DND to argue legal obligations regarding detainees
- Thread starter BitWhys
- Start date
Nothing like the kettle calling the pot black eh?
I do not support torture a common method of interogation, there are many more viable and valuable way of getting the info we need. What I am against is people like you passing judgement without knowledge of the situation. And refusing to broaden the data base in their heads with reality.
You blindly follow a political ideology, dismiss the reality of the situation.
You don't appose torture, you appose the Conservatives, where were you when the Liberals were building their plans on what to do with detainees? While the CDN Forces were handing detainees over under the Liberal leadership?
OH ya, the left was in charge...
You're as easy to see through as my office window...Hmmm, I need to clean those...
So super star...What do we do with detainees then?
And why don't you release the vacuum tight liplock you have on Bushs ass.
We're supposedly in Afghanistan to give the local government a chance to develope into a more democratic and responsible future for Afghanistan. How's that going to happen if we're turning our attention away from that government violating international human rights.
Under Harper more Canadians have died in combat since Korea to support a government that is allowing the production of almost all the herion in the world. It's members include men responsible for atrocities more serious than anything the Taliban ever did, and they're trying to push official amnesty for themselves through the Afghan Parliment.
Canadians are dying fighting for the same kind of criminals we've traditionally fought against, manipulating our laws so we can turn captives over to be tortured is just going to make our duplicity that much worse.
Oh yes another intellectual to play with, lol...Why don't you check out some of my threads on Bush, like "Kermit the Bush and so on...
Like you left fringe folk like to say..."Who are we to impose our laws on other nations?" Our mandat is to secture a failed state.
Nothing like missing the fact that the mandate we are currently serving in Aghanistan was implemented by the LPoC and not the CPoC, the CPoC was just unlucky enough to have more casualties under their watch, but it is hardly their fault. Had the LPoC not let the CDN Forces afll into such a state of disrepair, we would have the necessary helo's to fly in and out of combat and our death toll would be far less.
So manipulating our laws to allow war criminals to hide out in Canada is much better?
You people need to pic a path and stick to it.
Hey I have a fishing forum you can talk about all the trolling you do...But there we're actually talking about fishing, lol.
Kettles and pots, kettles and pots...
That's what it comes down to, if we're in Afghanistan to support a government that tortures its citizens, as it has in the past, that's a pretty clear reason to get out.
In the areas where Canada is operating, the local population is tribal with some very traditional views on life. Revenge is considered to be not only acceptable but required for honor, if we're turning over people captured locally to the Kabul regime to be tortured we're creating a reason for their relatives to stage revenge attacks on our troops. What Harper is doing to please Bush is putting our soldiers at even greater risk, one more indication of how little he cares for the people he's supposed to represent.
What an utter load of shyte...The current mission mandate hasn't changed since the LPoC sanctioned it. All Harper did was increase our mandates stay in country...
You fringe people really need to enlighten yourselves...A LOT!!!8O
at the very least its a pretty clear reason not to join in the race to the lowest common denominator.
Oh you'ld know all about that eh bit? How many of Harpers cabinette have you called nazi's or fascists now?
Good grief, grow up...If you refuse to accept fact, that's fine, but don't go off all half calked when you get trumped by someone that knows what time it is in a combat situation. You have not one clue what a war zone is like, you have no idea what our international obligations are and you refuse to educate yourself, fine. Live blind, but don't cry when your short comings are handed to you along with your ass.
Why don't you and the kid get yourselves a fresh slice of bread and some new pics of Harper to deface and have yourselves a marry afternoon...Hell...I'll even buy you guys the big bold "Sharpies" too...
This pleases no one but Bush...and the drug dealers who are making a literal killing exporting their poison to the west with our protection.
If we're not there to help make positive changes then what the hell are we doing. Allowing the government we're helping keep in power violate the same standards Canadians have fought and died for for generations is an insult to them.
This has nothing to do with the Liberals, they haven't been in power for over a year and a half. Your little monkeys have been running the show and have actually been trying to conceal what's been going on in Afghanistan to avoid losing public support. When it's revealed that the Canadian military is running a program to decieve it's own citizens in collusion with the government to allow the continuation of a very controversial war then there's a problem.
I don't support that, never have.
Says who? We live in a changing world and deciding to follow one path even if conditions and our knowledge of them is constantly changing is moronic. Especially when our young men and women are dying terrible deaths.
You think people are dueche bags who don't support putting our soldiers in the line of fire for no good cause, I think people who want to see our young die protecting a government full of drug lords and war criminals are a hell of a lot worse than that.
Shame on you for supporting the same sort of crimes Canadians fought against in WW II and the Cold War. Tortures' wrong and so are you for even indirectly supporting it.
And of course the people that can breath free now, but hey, don't let that stop you from pushing a political ideology, instead of facts...
Ya those new schools, raods, hospitals and other major infrastructure changes are just sooo negative, blinded by your ideology yet again.
rotflmffao...Yes it does, it's their mandate, their mission plan...But hey, I won't wait for you to get your facts straight.
So what's your plan then, you seem all to able to critise one group for their ideas, but haven't offered a solution...
The comment actually speaks to the fact that you can't stick to one common path, you jump all over the place contradicting yourselves.
Oh yay, another one that doesn't know the 400 year old history of the yellow ribbon and the meaning of "Support our Troops"...Why am I not supprised???!!!
Ya ya ya, yadda yadda yadda, you fringe elliments are all the same, when you're losing, just make shyte up, good grief, get a grip and grow up...
I'm sorry but Bitwhys is on the right side with his stance on torture. Your attitudes are a part of the problem. The trouble is you share such views of treatment over people on the Canadian side of the fence and not the Afghan side where such thinking can be more accepted.
Here... or there... it's all the same s_hit attitude to human worth that is a part of why the problem exists. I don't know how you think we got to the level of civility in this country, but it sure wasn't through your hard-line view to the value of people.
So with that said, your welcome to post and be a torture apologist, but don't expect to convert people to your way of thinking or seeing the world.
All political rhetoric aside, the fact is that if we are to maintain any credibility on the world stage, we should have higher standards than the bare minimum. I mean, in one breath we are there to liberate a subdued group of people, the whole spreading freedom and liberty take. In the other breath, we have some who don't think they deserve the basic rights that we have. What do these mixed signals say about Canada?
Abuse cannot be tolerated under our banner. It undermines the mission. I guess this is what happens when a group of people are liberated and not ready for the liberation they had little part in taking back.
Abuse cannot be tolerated under our banner. It undermines the mission. I guess this is what happens when a group of people are liberated and not ready for the liberation they had little part in taking back.
Oh I wouldn't think of trying to convert the enlightend ones that take the world and view it in the relative comfort provided for them by guys like me.
You go on living with the ideology that you can treat everyone with the same kid gloves, including in a war zone, and see how long you last...We are not talking about Joe average Ahkbar here, we are talking about insurgents caught in the act. Nothing like wanting to re-invent the Miltary justice system when we're in it up to our eye holes.
That sort of utterly stupid thinking is what kills Troopers faster then lightning.
All I have to say, is you all have a good nights sleep, my brothers are on guard for thee.
Ton, at least you use intellect to post, but you too seem to forget we aren't talking about civilians here, we're talking about combatants and we are not about to change the world over night.
I don't like the taste of this anymore then anyone else, but I'm not about to start calling out leaders because the ugliness of war is seen on the evening news...
These are the very real realityies of what war is like...Some day we will all stop fighting and get along...Until then shytes gunna get foggy and we'll be forced to do things we find utterly distasteful, that will ultimately justify the means.
But being blind to actually put the processes in place, blurring the reality of the situation, making judgement on a situation from the comfort provided by those that do the dirty jobs while spewing contempt for them, is not going unchecked by this ex Trooper, period.
Do we really know that all the detainees are combatants?
With so many nations in this place, there ought to be some standard applied across the board, again mixed signals probably don't help the situation on the ground one bit. Maybe not Canadian or American or German or whatever nation is doing the capture, but since it is a UN mandate, perhaps those rules ought to be used.
Theres no way we can eliminate all the mistakes that are bound to happen in these situations, we're only human after all. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't take the proper steps to minimize them.
With so many nations in this place, there ought to be some standard applied across the board, again mixed signals probably don't help the situation on the ground one bit. Maybe not Canadian or American or German or whatever nation is doing the capture, but since it is a UN mandate, perhaps those rules ought to be used.
Theres no way we can eliminate all the mistakes that are bound to happen in these situations, we're only human after all. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't take the proper steps to minimize them.
Nope, but then again, it is a war zone...Nothing like having the luxury of time and a court system to determine things like that at your disposal...Unfortunetly, that is not a luxury that exists in combat...That gets people killed.
The CDN Forces are not out knocking down doors picking people, that appear on some list handed them by the States or the Afghan Gov't.
We have however picked up people indentified by our own sources and turned them over for detention to both American and Afghan authorities, because we lack the facilities to confine them.
Do realise that not everyone that is detained, is automatically handed over to other authorities, not is everyone tortured.
I would like to see the UN play a greater role in the detention and interogation of anyone captured in the field. But sadly that is not in place. So we have to work with what is at hand...It saves lives and is all that is in place. We can't re-invent the wheel over night.
This is why I like discussing these issues with you Ton...You understand that there isn't a black or white answer to the equation, that at times ugly things happen.
Should there be a better policy in place...Absolutely, but interogation should and must stay in place, albeit with the FBI's standards which were developed in WWII(LWF). They're non violenet and worked on the Japs. I have no hopes that anyone other then you will get the significance of that, they haven't the faintest idea about history and specifically military history.
The court case is not about mistakes and Hillier's chosen defense is arguing that he has no obligation not that he did what he could to meet it.
Like I said before, it makes my skin crawl.
We're talking about Canada looking the other way so the Kabul regime can torture prisoners, that doesn't sound very free to me. Some of it's members have records even darker than the Talibans, one Mujahadeen leader killed over 1,000 civilians after taking control of Kabul in the mid 1990s, he's now behind a law to forgive war crimes committed by northern commanders. The head of the drug enforcement ministry is reportedly the biggest dealer, what freedom is there in a state with such people in charge. The Taliban originally came to power as a reaction to the self-interest and corruption of the same people we're fighting to keep in power.
Nice fantasy, too bad the facts don't bare it out, most of the benefits are limited to areas near the capital and much of the aid has ended up in the hands of government members and warlords to buy their support. Like I said, the people we're backing have a long record of corruption and it's getting worse. Poppy production alone is up by a third this year, where do you think most of that production goes, to the streets of western countries making our social problems worse.
There are no easy answers, but dealing with the reality of the situation is better than changing our long support for international human rights. If we need to change how we apply our standards so we can stay then maybe it's time to leave.
I supported the invasion of Afghanistan when it looked like NATO might do some good there, but that's long since changed. By invading Iraq the US has ensured that it doesn't have the forces to successfully carry out either mission. And pouring money into an all ready corrupt government in Afghanistan has made things there worse not better, we needed to do more to encourage responsible government there, now we're just going to turn our backs on torture we made possible by delivering captives? How does that make us any different than the Serbs in Bosnia and Harper any different from Milosovic?
Grow up man, you're not the only one who supports the military men and women of this nation. I had a grandfather that served in the Canadian forces in both WWs and on my American side six relatives who went overseas for WW II, one didn't come back and one was disabled for life. My relatives have served in all the major wars of the last century and I have family serving in Iraq at the moment. I don't believe you support soldiers by demanding that they're put into impossible situations and that's what Afghanistan is, the fact we're now seeking ways to get around international humans rights protections indicates just how bad the situation is over there.
