Search for reality .

[china]

From China ,
Hi above fellow forum participants I am very busy this past few days and even though I had a chance to read some of the posts I truly never had enough time to send a reply to them .I will begin doing so ( not all posts at once)soon when I'll get more personal time .

 

[sanctus]

Is God to be found by seeking him out? Can you search after the unknowable? To find, you must know what you are seeking.

Not necessarily. To seek, you must have a desire. You may not know the exact "thing" you are seeking, but your desire to know would propel you to find answers.

 

[darkbeaver]

Quoteing China;
Is God to be found by seeking him out? Can you search after the unknowable?


God being the sun (look way up) is inescapeably knowable right down to the atomic level of every particle on this earth. There is no confusion about god that has not been manufactured repeatidly, for the same reason over the centuries. The confusion associated with the word knowledge is a more important question, one that allows discussion. God the sun allows none with respect to what constitutes god for this planet. But, in reality there are many gods in our universe, it,s a democracy of Gods. hahaha:lol:

 

[TomG]

“…We know truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart, and it is in this last way that we know first principles; and reason, which has no part in it, tries in vain to impugn them…”

“,,,The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.”

Blaise Pascal

Pascal wrote that proof of the existence of God is probably unattainable, but also is unnecessary. He also wrote that meaning cannot be separated from feeling. Pascal was a mathematician.

Descartes who wrote before Pascal held that proof of the existence of God was possible and also that making a proof was a duty. For that duty, Descartes abstracted himself to an entity that possessed a single characteristic that could not deny its own existence or that of God. Cogito Ergo Sum, proudly displayed as wisdom on tee shirts. The ultimate cliché so utterly true it is entirely devoid of meaning.

Descartes, to do his duty, abstracted himself to the limit of nothingness, emptying his soul and possible killing it in the process. He became part of the great commonality that we require in our modern mechanical truths of external existence--our modern western science. What use would any god have for such a thing?

The great commonality of objective western truth is the place where we put all the great arts of the world in museums to be owned by us all, and incidentally become unavailable to possess any of us. Ourselves, reduced to the great commonality, like a bottle of the rarest perfume left opened by the sea to evaporate so to belong to us all (Rilke). If we allow it, ‘we empty ourselves and join in the modern crisis of meaning and experience the agonizing emptiness that is the root of all modern evil’ (Laurens van der Post).

We have allowed our quest for western truth to throw away the Pascal and keep the Descartes. We forgot that ‘the heart always exceeds the mind’ and the writings of Robert Boyle who refused to construct abstract theories, lest they determine his findings. Such is the desert of our modern truth. No wonder we elect the leaders we do and fight the wars we do. We’ve forgotten that truth comes from within as well from without, and it belongs to each of us in our own way.

I do not choose to fill my soul with Christian principles, but I do choose to fill it as well as I can. I usually recognize and respect those who walk with their own truths, and therefore possess the greatest beauty and wonder of art possible—our own souls. I do not wish the emptiness of the great commonality since it would reduce me to’ clutching at life like a befuddled amateur, alternating between frozen terror and abject flight’ (Rilke), and play at the poseur who dispenses content free pub wisdom from a brass rail.

 

[china]

TomG ,
What a wonderfull post.How true that our hearts are filled with the contents of our mind.

 

[china]

Sanctus

Not necessarily. To seek, you must have a desire. You may not know the exact "thing" you are seeking, but your desire to know would propel you to find answers.

Known can only know known Sanctus.The "desire "is also a "known"( ( you know when and whaty you desire).It will propel you in the direction and a result in what you already know .Even if you think that you have found the Creator( the Unknown),Sanctus it would mean that you have recognized Him ,and if you have rcognized Him (in order to find anything , you have to recognize it ) it means that you knew Him all along .So the question is .........why did you search for Him in a first place ????HaHa

 

[sanctus]

Sanctus



Known can only know known Sanctus.The "desire "is also a "known"( ( you know when and whaty you desire).It will propel you in the direction and a result in what you already know .Even if you think that you have found the Creator( the Unknown),Sanctus it would mean that you have recognized Him ,and if you have rcognized Him (in order to find anything , you have to recognize it ) it means that you knew Him all along .So the question is .........why did you search for Him in a first place ????HaHa

You are being redundant and vague. We are always seeking him, even if we are not aware of it necessarily. Our lives are a seeking of answers, of solutions, of "why". We begin our journey seeking God. some of us find Him, others make up versions of Him.

 

[s_lone]

Our lives are a seeking of answers, of solutions, of "why". We begin our journey seeking God. some of us find Him, others make up versions of Him.

With a truth seeking attitude, how can I know that the God of the Catholic Church is THE right conception of God. How is the Catholic view of God any more truthful than any other religious view of God? What weight does your faith have against someone else's faith?

 

[jimshort19]

China, "To find, you must know what you are seeking."

Wildly false. Half of discovery is by accident.

China, "If you seek to find, what you find will be a self-projection; it will be what you desire, and the creation of desire is not truth."

False again. Science is not a self-projection. As for 'the creation of desire' being not truth, good point - neither are the pickled herrings. Glad you didn't name everything in the universe as truth or not truth because you are full of hot air as it is.

China, " To seek truth is to deny it."

So to deny truth is to seek it. Therefore let us all deny the truth, a moral error by definition, so that we may seek it, a moral good, though it is just the creation of desire, not truth, blah blah blah...

China, "Truth has no fixed abode; there is no path, no guide to it, and the word is not truth."

Is there any truth in you? You deny that there can be. So why do you speak? Why do you eat? Another poster has already demonstrated that your actions belie your words.

China, " Is truth to be found in a particular setting, in a special climate, among certain people? Is it here and not there? Is that one the guide to truth, and not another? Is there a guide at all?"

You never answer your questions, but invaribly profess that they are pointless with your next breath. What person asks pointless questions? A pointless person.

China, "When truth is sought, what is found can only come out of ignorance, for the search itself is born of ignorance."

This passes for logic? I think not. And what does it mean? Is the truth really devalued by your sophistry, is it really ignorant?

China, "You cannot search out reality; you must cease for reality to be."

This is nihilism. This is the advocacy of suicide. What is your interest, your profit, in my suicide?

Ask one question at a time, whether you know the answer or not, and someone on this forum will help you or be helped from ignorance to truth by the good will that is abundant among us.

A child knows more in the womb than you, because you have intentionally deconstructed your purpose, rather than do the work of making yourself meaningful. You have only progressed from innocence to put a foot into the grave before your natural time, and you profess it all as though it has value. You profess your own futility, yet draw breath. Why? Are you afraid to die? Do you have no work, no sun, no child?

 

[jjaycee98]

Not necessarily. To seek, you must have a desire. You may not know the exact "thing" you are seeking, but your desire to know would propel you to find answers.

As many peoples and tribes and nationalities have had a "god" that they beleive in and have destroyed other civilizations to elevate their belief and their "god" and as it still goes on in the name of Christianity or Muslim belief today, I think we have irrevokable proof that "GOD" does not exist.

If there was indeed an all powerful "GOD" he should have been able to bring peace to his peoples and a created a manifest of the truth for all to see.

As I see it: religion is just another way of controlling the masses, a way of brokering power to certain individuals and a way of absolving guilt for being a thief, murderer or lier.

 

[jimshort19]

Jjaycee, "I think we have irrevokable proof that "GOD" does not exist. If there was indeed an all powerful "GOD" he should have been able to bring peace to his peoples and a created a manifest of the truth for all to see.

Your god does not exist. Hey, cheap god. But you tell us what your god would do. Your god would be a dictator who would spoon feed his robots.

 

[TomG]

China:

I don’t often respond directly to posts. I tend to use the board as a kind of notebook.

I probably won’t engage your subject since I played on these grounds long ago, and perhaps I’ve become more set in my ways than I might care to think.

I write to thank you for your post. It caused me to pause and then write what I did; and I enjoyed what I wrote. I perhaps would have connected the dots the other way, and considered that my mind may be filled with the contents of my heart. That is because I instinctively feel that the heart is the senior partner in what animates our realities—the universe. Irrespective, it’s perhaps better to try and tear down the learned barriers within ourselves rather than accepting them as natural ways of life.

Anyway, connecting the dots of our lives is entirely the responsibility of each individual. Anybody’s interpretation is equally as valid as mine. To insist that my interpretation of something is better than any other person’s, I’d have to know their life as I do my own, which is likely to be impossible.

For what you may make of it, you might read David Wagoner’s Poem Lost. The entire text can be found many places on-line. The poem is based on a story native elders tell children. It is literally a survival guide if a child discovers they are lost in a forest. I live in the bush, and I recognize the practicality of the advice, although many people also take the poem more figuratively than literally.

I pass along Wagoner’s poem because I take the sorts of subjects you initiate and ponder as signs of strengths in yourself. There may be dots in the poem for you to connect in what ever ways are useful to your life. However, I seem to be coming close to making a kind of judgment, which borders on the sorts of arrogance and conceits that I hope to avoid in myself.

 

[darkbeaver]

Let there be light----------Click------------let there be no light---------click----------let there be light--------Click----------let there be no light---------Click----------ect;

 

[MikeyDB]

Reality's for losers...

Attend the church of your preference soon......... just about as far from reality as you can get.

 

[s_lone]

Is China the 'God' of this thread?

 

[talloola]

oh my god

 

[Pangloss]

China:

I notice that you are not replying to any of the more substantive exegesis of your original post. Would you deign to put the effort in for us? We put the effort in for you.

Pangloss

 

[TomG]

Mikey, Dark:

I truly recant every generous thought I have ever had toward both of you. I thought you knew better, but you shame your selves. I own and am the cause of my own disappointment.

Those who live by seeking to magnify their own existence by setting themselves above others never meet anybody but themselves or that they interpret as enemy. Such lives are static, and their comments about others really are reflections on their own lives. There is an expression in China that goes something like ‘A person who has finished building their house dies.’ A house is where you live, and many here seem to have already met Cheron and read the gate: ‘Abandon all hope ye who enter by me.’

A story in China goes something like: A master admonished students: ‘Why do you come asking for the secret of happiness? Of course, you’re unhappy. You spend 99% of your time thinking about yourself, and there isn’t one.’

Just try to take responsibility for your own lives and try not to blame others for any miseries felt. Grappling with the responsibility any credible person bears for their own life isn’t thinking about one’s self. It’s a responsibility that lasts a lifetime.

China: I extend the dignity to you of neither seeking to defend nor advise you. You likely are perfectly capable of that on your own, and besides, I would then be guilty of another version of what I condemned above.

 

[darkbeaver]

Mikey, Dark:

I truly recant every generous thought I have ever had toward both of you. I thought you knew better, but you shame your selves. I own and am the cause of my own disappointment.

Those who live by seeking to magnify their own existence by setting themselves above others never meet anybody but themselves or that they interpret as enemy. Such lives are static, and their comments about others really are reflections on their own lives. There is an expression in China that goes something like ‘A person who has finished building their house dies.’ A house is where you live, and many here seem to have already met Cheron and read the gate: ‘Abandon all hope ye who enter by me.’

A story in China goes something like: A master admonished students: ‘Why do you come asking for the secret of happiness? Of course, you’re unhappy. You spend 99% of your time thinking about yourself, and there isn’t one.’

Just try to take responsibility for your own lives and try not to blame others for any miseries felt. Grappling with the responsibility any credible person bears for their own life isn’t thinking about one’s self. It’s a responsibility that lasts a lifetime.

China: I extend the dignity to you of neither seeking to defend nor advise you. You likely are perfectly capable of that on your own, and besides, I would then be guilty of another version of what I condemned above.

Recant all you will Tom, but to what end? Is what you previously felt now invalid? A life lived and persued in isolation is selfish indeed. Personal responsibility is sterile if it does not extend to thy fellow man. No progress is possible without that personal responsibilty being extended to the community. Individualism is in fact death and offers only lonelyness and defeat. Our pursuit of it in these times may be the end of human experiance. The title of this thread is "serch for reality". Reality cannot be found in any strictly personal exploration, we are of the whole for all eternity, one, indivisable. You have taken offence where none was offered. China is well used to my teaseings, I have respect for his ideas and his efforts and have said as much many times in his threads. respectfully DB------click

 

[china]

China:

I notice that you are not replying to any of the more substantive exegesis of your original post. Would you deign to put the effort in for us? We put the effort in for you.

Pangloss

I live in China Pangloss ;that/s aprox. 12 hoursahead o f your time zone .
I travell , work aprox. 16 -20 hrs a day Pangloss.
I don't have a GPRS on my lap top , there are some hotels that I have spend a night that do not have all rooms with internet.
when I get to the hotel ,the only thing I want is to take a shower and go to sleep.
it is not that I don't want to reply to all the posts , my God I will,eventually . Let me have some rest brother , I,m 56 and thats what I need now .....Good night .