried out at the request of the local population. At long last, development work can begin anew in Musa Qala.
The Afghan government has far to go before it regains control of its own destiny. But that day will come. It is hard work. There is little glory. It requires sacrifices. And that is why we are there.
Ban Ki-moon is Secretary-General of the United Nations.

 

[Walter]

3.5 million dead Afghans since the American invasion because of direct and indirect warfare.

I thought there were more dead.

 

[Walter]

they use to play how long can you hold a set grenade before throwing it. Pull the pin latch the spoon and hold it as long as they could before they had to throw it and it blew up. Thats nuts...

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode.

 

[Walter]

The US militray has a long history of contempt for the rights of non-combatants going back to the erradication of the native Americans. I'm sorry to say that one of my ancestors who was half native himself participated in that. Or the Phillipines geurilla campaign where one US commander ordered that "all males over 12 are to be killed". Even in Korea there was little concern for the civilians. During the rapid advance by the north in 1950 US forces killed many fleeing Korean civilians for fear some were infiltrating communists. Or how about Vietnam where over 1 million civilians were killed as the US tried to prop up succeedingly more and more corrupt regimes, much in the same way it has tried in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Every country's military has participated in atrocities whether we know about them or not, this is why enlightened countries have civilian powers in control of the military.

 

[dancing-loon]

Every country's military has participated in atrocities whether we know about them or not, this is why enlightened countries have civilian powers in control of the military.

Thank you, Walter, for your contributions to this subject. Especially, I appreciate the speech by Ban Ki-Moon you shared with us. I respect and trust him more than our own government. His explanation, why we should be there does have some validity and makes sense. That has always been my stumbling block - to see a good reason - not a reason to enhance Western interests and greed. Unfortunately, it does look like an American enterprise for gain! And it also looks like Canada is there, because we are an ally of the Americans and are afraid of possible retaliations, if we weren't. Being directly next door to the mightiest nation on earth right now, it would bring their wrath down on us, if we decided to stay neutral.
So... caught between a rock and a hard place, Harper has decided to follow the Americans.

Walter, I now wish you could in a kind and understanding way show me how wrong I am in my suspicious thinking. Please! I want to be in harmony with my country's leadership, ... want to know our young soldiers are being sacrificed for a noble cause, as they keep telling us, and not for corporate greed. Tell me and convince me that there is no other way than war!
If you yourself in your heart know better than I do.... share that knowledge with me, please.

 

[CDNBear]

Names not skippy, do you really understand? How about the 30,000 or so people that were disappeared in Argentina. Abducted and tortured by the military (mostly naval officers) then drugged, zipped into sleeping bags loaded into Herks then dropped into the Atlantic outside the territorial boundary. How about that nasty chainsaw massacre in southern Mexico where over 100 died. All this and so much more including the death squads was the responsibility of graduates of a US school for Paramilitaries. Funded by a nation that's now going to erradicate terrorism in the world? Maybe they should shut the school down for starters.

I have an ex Argentine Army Office as a close friend, you don't suppose he might have filled me in on what made him abandon his post and move to Canada do you?

I didn't need to be there to know how brutal a war it was, the Muslims got their asses kicked because we wouldn't let them have heavy arms while the Serbs could get whatever they needed from the old Yugoslavian army stocks or from the Russians. Sounds fair to me.

Who fed the Croats arms when 1.8 million Serbs fell under their boots?

The UN set up safe zones for the Bosnians then bugged out whenever things got too hot. How many were massacred at Screbrenica again, 7,000? People with AKs and molotov cocktails going up against Soviet era MBTs and Hinds with heavy artillery backup, sounds pretty onesided to me. How about Serb deathcamps too, anything else you want to inform me on, you seem to think you know so much.

Here'e the difference between you and me, I don't think I know more then you, I know I know more then you.

But since the truth has already revealed itself to you, is there a point to this conversation?

It's called a viewpoint, I don't care if you agree with me or not. And I'm sure as hell aren't going to be TOLD how to think by you or a government that doesn't give a damn about my rights or opinions anyway.

I didn't think I had told you how to think, I think I might have insinutaed you needed to some of your own though. If not, please do.

Until the next election, that is one nice thing about living in a democracy.:smile:

I've got a lot of my information from CBC radio and TV news, they're much more credible than the government who only really seem to want to hide the reality of what's going on over there.

That explains everything.

Here yah go bear, why don't you tell me how I need to be proud of a military that's into this sort of behaviour.

http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/soa.htm



The US militray has a long history of contempt for the rights of non-combatants going back to the erradication of the native Americans. I'm sorry to say that one of my ancestors who was half native himself participated in that. Or the Phillipines geurilla campaign where one US commander ordered that "all males over 12 are to be killed". Even in Korea there was little concern for the civilians. During the rapid advance by the north in 1950 US forces killed many fleeing Korean civilians for fear some were infiltrating communists. Or how about Vietnam where over 1 million civilians were killed as the US tried to prop up succeedingly more and more corrupt regimes, much in the same way it has tried in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And go ahead and accuse me of being anti-American, I don't care. My roots there go back to before the nation even existed on my white side and thousand of years on my native American side. I know it can be a better place, but not as long as the people who think they have the right to decide if others have the right to exist or not are allowed to lead. Like the US is doing now in Iraq and in Afghanistan with our help.

So blow your horn buddy, just stick it in your own ear next time not mine.

You might want to take a big old step closer to that horn, it might just wake ya up.

I think we're talking about Canada, in Afghanistan, not the US in South America, Vietnam or anywhere else for that matter.

Really though, this conversation is an exercise in futility, some people told you what to think, the left leaning MSM told you they were right and poof, here you are.

I see I'm out gunned by someone who thinks he thinks and therefore is.

 

[Zzarchov]

You aren't SERIOUSLY trying to defend Serb actions on the grounds that in the Balkans everyone has history of murdering everyone else are you CNDBear?

Regardless of who started it, the serbs were the one caught with their hand in the genocide jar. Maybe the Ethnic Albanians started it, who cares. Still not an excuse for death camps, if anything it solidifies that the nation needs to be carved into pieces if they can't play nice. Why are they even a nation? Why do you want to rule over someone you want to murder?

 

[CDNBear]

You aren't SERIOUSLY trying to defend Serb actions on the grounds that in the Balkans everyone has history of murdering everyone else are you CNDBear?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

My point is everybody seems to take a side and negates the evils of others, blinded by either the ilusions foisted by the MSM or some bent ideology.

Regardless of who started it, the serbs were the one caught with their hand in the genocide jar. Maybe the Ethnic Albanians started it, who cares. Still not an excuse for death camps, if anything it solidifies that the nation needs to be carved into pieces if they can't play nice. Why are they even a nation? Why do you want to rule over someone you want to murder?

I agree.

Let me explain this to you, like is was explained to me by Zoran the Serb as he looked at his home razed by a fire set by his neighbours and once close friends...

"If I don't get along with, I don't kill you, I don't try to destroy you, I walk away. Why can't everybody do that, what did * I * do to them?"

Seems not all the Serbs wanted to taste blood.

Now, how about the other ugly that took place at that time that the world wanted to ignore. Romeo Dallaire is my personal hero. I shook his once and it still makes me cry.

Z, the world is filled with ugly. No one side is free of evil. The very people Cobalt defends, like the French played a huge role in what happend in Rwanda, yet they chose not to participate in Iraq. Big fricking deal. Oh how Saintly they are. That must surely obsolve them of their complicity to genocide.