Yellow card for Harper over Afghanistan.

[EastSideScotian]

Well where do your weapons come from? Who's choppers do you fly in on? Who do you call in for an air strike? This years poppy crop will be bigger than last, so we can't even conduct sucessful war on a phuckin plant let alone rebelious land owners. If our mission is clearly different how come we don't see the difference clearly. Is it a state secret?

Ummm we actully make our own weapons... The Majority actully.. Who do usally call the dutch..sometimes the Americans...for air strikes...we call it fast air...and when we call them in we choose the target...not the americans or dutch. do you know why the poopy crop is going to be bigger? Because Afghanistan wants to start useing poopys for over the counter drugs, like Morphine and codine.....so they can make some liget money... so we have to stop firebombing them and salting them...Helicopters do we fly in? ha....who ever wants to fly us, which is rare unless its mountian ops...do you know why we fly in them? so we dont have to take the IED coverd roads and lose more of our own soldiers...thats why we are getting a bunch of our own heavy lift choppers so we dont have to do so many of our resupplies by convoy and so we dont have to take building materail on the roads...anything on the roads really...its safer for your fellow Canadian that way...Our mission statement is differant..why dont you use the same internet you use to get you crazy CIA conspirosy theroyes and check em out. we fight for the good of the Afghan people and we do make progress...Girls in school, womans rights, woman in parlament, freedom of speech, more trade, water, irragation systems, materials funding, our own proffesionals trainning afghans to run business teaching them how to create industry makeing them proud to be a self suffciant country once we are gone no longer under a regime, who goal is to sell drugs to fund terrism, and to poision Eruopeans, to fund Pakistani and Irani intellgence, and other long arms like Hezbollah and Those like them. we lose lives to make theirs better, war is war and not evrything is pretty but in the end hopefuly the outcome will be.

 

[earth_as_one]

I agree an Airborne regiment specializing in commando raids and guerilla warfare aren't suited to a peacekeeping mission and it was a mistake to send them.

But the kid was maybe guilty of attempted thievery. Canadian soldiers tortured the 16 year old and posed for pictures next to his bloodied and beaten body as he died.

Details of the case
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DC1230F934A15752C1A962958260

That event was a disgrace to Canada as well as our armed forces. If you don't understand why torturing a 16 year old to death for attempted theft is a disgrace, then I sure hope you don't catch 16 year old kid trying to steal your car, or spray painting graffiti on your fence.

 

[EastSideScotian]

My Uncle was Airborne, they were killing machines not Peace Keepers, they use to play how long can you hold a set grenade before throwing it. Pull the pin latch the spoon and hold it as long as they could before they had to throw it and it blew up. Thats nuts...

 

[earth_as_one]

Also would you please explain to me the difference between human beings in Afghanistan and human beings in Canada. I don't understand the difference. I think people are people. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

[CDNBear]

I agree an Airborne regiment specializing in commando raids and guerilla warfare aren't suited to a peacekeeping mission and it was a mistake to send them.

But the kid was maybe guilty of attempted thievery. Canadian soldiers tortured the 16 year old and posed for pictures next to his bloodied and beaten body as he died.

Details of the case
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DC1230F934A15752C1A962958260

Already know all about it, thanx anyways.

And like I said, if I caught him in the wire, he would have had three chances to ID himself, then I would have shot him...period.

That event was a disgrace to Canada as well as our armed forces. If you don't understand why torturing a 16 year old to death for attempted theft is a disgrace, then I sure hope you don't catch 16 year old kid trying to steal your car, or spray painting graffiti on your fence.

You're right...

I have a nice large freezer, a friend that owns the local rentall shop (woodchipper, no paper trail) and a really close friend with a pig/sheep farm.

Get the picture?

One less scumbag to worry about.

 

[CDNBear]

Also would you please explain to me the difference between human beings in Afghanistan and human beings in Canada. I don't understand the difference. I think people are people. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

You asked...

If our soldiers come to see inhuman treatment of prisoners as normal behavior, how will they behave when they come home?

Do you not know the difference between the enemy and people walking on the streets of Toronto?

Do you not know the difference between a combat zone and that of the downtown core of any Canadian city?

Do I really have to explain it? Because if i do, I don't think it will make a lick of difference. You either get it or you don't and no amount of explaination is going to get you to see the difference.

 

[earth_as_one]

Random bullets kill random people in Toronto and Kabul. Kind hearted people live in both Ontario and Khandahar. I expect Canadian soldier to maintain their dignity and professionalism, regardless of where they are. The country I live in and love respects international laws, treaties and conventions and I don't want that to change.

Just because a soldier is in a war zone doesn't change the fact that they are obligated to respect fundamental human rights. Just because are adversaries are willing to act as savages, doesn't mean our soldiers can do likewise.

I expect our soldiers to maintain their discipline regardless of what they might encounter. That is what they have been trained to do. The only exception is that survival comes first. I won't judge someone who acts savagely while fighting for their life. But that's not what happened in Somalia. Beating a kid to death after he has been disarmed and taken into custody was a disgrace. You either understand that or you don't.

 

[CDNBear]

Random bullets kill random people in Toronto and Kabul. Kind hearted people live in both Ontario and Khandahar. I expect Canadian soldier to maintain their dignity and professionalism, regardless of where they are. The country I live in and love respects international laws, treaties and conventions and I don't want that to change.

And I whole heartedly agree...to an extent.

Just because a soldier is in a war zone doesn't change the fact that they are obligated to respect fundamental human rights. Just because are adversaries are willing to act as savages, doesn't mean our soldiers can do likewise.

Wrong, in a combat zone, the Charter of rights and freedoms doesn't exist.

Hell a Soldier isn't even protected by it, let alone should the enemy be.

I expect our soldiers to maintain their discipline regardless of what they might encounter. That is what they have been trained to do. The only exception is that survival comes first. I won't judge someone who acts savagely while fighting for their life. But that's not what happened in Somalia. Beating a kid to death after he has been disarmed and taken into custody was a disgrace. You either understand that or you don't.

And I do understand.

Which is why I would have shot an intruder in the parimeter wire. Sure I may have posed for a couples snapshots with my first confirmed kill, but I wouldn't have tortured him. He likely didn't have any vital intel, therefore not really worth the effort.

 

[earth_as_one]

...Wrong, in a combat zone, the Charter of rights and freedoms doesn't exist...

I agree that Afghanis don't have charter rights. But international laws, treaties and conventions do apply. Our soldiers must respect these things, even if our adversaries don't. That's what makes us better than them. If we lower ourselves to their level, we loose our moral superiority and we are no better than them.

Its not enough to defeat our adversaries militarily. To have a lasting effect on the region we have to prove we are better that they are morally and ethically. Otherwise we are just another savage hostile invasion force. As a proud Canadian, I'd like to think we are better than adversaries by every measure.

 

[CDNBear]

I agree that Afghanis don't have charter rights. But international laws, treaties and conventions do apply. Our soldiers must respect these things, even if our adversaries don't. That's what makes us better than them. If we lower ourselves to their level, we loose our moral superiority and we are no better than them.

True, but our body count will be higher.

I say damn the torpedo's, full steam ahead.

I'm not a huge fan of the RoE or QSO. It makes being an efficient killing machine so much more difficult.

Its not enough to defeat our adversaries militarily. To have a lasting effect on the region we have to prove we are better that they are morally and ethically. Otherwise we are just another savage hostile invasion force. As a proud Canadian, I'd like to think we are better than adversaries by every measure.

We are and I think we would still be even if we dropped the handcuffs placed upon us by antiquated rules, created when uniformed Armies faced off.

This is the new war...not to be confused with the new coke which was a flop.

This is Guerilla tactics, street to street, house to house. There is no hearts and minds to win, we must crush the insurgents and the Taliban where ever they hide.

Where ever they hide.

 

[earth_as_one]

True, but our body count will be higher.

I say damn the torpedo's, full steam ahead.

I'm not a huge fan of the RoE or QSO. It makes being an efficient killing machine so much more difficult.

We are and I think we would still be even if we dropped the handcuffs placed upon us by antiquated rules, created when uniformed Armies faced off.

This is the new war...not to be confused with the new coke which was a flop.

This is Guerilla tactics, street to street, house to house. There is no hearts and minds to win, we must crush the insurgents and the Taliban where ever they hide.

Where ever they hide.

Look at this from the viewpoint of Afghanis. If Canadian soldiers act as savages, how will they view us? Are our values better than those of the Taliban?

The handcuffs must stay on even if it means more Canadian casualties. This is a war for the hearts and minds of the Afghanis. If the majority of Afghanis side with Canadians, they will be our best source of intelligence. They will tell us who are our adversaries are and where they are hiding. We cannot underestimate the value of winning hearts and minds. Aghanis have to believe Canadian soldiers are their best friends and they must trust us. They must percieve us as tough but fair, honest and trustworthy. They have to believe that if they turn in a member of the Taliban (who might be a friend or family), they will be treated humanely and with respect.

So absolutely, the way Canadian soldiers conduct themselves is crucial to the longterm success of the mission. In this mission Canadians should demand that Canadian soldiers have the best training and equipment available to carry out this mission. We should also expect that our solders along with NATO soldiers are deployed in sufficient numbers to overwhelm our adversaries.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[CDNBear]

Look at this from the viewpoint of Afghanis. If Canadian soldiers act as savages, how will they view us? Are our values better than those of the Taliban?

Yep, even if we took the cuffs off, we'ld still be head and shoulders above those duechbags.

The handcuffs must stay on even if it means more Canadian casualties. This is a war for the hearts and minds of the Afghanis. If the majority of Afghanis side with Canadians, they will be our best source of intelligence. They will tell us who are our adversaries are and where they are hiding. We cannot underestimate the value of winning hearts and minds. Aghanis have to believe Canadian soldiers are their best friends and they must trust us. They must percieve us as tough but fair, honest and trustworthy. They have to believe that if they turn in a member of the Taliban (who might be a friend or family), they will be treated humanely and with respect.

I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion.

So absolutely, the way Canadian soldiers conduct themselves is crucial to the longterm success of the mission. In this mission Canadians should demand that Canadian soldiers have the best training and equipment available to carry out this mission. We should also expect that our solders along with NATO soldiers are deployed in sufficient numbers to overwhelm our adversaries.

OK, now we're talking the same language.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Damn skippy Earth!!!

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

37%....seems like there is a reason we arent withdrawing then eh?

The Detainees issue....isnt that big of an Issue...Oh no the ANA treats them badly thats against the Geneva convetion....I dont want to sound heartless but...Since when Did IEDS fall in with the Geneva convention...or Suicide Bombings...We follow the Geneva convention to a tee. if the ANA wants out prisoners fine take them..treat them under Afghan law...its there people...soo why should we protect them if they are no longer in our custody?

Like hell the detainee issue isn't a big issue, by sending captives into an environment where they may be tortured or executed without trial we're part of the chain of responsibility and under international law can be held accountable.

This could leave our troops open to arrest and prosecution as they travel through European countries. Italy has begun criminal proceedings against CIA operatives who have sent suspects into torture in other countries and Germany has done the same against top US officials.

Canada sent troops to the Balkans to help stop this sort of violation of human rights, just because Cheney and Addington decide that the Geneva Conventions are "quaint" doesn't mean they still don't have judicial power behind them, especially in Europe. And they'll both be gone from power in less than a year, what happens then when people start taking a much closer look at what's been going on for the last six years?

How the hell can we send Serbs and Rwandans to face trial in the Hague and then decide it's OK if the Afgani government tortures or murders captives we send to them? The Conservative government knew from its own reports that this has been going on since the summer of 2006 but they chose to look the other way. I think Canadians should do the same to them when it comes time to choose a real government.

 

[CDNBear]

Like hell the detainee issue isn't a big issue, by sending captives into an environment where they may be tortured or executed without trial we're part of the chain of responsibility and under international law can be held accountable.

Ya, and you know so much better then someone who is actually training to enter that theater...Ummm, not.

He explained it clear enough that my 12 year old got it.

First they'ld have to prove that any Canadian Service personnel in the chain of custody know beyond reasonable doubt that the person would meet harm.

And since we have demanded and thusly set up an open door policy with Afghan officials, that would be hard to prove.

Besides that, I wouldn't care. Europes full of cheese eating surrender monkey's anyways. Highly over rated lot.

This could leave our troops open to arrest and prosecution as they travel through European countries. Italy has begun criminal proceedings against CIA operatives who have sent suspects into torture in other countries and Germany has done the same against top US officials.

Which only highlights the stupidity that is the weak kneed European phylosophy.

Canada sent troops to the Balkans to help stop this sort of violation of human rights, just because Cheney and Addington decide that the Geneva Conventions are "quaint" doesn't mean they still don't have judicial power behind them, especially in Europe. And they'll both be gone from power in less than a year, what happens then when people start taking a much closer look at what's been going on for the last six years?

What you know about the Balkans wouldn't sink a thimble in a pool of propane.

How the hell can we send Serbs and Rwandans to face trial in the Hague and then decide it's OK if the Afgani government tortures or murders captives we send to them? The Conservative government knew from its own reports that this has been going on since the summer of 2006 but they chose to look the other way. I think Canadians should do the same to them when it comes time to choose a real government.

Again, what you know ain't much.

In the next post are you going to call me and Harper a Nazi?

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Yah, and Milosevic had plausible deniability by saying it was the regional Serb leaders and Paramilitaries who were responsible. He still ended up killing himself while awaiting trial in a cell in the Hague.

It didn't take much to see through that smokescreen and the Canadian government had its own report in 2006 that indicated there was a high degree of likelyhood that prisoners turned over to the Afghani government would be tortured or killed and the information was released to the press almost a year ago. It's not like we didn't know this has been going on from the start. What do we do when relatives of the tortured and deceased start showing up and pointing fingers our way, play stupid?

And even if there can't be a direct line of responsibility established, this isn't what we're there for. We've gotten involved in a tribal struggle that goes back god knows how far and neither side has any claim to a moral high ground. I don't give a damn whether or not we can be held legally accountable, Canadians are about protecting human rights, not violating them.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

And since we have demanded and thusly set up an open door policy with Afghan officials, that would be hard to prove.

Open door policy, what a joke. The local human rights monitoring agency is funded by the Afgan government, if they actually do their job and find out how prisoners are treated they'll get shut down. You're living in a fantasy world if you think there's any real democracy and accountability in the Karzai government. Bull**** propaganda from the Bush and Harper governments aside, we're talking about a former CIA bagman supported by some of the most brutal warlords and drug dealers you're ever likely to run into. It's no surprise that most of the heroin on our streets comes from Afghanistan now. Wonderful job we're doing making the world safe for scum like that.

Besides that, I wouldn't care. Europes full of cheese eating surrender monkey's anyways. Highly over rated lot.

Most of the European nations weren't stupid enough to by into Bushs moronic "War on Terrorism". You ever study the US School of the Americas and the devastating effect it's had all across Latin America. It makes Al Qaeda look like a debating society by comparison. And besides most of the money and personel that went into the 9/11 attacks are from Saudi Arabia, why the hell are we pounding the crap out of some dirt farmers in southern Afghanistan while we ignore the Wahabi pricks who spend millions each year funding the madrasa schools that are training the young people who attack us.

Which only highlights the stupidity that is the weak kneed European phylosophy.
What you know about the Balkans wouldn't sink a thimble in a pool of propane.

Bet I know more than you when it come to the Balkans. It's the worlds mixing pot, both for religion and ethnically. After the fall of Constantinople much of it came under the control of the Turks which set the ground for the fighting in Bosnia Hercegovinia. It's also where the Slavic world meets the west, many Serbs indenitfy more closely with Russians than they do with the Europe. It's one of the reasons Milosevic felt he had so much power, his big brother to the east was always there to back him up. Hell, it's one of the reasons WW I started, the Serb Black Hand society was trying to gain independence from Austro-Hungary and was bumping off people who stood in the way. When they assassinated the Austrian heir to the throne it was the final straw, the Austrians declared war on Serbia, the Russians delcared war on the Austrians to protect the Serbs, the Germans delcared war on the Russians to back their allies and on and on. I could go on but what the point, you've got it all figured out, why bother with annoying things like facts.

Again, what you know ain't much.

In the next post are you going to call me and Harper a Nazi?

Again, it's enough to know when I'm being screwed and that's exactly what the Harper government is doing to Canadians in general by not being honest about...well almost everything. We're experiencing government by stealth and it has no place in a western democracy. Especially when the lives of our troops are at stake in a dirty war that has no end in site.

And no you're not a Nazi.

My grandfather was a Canadian vet from both WWs and I used to have a very high regard for our men and women who are and have served. The way they're allowing themselves to be used now by a Conservative government that has no respect for the people of this or any other country for that matter saddens and shames me.

 

[CDNBear]

Open door policy, what a joke. The local human rights monitoring agency is funded by the Afgan government, if they actually do their job and find out how prisoners are treated they'll get shut down. You're living in a fantasy world if you think there's any real democracy and accountability in the Karzai government. Bull**** propaganda from the Bush and Harper governments aside, we're talking about a former CIA bagman supported by some of the most brutal warlords and drug dealers you're ever likely to run into. It's no surprise that most of the heroin on our streets comes from Afghanistan now. Wonderful job we're doing making the world safe for scum like that.

Perhaps you missed the part about the fact that it would be Canadians doing the checking in...don't worry, I know how difficult it is to see through the ideology blinders.

Most of the European nations weren't stupid enough to by into Bushs moronic "War on Terrorism". You ever study the US School of the Americas and the devastating effect it's had all across Latin America. It makes Al Qaeda look like a debating society by comparison. And besides most of the money and personel that went into the 9/11 attacks are from Saudi Arabia, why the hell are we pounding the crap out of some dirt farmers in southern Afghanistan while we ignore the Wahabi pricks who spend millions each year funding the madrasa schools that are training the young people who attack us.

Ya that's it.

btw, I probly know more about South America then I know about the Balkans, hence my several threads on US interferance and corruption there.

Bet I know more than you when it come to the Balkans. It's the worlds mixing pot, both for religion and ethnically. After the fall of Constantinople much of it came under the control of the Turks which set the ground for the fighting in Bosnia Hercegovinia. It's also where the Slavic world meets the west, many Serbs indenitfy more closely with Russians than they do with the Europe. It's one of the reasons Milosevic felt he had so much power, his big brother to the east was always there to back him up. Hell, it's one of the reasons WW I started, the Serb Black Hand society was trying to gain independence from Austro-Hungary and was bumping off people who stood in the way. When they assassinated the Austrian heir to the throne it was the final straw, the Austrians declared war on Serbia, the Russians delcared war on the Austrians to protect the Serbs, the Germans delcared war on the Russians to back their allies and on and on. I could go on but what the point, you've got it all figured out, why bother with annoying things like facts.

Ya all those annoying facts that half the counrty got in highschool history class.

You da bomb.

And again, what you know about the last conflict in the Balkans (which was the spirit of the conversation) wouldn't sink a thimble in a pool of propane.

Again, it's enough to know when I'm being screwed and that's exactly what the Harper government is doing to Canadians in general by not being honest about...well almost everything. We're experiencing government by stealth and it has no place in a western democracy. Especially when the lives of our troops are at stake in a dirty war that has no end in site.

I'm guessing it's to much of a stretch to ask you if you remember Cretien's Gov't.
And no you're not a Nazi.

My grandfather was a Canadian vet from both WWs and I used to have a very high regard for our men and women who are and have served. The way they're allowing themselves to be used now by a Conservative government that has no respect for the people of this or any other country for that matter saddens and shames me.

I've seen you say lots of things that you should feel shame for. This silly statement being one such example.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Perhaps you missed the part about the fact that it would be Canadians doing the checking in...don't worry, I know how difficult it is to see through the ideology blinders.

We have a hard enough time keeping things in check in our corrections system here in Canada, what are the chances we'll ever be able to effectively monitor the Afghani system that's based on corruption and intimidation through violence. You're the one who needs to take his blinders off and look at just what kind of people we're backing in Afghanistan. The same warlords who backed the Taliban are getting rich while our troops die. Hell some Taliban leaders simply changed sides so there is no real difference, it's all just smoke and mirrors so some politicians can claim we're making a difference.

Ya that's it.

btw, I probly know more about South America then I know about the Balkans, hence my several threads on US interferance and corruption there.

Great so you know about the School of Assassins and how much of the violence in Central and South America was paid for with US tax dollars. Even prominent figures like Archbishop Romero weren't safe from men trained in torture and assassination at US facilities. Kind of puts this "War on Terrorism" in a different light doesn't it.

Ya all those annoying facts that half the counrty got in highschool history class.

You da bomb.

And again, what you know about the last conflict in the Balkans (which was the spirit of the conversation) wouldn't sink a thimble in a pool of propane.

I know more than I want to, some of the stories my Bosnian friend told me about being gang raped by ****ing Serbs as a girl make me physically ill. It truly pisses me off that we're supporting the same kind of assholes in Afghanistan just so Harper and his buddies can look good.

I'm guessing it's to much of a stretch to ask you if you remember Cretien's Gov't.
And no you're not a Nazi.

Sure I remember Cretien, his arrogance was a constant source of annoyance to me, but he was nothing compared to Harper, who's done everything he can to shut down access to information on what our government is truly up to and concentrating power in the PMO in ways King Jean never did.

I've seen you say lots of things that you should feel shame for. This silly statement being one such example.

Call me human, I do care about others and have no time for soul dead politicians who only want more power and wealth no matter the body count at the end of the day, both ours and there's. You tell me where's there's any sanity in waging a counter-insurgency in one of the worst places in the world to do so in support of a government that has no real credibility both at home and abroad. Like the Yanks in Vietnam, we could win every tactical battle and still come up empty at the end of the day. In the end it doesn't matter at all what we're doing in Afghanistan as long as Pakistan is in chaos and the Taliban have a safe home. Enough with the rhetoric, enough Canadian lives have been lost so that Harper and Co. can wrap themselves in the flag and trumpet what super-patriots they are. They can make their trips to Kandahar and claim how much they care about our brave men and women. In the end they're asking them to do the impossible all so they can get a few more votes back home. They don't give a damn what happens to the men and women after they've been used up, just like the DoD doesn't.

 

[CDNBear]

We have a hard enough time keeping things in check in our corrections system here in Canada, what are the chances we'll ever be able to effectively monitor the Afghani system that's based on corruption and intimidation through violence. You're the one who needs to take his blinders off and look at just what kind of people we're backing in Afghanistan. The same warlords who backed the Taliban are getting rich while our troops die. Hell some Taliban leaders simply changed sides so there is no real difference, it's all just smoke and mirrors so some politicians can claim we're making a difference.

Nope, no blinders there.

Great so you know about the School of Assassins and how much of the violence in Central and South America was paid for with US tax dollars. Even prominent figures like Archbishop Romero weren't safe from men trained in torture and assassination at US facilities. Kind of puts this "War on Terrorism" in a different light doesn't it.

Great so I know about the complicity of the Church, the coup's that never were, the death squads, the over throws.

Ya I think I got a lock on it skippy.

I know more than I want to, some of the stories my Bosnian friend told me about being gang raped by ****ing Serbs as a girl make me physically ill. It truly pisses me off that we're supporting the same kind of assholes in Afghanistan just so Harper and his buddies can look good.

Well there ya have it!

Your BOSNIAN friend filled you right in.

No other side to the story at all.

Good call.

Sure I remember Cretien, his arrogance was a constant source of annoyance to me, but he was nothing compared to Harper, who's done everything he can to shut down access to information on what our government is truly up to and concentrating power in the PMO in ways King Jean never did.

Whatever, blinders skippy, blinders.

Call me human, I do care about others and have no time for soul dead politicians who only want more power and wealth no matter the body count at the end of the day, both ours and there's. You tell me where's there's any sanity in waging a counter-insurgency in one of the worst places in the world to do so in support of a government that has no real credibility both at home and abroad. Like the Yanks in Vietnam, we could win every tactical battle and still come up empty at the end of the day. In the end it doesn't matter at all what we're doing in Afghanistan as long as Pakistan is in chaos and the Taliban have a safe home. Enough with the rhetoric, enough Canadian lives have been lost so that Harper and Co. can wrap themselves in the flag and trumpet what super-patriots they are. They can make their trips to Kandahar and claim how much they care about our brave men and women. In the end they're asking them to do the impossible all so they can get a few more votes back home. They don't give a damn what happens to the men and women after they've been used up, just like the DoD doesn't.

Nope, no blinders there either.

I see you have a lock on truth, thanx for participating, I won't waste anymore of your time.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Nope, no blinders there.

Great so I know about the complicity of the Church, the coup's that never were, the death squads, the over throws.

Ya I think I got a lock on it skippy.

Names not skippy, do you really understand? How about the 30,000 or so people that were disappeared in Argentina. Abducted and tortured by the military (mostly naval officers) then drugged, zipped into sleeping bags loaded into Herks then dropped into the Atlantic outside the territorial boundary. How about that nasty chainsaw massacre in southern Mexico where over 100 died. All this and so much more including the death squads was the responsibility of graduates of a US school for Paramilitaries. Funded by a nation that's now going to erradicate terrorism in the world? Maybe they should shut the school down for starters.

Well there ya have it!

Your BOSNIAN friend filled you right in.

No other side to the story at all.

Good call.

Whatever, blinders skippy, blinders.

I didn't need to be there to know how brutal a war it was, the Muslims got their asses kicked because we wouldn't let them have heavy arms while the Serbs could get whatever they needed from the old Yugoslavian army stocks or from the Russians. Sounds fair to me.

The UN set up safe zones for the Bosnians then bugged out whenever things got too hot. How many were massacred at Screbrenica again, 7,000? People with AKs and molotov cocktails going up against Soviet era MBTs and Hinds with heavy artillery backup, sounds pretty onesided to me. How about Serb deathcamps too, anything else you want to inform me on, you seem to think you know so much.

Nope, no blinders there either.

I see you have a lock on truth, thanx for participating, I won't waste anymore of your time.

It's called a viewpoint, I don't care if you agree with me or not. And I'm sure as hell aren't going to be TOLD how to think by you or a government that doesn't give a damn about my rights or opinions anyway.

Until the next election, that is one nice thing about living in a democracy.:smile: