Martin Amis: Islamic states are less evolved

[MikeyDB]

Geez Gopher....

If a people are selected for extinction.....



When we choose to alienate one culture or one people, we're denying our very nature as living beings moving through this transition we call "existence"....

Evolution means: Guaranteeing as far as can be achieved that the species survives.....

Entertaining notions about which indian or which color or which gender "deserves" to be regarded as "less-evolved" is self-condemnation.

Reagan and Americans regard everyone who isn't an American as a disposable commodity. A disposable commodity sitting on petroleum reservoirs...impinging on the rights of American businesses to reap huge profits through near and actual slavery....

Ask any American and they'll tell you that the highest-order of human life is ....American!

 

[Zzarchov]

Well MikeyDB..

As I stated (and used an example), I would see those pre-modern cultures of imperialist europe as less evolved than the current european culture (which isn't the same culture anymore, cultures change).

The very fact that you have the ability to think of violence and oppression in the name of your country as wrong shows that the current culture is not only different but continually changing.


So if you can go with the fact that western culture was horrid and has changed to better (if not good, but surely you can admit better)

Would it not make sense that a culture which by its own definitions is untouched for 500 years would throw a monkey wrench into all cultures being equal.

Either it spent 475 years being superior to the west and now its equal, or it was equal for some length of time and is now less evolved.


But cultures change, some change faster than others meaning some get stuck in the past and keep doing all those nasty things you said.



oh and "just the facts", its 49.6% of statistics are made up..do some fact checking..sheesh.

 

[gopher]

``Reagan and Americans regard everyone who isn't an American as a disposable commodity.``


100 % correct.

When a Westerner is a victim of attack it is called ''terrorism''.

When the USA murders hundreds of thousands overseas, it is called ''diplomacy''. The correct designation is terrorism. Then when you do the numbers, you will realize that 87 % of the terrorism is not in created in Pakistan, but in Washington, DC.

 

[MikeyDB]

Well MikeyDB..

As I stated (and used an example), I would see those pre-modern cultures of imperialist europe as less evolved than the current european culture (which isn't the same culture anymore, cultures change).

The very fact that you have the ability to think of violence and oppression in the name of your country as wrong shows that the current culture is not only different but continually changing.


So if you can go with the fact that western culture was horrid and has changed to better (if not good, but surely you can admit better)

Would it not make sense that a culture which by its own definitions is untouched for 500 years would throw a monkey wrench into all cultures being equal.

Either it spent 475 years being superior to the west and now its equal, or it was equal for some length of time and is now less evolved.


But cultures change, some change faster than others meaning some get stuck in the past and keep doing all those nasty things you said.



oh and "just the facts", its 49.6% of statistics are made up..do some fact checking..sheesh.

Cultural "sophistication" changes, indeed it does, but linking the concept of "evolution" to something as artificial as the social organizing principles is arrogant at a minimum and fascist at the extreme.

And no I won't grant a blanket of "approved" on western cultures, that's like buying-into the American way of doing things....

"The ends justify the means".....

While I agree with the notion that any social organizing principle bound to fundamentalist religious "belief" makes a sound basis for arguing the unsuitability of that principle in a modern world, western cultures and societies have behaved with all the same despicability as have many other cultures and societies this kind of thinking would be inclined to characterize as "less evolved".

Perhaps you could indulge my ignorance by qualifying what an "evolved" social organizing principle or "culture" looks like....

 

[Zzarchov]

when a westerner is killed its not terrorism.

In many cases its not labelled that. A good rule of thumb, is are you trying to something besides kill people when they die.

getting on a bus full of israeli citizens, you're whole target is to kill as many civilian people as possible.

Shooting a soldier and sending a spray of stray bullets into a crowd (also happens in Israel) is not terrorism.

 

[Zzarchov]

to MikeyDB:

At the point you consider it wrong to kill someone for their Gender, Race, Sexual Orientation or Religion. I will consider that a step up. Even if in practice you can't enforce this..if culturally you accept it as wrong. That is an evolved concept.

 

[gopher]

``Shooting a soldier and sending a spray of stray bullets into a crowd (also happens in Israel) is not terrorism.``


Slaughtering 300,000 Ixil civilians is also not considered terrorism because it was done at the behest of white Christian Republicans. Imperialistic terrorism and genocide is the proper categorization - had it been done by ''less evolved'' Muslims, this is how it would be called.

 

[YoungJoonKim]

This topic is grossly wrong but at same time, intriguing..
continue this..drama
And thank you for you're inputs ladies & gentlemen

 

[Zzarchov]

``Shooting a soldier and sending a spray of stray bullets into a crowd (also happens in Israel) is not terrorism.``


Slaughtering 300,000 Ixil civilians is also not considered terrorism because it was done at the behest of white Christian Republicans. Imperialistic terrorism and genocide is the proper categorization - had it been done by ''less evolved'' Muslims, this is how it would be called.

I believe you think thats how it would pan out.

But it wouldn't. If you honestly think people see other people walking down the street and go..

"OH MY GOD! YOUR SKIN HAS THE SAME LOW PIGMENT LEVELS AS MINE! WE ARE BOTH WHITES! LETS BE BFF FOREVER AND HATE PEOPLE WITH MORE MELANIN!"

Then get off it. If they were killed for less than deserving causes its almost certainly money, the same net reasons why they kill others themselves.

 

[Just the Facts]

300,000 Ixil Indians killed by Reagan's financed terrorism in Guatemala?

Got any pictures?

 

[Just the Facts]

oh and "just the facts", its 49.6% of statistics are made up..do some fact checking..sheesh.

Yeah I've heard about the 49.6% theory. Steven Wright says it's 42.7%. I've always said it's 87%, but just the other day a buddy of mine said it's 54%.

Go figure.

 

[gopher]

Zzarchov,

Nobody here is talking about what is going on the city streets. We're talking about the double standards used when describing international terrorism.

The idea that 87 % of all terrorism is took place in Pakistan without regarding the crimes committed by Reagan, in supporting General Rios Montt, the Contras, and right wing death squads in El Salvador and Honduras, is a total absurdity. Many hundreds of thousands died because of these acts of terrorism. Yet, people continually sidestep discussion of these crimes while falsely attributing all of the world's terrorism to one exclusive group.

Terrorism is a crime against humanity. But the idea that we should condemn one series of crimes while conveniently ignoring the others which have resulted in far more deaths removes any claim to morality on the part of Westerners.

 

[gopher]

Got any pictures?

See my previous posts on the subject. More articles are available all over the Internet.

 

[Just the Facts]

See my previous posts on the subject. More articles are available all over the Internet.

Who cares about articles, got any pictures?

 

[Just the Facts]

But the idea that we should condemn one series of crimes while conveniently ignoring the others which have resulted in far more deaths removes any claim to morality on the part of Westerners.

Whose idea was that?

 

[Zzarchov]

Zzarchov,

Nobody here is talking about what is going on the city streets. We're talking about the double standards used when describing international terrorism.

The idea that 87 % of all terrorism is took place in Pakistan without regarding the crimes committed by Reagan, in supporting General Rios Montt, the Contras, and right wing death squads in El Salvador and Honduras, is a total absurdity. Many hundreds of thousands died because of these acts of terrorism. Yet, people continually sidestep discussion of these crimes while falsely attributing all of the world's terrorism to one exclusive group.

Terrorism is a crime against humanity. But the idea that we should condemn one series of crimes while conveniently ignoring the others which have resulted in far more deaths removes any claim to morality on the part of Westerners.

One thing that is always true of humanity is that they like to kill other humans. Maybe we should stop bull****ting ourselves that that is a crime against humanity and admit that is humanity at its core, no different than two roosters killing each other.

Its what we were made to do. Call it succumbing to humanity and work on fighting that, but when you call it "crimes against humanity" it seems to spread the false image that these are somehow mindless mutants intent on death and regular joes like you and I couldn't POSSIBLEY engage in these sort of acts if put in that position.

And so nothing is learned.

 

[gopher]

it seems to spread the false image...


I certainly would not want to call it a picnic or cause for celebration.



......................................................................................................


Anyone who wants pictures of Ixils persecuted by the racist military junta in Guatemala may ask for them from the following:


http://www.guatemalasolidarity.org.uk/

 

[JoeSchmoe]

It depends how you measure "evolved". In the case of human rights, the answer is a most definite "yes, they are less evolved than the West". Women's rights, minority rights, voting rights... go down the list and they are certainly "less evolved" as a society.

But then, the USA is less evolved than Canada and much of Europe when it comes to human rights as well... it's a matter of degree.

However, it certainly doesn't mean that western societies are perfect by any means... In general, we seem to be taking a step back lately. i.e. the Canadian complicity in the torture of Maher Arar, Canada eliminating some personal freedoms in the "war on terror", etc.

 

[damngrumpy]

To start with, old business in this discussion, the Basque movement is no on the Islands, they are on the mainland of Spain, Cosica and Sardinia are off the coast of Italy. The Basque region is on the boarder with France, but on the Spainish side. The Basque movement is a liberation army trying to win statehood for that region. The IRA conflict is not a religious or cultural conflict, as the Irish Republican Army, waged war on the British occupation of Northern Ireland Either of these groups could be called terrorists or freedom fighters depending on your point of view.
It should be remembered that back at the time of the crusuades, the Muslim world was moderate, they had libraries, they gave us our current number system and so on. The Barbarians from the northern regions came out the European dark ages, to reclaim the Holy Land and began killing them.
As if that wasn't enough the next group of imperialists made colonies out of former tribal states.
They milked whatever wealth and power they could, keeping the locals down curlturally and intellectually and then when there was nothing more to gain they left their mess behind. The national boundries were colonial bounderies and did not recognize the tribal terrorities and these dispute of territory still exists today for that reason.
Uneducated, unemployed and hungry people will do strange things, even seek revenge, history and its consequences have long lasting effects and accountability for all of us.
If we are aware of what we have done maybe we can understand why we find ourselves in the mess we are in. What the west needs to do is encourage the economic developement of the region and bring some real prosperity to the ordinary families and stop enriching the lives of the nobles and the rich, who insist on keeping the people in the third world they are in

 

[YoungJoonKim]

If I go to Seoul, I see Korean-Capitalistic Society.
If I go to Toronto, I see crazy cultural all mixed together with all kinds of Shrines for different gods [my God has lots of churches weeee]...in a Western society
If I go to rural village in Canada, I see electricity and people with SUVs.
But will I see these in Saudi Arabia or Iran?

I guess all depends on "what we like and what we cherish" in my opinion.