Socialism Is the Only Way

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Hospitals are expensive because no one has the incentive to make the dangerous corner cutting decisions that cost lives.

There is laziness that cuts corners still, but you better bet private sectors have their own lazy "retire on the job" types too. They just have a "net zero" effect because they also cut corners to save cost on top of that.

Hey Zzarchov, let me have a look at your chart. You might be surprised about how many private sector flunkys really do kill to save the corp bucks and pick up the quarterly bonuses. Hospitals in the states are top of the list in expense,the most expensive in the OECD countrys, national health care in the states is at the bottom of the OECD countries for care of the citizen. The USA also has a very high infant mortality rate. It's also the most expensive and least efficient in that same OECD scores. And all those benchmarks are reached by the private sector who haven't found anything that they can't phuck-up completely in over thirty years. Including prisons.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Right and the West including Canada and the U.S. have found that happy balance between extremes of the free market and a nanny state. You have countries that have more or less captalism like the U.S. which has more and they suffer with issues like health care insurance while you have countries like France who have less but with very high unemployment. Canada has a happy medium with low unemployment, state health care and a vibrant economy one that will weather the coming U.S. reccession although if I had my way I would involve the private sector to get invloved with the delivery of health care in this country like they do in Europe because lets face it, it works very well for them but socialists in Canada hate the private sector even though most Canadians are employed by them.

Your arguments are moot because while saying socialism is the only way you have now just given capitalism a pat on the back.....glad to see you have come to your senses....lol.

Haha, I never said there was anything wrong with capitalism. Sure, the extreme end of capitalism is terrible, and so is the extreme end of socialism. But that is just my argument, the true ideal lies in between the two extremes, and we get nowhere by demonizing one philosophy.

I don't know about the unemployment rate in France, but I do know that countries define it in different ways, for instance Germany's unemployment basically doubled overnight when they passed Hartz 4, and that was just due to a new way of counting the "unemployed". Walking around France, you don't get the impression that it is so different from NA.

The whole "Socialism is the only way" is pretty bad. I think when you lose sight of productivity you are going to have some major problems, so I more or less am a capitalist. But I don't think that any amount of money should ever have more power than a person's voice, so I am more or less a socialist. What I am labeled generally depends on who I am talking to. As I said, demonizing a philosophy is bad.

Keep in mind I also think that "trade liberalization" has more to do with economic protectionism than capitalism, and I am opposed to it for this reason as much as for socialist reasons.
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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I want a concrete permanent wall erected between what is public and what is private,


I'd put some doorways in the wall like they have done in Europe, the ones with superior health care.

You don't care about good health care you only care about the ideology of how we deliver it even though it is flawed.
 

Avro

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Haha, I never said there was anything wrong with capitalism. Sure, the extreme end of capitalism is terrible, and so is the extreme end of socialism. But that is just my argument, the true ideal lies in between the two extremes, and we get nowhere by demonizing one philosophy.

I don't know about the unemployment rate in France, but I do know that countries define it in different ways, for instance Germany's unemployment basically doubled overnight when they passed Hartz 4, and that was just due to a new way of counting the "unemployed". Walking around France, you don't get the impression that it is so different from NA.

The whole "Socialism is the only way" is pretty bad. I think when you lose sight of productivity you are going to have some major problems, so I more or less am a capitalist. But I don't think that any amount of money should ever have more power than a person's voice, so I am more or less a socialist. What I am labeled generally depends on who I am talking to. As I said, demonizing a philosophy is bad.

Keep in mind I also think that "trade liberalization" has more to do with economic protectionism than capitalism, and I am opposed to it for this reason as much as for socialist reasons.

Interesting how you can judge unemployment by just walking around.

You have said many things that I can agree with however, seems balanced and thats what I like.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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I'd put some doorways in the wall like they have done in Europe, the ones with superior health care.

You don't care about good health care you only care about the ideology of how we deliver it even though it is flawed.

I have no problem with employing the private sector to deliver health care. I have a problem with allowing the private sector to dictate the cost of those services and I have a problem with adopting an American model. Keep in mind Avro that part of the SSP and NAU agreements is to bring Mexican and Canadian regulatory bodies and legal bodies in line with the American model and not the other way arround. NAFTA was a bloody disaster for both Mexico and Canada and free trade before it, that's when we lost hundreds of thousands of very good manufacturing jobs, service sector jobs are not comparable in quality and the increased numbers of them just spread the wages saved on those disappeared manufacturing jobs to more people who earned less money per head for a net gain to the owners and a net loss to the workers.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Care to supply some proof of all the jobs we lost DB...

Cause there are tons of stats on the sectors that grew quite well after the Free Trade agreement. With better pay even.

Or is just saying we lost lost lost your arguement?
 

smdfaru

New Member
Avro
Your bashing of socialism is feable compared to that of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Mussolini. They obiliterated all key socialists from public record. Hitler supplanted socialist organizations. founded and supported by workers, with the Natinal Socialist Party. In all four cases, Leading socialists were relegated to the status of "nonperson."

Here, in the US, a leading socialist, Daniel DeLeon, is relegated to the status of a "nonperson." Whether anyone agrees with his proposition or not is beside the point. Why the "nonperson" status.

Unlike the four aforementioned socialist bashers who resorted to the use of force and violence, the US capitalist class used chicanery. With control of the education system, and media, it proved effective. Their approach is that workers are too stupid and need to be guided, with the application of chicanery, of course. An oxymoran, too stupid but yet need to be tricked.

Bashers of socialism does have strange bed fellows. When you pass on to the happy hunting grounds, I am sure the dirty four will provide a spare bed for you.

Don
 

Avro

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Hey Don, outright socialism is a failure and has never been successful and leads to undemocratic states that oppress it's citizens.

Even right wing nuts like Pinochet handed over his country to democracy once it it had been rescued from the socialists.

If you want that move to Cuba but I want none of that in Canada.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Its a great motto the socialists have.

Anyone who is a socialist and shows a socialist state turning out bad is declared a "false socialist" rather than admitting the system has flaws.

Did you ever think that what people say when they mean Socialism is a horrible system is that it CAUSES that kind of dictatorship? How great it looks on paper is irrelevant, how well it could function if done right is irrelevant, all that matter is it CAN'T be done right.

A dictatorship on a theoretical basis is a million times better than socialism. One person efficiently does whats right and whats best for everyone with no thought to his own gain.

The problem is, in reality, that is never how a dictatorship turns out. Likewise, regardless of how socialism SHOULD be , it will never turn out that way, the system is fundementally flawed in that respect.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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ovember 17, 2003 | EPI Briefing Paper #147 The high price of 'free' trade
NAFTA's failure has cost the United States jobs across the nation
by Robert E. Scott
Since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was signed in 1993, the rise in the U.S. trade deficit with Canada and Mexico through 2002 has caused the displacement of production that supported 879,280 U.S. jobs. Most of those lost jobs were high-wage positions in manufacturing industries. The loss of these jobs is just the most visible tip of NAFTA's impact on the U.S. economy. In fact, NAFTA has also contributed to rising income inequality, suppressed real wages for production workers, weakened workers' collective bargaining powers and ability to organize unions, and reduced fringe benefits.
NAFTA is a free trade and investment agreement that provided investors with a unique set of guarantees designed to stimulate foreign direct investment and the movement of factories within the hemisphere, especially from the United States to Canada and Mexico. Furthermore, no protections were contained in the core of the agreement to maintain labor or environmental standards. As a result, NAFTA tilted the economic playing field in favor of investors, and against workers and the environment, resulting in a hemispheric "race to the bottom" in wages and environmental quality.
“The Harper government must prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that any trade arrangement between Canada and Korea shall incorporate measures that guarantee the protection of the jobs and quality of life of Canadian working families. At stake are the 140,000 high quality Canadian jobs in the automotive industry, as well as jobs in our shipyard industries. Parliament must be allowed to scrutinize the government impact studies, and any trade deal inspired by the failed NAFTA model should not be on the table,” said Julian.
According to a study released by the Canadian Auto Workers union, which bases estimates on the average of real-world experience of five existing bilateral free trade deals involving Canada as a partner, a free trade agreement with Korea would grant greater access to our market to Korean producers and widen our substantial bilateral auto deficit. Over 33,000 net jobs lost in Canada are projected. Auto imports from Korea have grown almost 600% while, in contrast, Korea’s automotive purchases from Canada have declined by 90 percent since 2000.
Employment in the Canadian automotive industry has been steadily declining since 2000. Almost 6600 Canadian workers have lost their jobs since 2005. “The facts show that for every dollar received from Canadian exports to Korea, we import $186 worth of Korean-made automotive products. The NDP believes in stronger bilateral relationships but certain protections must be negotiated, and the Conservative and Liberal governments have proven that they cannot be trusted to do that,” says Julian.http://www.ndp.ca/page/5925

Free Trade’s Big Lie: NAFTA has failed to create quality jobs or close the income gap

by Jean-Yves LeFort
If you read any Canadian newspaper, you’ve been treated to the same refrain: NAFTA has been good for Canada. It has led to economic growth and jobs for Canadians. And given that it’s been so wonderful for Canada, the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) could only make things better, right?
What proponents of deep integration are not telling you is this: the notion that NAFTA has been good for average Canadians, Americans and Mexicans is a lie. The truth is that NAFTA has been responsible for growing poverty, the creation of a new underclass called the “working poor,” and the concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people.
The numbers don’t lie
When political and business leaders sold Canadians on the merits of NAFTA, they promised that trade would boom, our economy would grow, more jobs would be created and our standard of living would skyrocket. In Mexico, politicians promised that free trade would lift people out of poverty. Look closely at the numbers, however, and all these promises begin to ring hollow.
A September 2006 study by the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) found that Canadian exports to the U.S. peaked in 2000 and started falling in 2001 and 2002. They have since risen again, but only because of a commodities boom particularly related to the minerals, forestry and energy industries.
In other words, if it weren’t for natural resources, especially oil, our exports to the U.S. would be falling steadily. Furthermore, a federal Industry Department study quoted by EPI reveals that 90 per cent of the export surge in the 1990s was a result of the low Canadian dollar.
In addition, Canada’s share of the American import market has stayed the same throughout the NAFTA years. So those who claimed that NAFTA would give us a “privileged” and growing access to the American market have been proven wrong. Canada is rapidly losing ground to India and China, two countries that have not signed trade deals with the U.S.
Exports don’t equal jobs
NAFTA’s proponents point out that Mexico has become the world’s eighth largest exporter. This, they say, is proof that free trade has been good for the Mexican people. But researchers at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University recently concluded that foreign investment was “largely disconnected from the domestic Mexican economy.”
In other words, large corporations are exploiting a cheap labour force for quick profit. The products of this labour immediately leave the country as exports. This accounts for the high trade numbers but it is not an accurate reflection of Mexico’s economic strength. The country as a whole does not benefit from technology transfers or new infrastructure.
A 2004 article in The Economist stated that NAFTA “champions” had oversold their case and that it was “never plausible” that NAFTA would be a net creator of jobs. The magazine went on to explain that free trade affects the pattern of jobs, not the total number of jobs created.
Disappearing middle class
In Canada, the middle class has taken the biggest hit. Wage growth has been almost flat since 1989 – it grew at a paltry rate of 0.63 per cent per year. NAFTA defenders point to the creation of “millions” of new jobs since the agreement was implemented, but a 2004 study by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA) questions the quality and stability of those jobs. According to the CCPA, 560,000 jobs were created in 2002, but 40 per cent were part-time and 17 per cent represented self-employed persons.
The CCPA’s study reinforces an argument that the labour movement has been making for years: free trade eliminates unionized, steady, well-paid jobs and replaces them with temporary, non-unionized and largely part-time “McJobs.” And this has come at a time when Canada’s social programs have been devastated by cuts – especially since the mid-1990s. In 1989, the CCPA points out, 87 per cent of unemployed people in Canada qualified for unemployment insurance benefits, whereas by 2001 only 39 per cent qualified for coverage.
Canadians aren’t the only ones suffering. Despite a flood of investment in the manufacturing sector along the Mexican border with the U.S., the real value of the minimum wage has dropped in Mexico by 18 per cent. A 2003 study by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace points out that while the manufacturing sector in Mexico created 500,000 jobs between 1994 and 2000, the agricultural sector, where one-fifth of Mexicans still work, has lost 1.3 million jobs since 1994.
To add insult to injury, many of the manufacturing jobs are leaving Mexico for China, where wages are even lower. The most revealing indication of this trend is the skyrocketing numbers of Mexican immigrants to the United States. According to Mexico’s National Institute of Statistics, the flow of undocumented workers to the United States has ballooned from an estimated 200,000 a year in 1994 to more than 300,000 a year in 2004.
The irony is that the U.S. middle class has also been devastated by job losses in recent years. Between 2001 and 2003, 2.9 million manufacturing jobs were lost in the U.S. According to Forbes Magazine, the United States’ largest employer is now Wal-Mart, which pays its employees an average wage of $7.50 per hour.
The growing gap
Here is the crux of the matter: If NAFTA has created so much wealth, why is poverty growing in all three countries?
Study after study reveals that the gap between rich and poor is growing both between countries and within countries. In the book Living with Uncle: Canada-US Relations in an Age of Empire, Bruce Campbell argues that after decades of declining inequality, the bottom 20 per cent of Canadian families saw their incomes fall by 7.6 per cent in the NAFTA era, while the top 20 per cent saw their incomes rise by 16.8 per cent.
A 2004 Report Card on Child and Family Poverty in Canada produced by Campaign 2000 reveals that nearly a third of Canadian children have lived in poverty for at least a year since 1996. According to the report, the richest 10 per cent of Canadian families have an average income 11 times as high as the poorest 10 per cent. The authors blame low-paying and insecure jobs for widening the disparity between rich and poor families. In other words, a “strong economy” has done nothing to close the gap.
The idea that free trade would make Mexico rich was the biggest fallacy of all. Under NAFTA, the number of Mexicans living in poverty has actually increased. According to a May 2001 World Bank study, Mexicans living in poverty represent 58.4 per cent of the population. That’s almost 8 per cent higher than in 1994.
The much-celebrated “NAFTA labour side agreement” – an after-the-fact peace offering that was supposed to appease the U.S. labour movement – has proven too weak to enforce labour rights in Mexico. The mechanisms it created to defend workers have no enforcement powers so there has been little impact on the lives of the people the agreement was meant to defend. The Wall Street Journal put it eloquently in 1997, reporting that under the agreement “not a single worker was ever reinstated, not a single employer was ever sanctioned, and no union was ever recognized.”
The evidence makes it clear that under free trade, the losers are the Canadians, Mexicans and Americans who are struggling to contend with low wages and insecure working conditions – if they are lucky enough to find a job. NAFTA has made corporate investors very rich, so it’s no surprise that they are the ones pushing for deeper integration with the U.S. and Mexico through the Security and Prosperity Partnership. They are the only clear winners under the NAFTA model, so they want to make free trade irreversible and broaden its scope.
In 1994, Canadians took a leap of faith based on false promises. In 2007, we know better.
Jean-Yves LeFort is The Council of Canadians’ Trade Campaigner.
INTEGRATE THIS! Challenging the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North
http://www.canadians.org/publications/CP/2007/spring/trade.html
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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I hate Op/Ed peices foisted as supporting documention...Try something like this.

Stats...

In 1994, Canada, the United States and Mexico launched the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and formed the world's largest free trade area. Our decision to open doors and break down barriers is producing a thriving relationship among our three countries - one that has led to strong economic growth in the region and that has helped to fuel global economic growth in recent years. Between 1994 and 1999, Canada's economy grew by an average of 3.3 percent, while the U.S. and Mexican economies grew by an average of 3.9 percent and 3.1 percent, respectively.
link

As we lost some industry, the bulk of which was lower paying manual labour intensive, we gained an increase in skilled trade manufacturing jobs, coming with an increased mean wage.

A simple fact.
 

smdfaru

New Member
Avro

Just keep it up and I am sure that Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Hitler will keep a warm spot waiting for you. Most likely Castro will beat you to the happy hunting grounds and join in with the other four preparing for you arrival. Between the 5 of of them they haven't got enough powder to blow themselves out of their anti-Marxiam bed fellow stance and it appears that you don't have a nit to help them out.

Don
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Avro

Just keep it up and I am sure that Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Hitler will keep a warm spot waiting for you. Most likely Castro will beat you to the happy hunting grounds and join in with the other four preparing for you arrival. Between the 5 of of them they haven't got enough powder to blow themselves out of their anti-Marxiam bed fellow stance and it appears that you don't have a nit to help them out.

Don
And all that is supposed to win hearts and minds how?
 

smdfaru

New Member
CDNBear

What does "that" refer to?

If it refers to my response to the most recent subterfuge, than the only reason you would ask "how" is that you don't recognize it as such. In that case, you probably have an affinity towards it.

If "that" refers to something else, then my reply is mute, but I still request an explanation as to what "that" referes to.

Don
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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CDNBear

What does "that" refer to?

If it refers to my response to the most recent subterfuge, than the only reason you would ask "how" is that you don't recognize it as such. In that case, you probably have an affinity towards it.

If "that" refers to something else, then my reply is mute, but I still request an explanation as to what "that" referes to.

Don
Ummm, you call this 'subterfuge'?

Hey Don, outright socialism is a failure and has never been successful and leads to undemocratic states that oppress it's citizens.

Even right wing nuts like Pinochet handed over his country to democracy once it it had been rescued from the socialists.

If you want that move to Cuba but I want none of that in Canada.
That looks far more like varifiable historic fact.

But if that is 'subterfuge to you, then what exactly would you call this?

Avro

Just keep it up and I am sure that Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Hitler will keep a warm spot waiting for you. Most likely Castro will beat you to the happy hunting grounds and join in with the other four preparing for you arrival. Between the 5 of of them they haven't got enough powder to blow themselves out of their anti-Marxiam bed fellow stance and it appears that you don't have a nit to help them out.

Don
 

Avro

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Avro

Just keep it up and I am sure that Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Hitler will keep a warm spot waiting for you. Most likely Castro will beat you to the happy hunting grounds and join in with the other four preparing for you arrival. Between the 5 of of them they haven't got enough powder to blow themselves out of their anti-Marxiam bed fellow stance and it appears that you don't have a nit to help them out.

Don

Here's a challenge, try making sense next time.
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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I hate Op/Ed peices foisted as supporting documention...Try something like this.

Stats...

link

As we lost some industry, the bulk of which was lower paying manual labour intensive, we gained an increase in skilled trade manufacturing jobs, coming with an increased mean wage.

A simple fact.

Not only that but high paying jobs in the service sector and one the tories under Mulroney saw coming and is one of the reasons for the GST.
 

smdfaru

New Member
CDNBear

Not very direct in you answer but enough to point to the direction. What are you and Avro, Siamese twins?

When it comes to a list of fascists and despots, you can add Pinochet along with Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Mussolini. That should add to rounding out the nefarious gang list and elucidating what I mean by subterfuge. Throw in amy more of such scum balls and I will add them to the nefarious list which would serve to accentuate my point. Franco, maybe, or do you have a better scum ball in the ready.

Perhaps you also are looking for cozy spot to lie down with the brutes in your afterlife..

Don
 

smdfaru

New Member
Avro

You said:

"Here's a challenge, try making sense next time."

How clear do you want it. I said you had "strange bed fellows." Do you want me to paint a picture for you to show that you have something in common them-- bashing socialism.

Don