America's next big blunder

[Avro]

No need to wonder. 1979 hostage crisis. Bombing of Marines in Lebanon. Hijackings. Murder of Americans on cruise ships. Blowing up embassies in Africa. Blowing up war ships in friendly ports. Bombing office towers. Flying planes into civilian office towers.

Did I miss anything? These all happened or were planned pre-Bush. Pre-"democracy by gun".

Involvement in the region of the middle east has been going on way before Bush and I never blamed him for it. He is the one currently creating chaos where none exsisted and making recruitment lines for terror longer.

We're not as dependant on the oil as is commonly purported. A small percentage of U.S. oil imports come from the middle east.

I heard it put into real terms once, I'll post a link if I find it....but it was along the lines of - if everyone in the U.S. drove 5 minutes less a year they could eliminate middle east oil imports altogether. Again, I may be off on the details....maybe it was an hour less a year or a hundred miles less a year, I forget. But point being, it was pretty insignificant in light of the big picture.

That's lovely even though companies like Haliburton are making a fortune off it and the price depends on middle eastern oil and that is a vested interest to the economy.

That's all well and fine but it doesn't explain why the "extremists" ply their trade in places around the world that have nothing to do with the U.S., indeed nothing to do with the west in general, and definitely nothing to do with "democracy by gun".

For example Bangladesh; Nigeria; Sudan; Thailand; Ivory Coast; Chad; Indonesia; Malaysia; Lebanon among others.

This is why I say the problem is global, the problem is growing, and the problem has nothing to do with Bush, U.S. foreign policy, or "meddling" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sure, but they are not plying there trade against us. Also, if you believe the west has no role in these countries, you're nuts. Give the west time and there involvement will become more, how you say, obvious.

The problem is growing because of Bush's foreign policy and democracy by a gun.

 

[Toro]

Any coment regarding the distillation of these kinds of issues to the metric of dollars?

Does a metric dollar = 254 cents?

 

[Toro]

That's lovely even though companies like Haliburton are making a fortune off it and the price depends on middle eastern oil and that is a vested interest to the economy.

If the US left the middle east right now, the price of crude would soar.

 

[Avro]

Duh, thanks for having an astute grasp of the obvious.:roll:

Sad part is the admin of Bush didn't even see this coming and had no long term plan for places like Iraq. They though they would be pelted with rose petals but instead got pelted with shrapnel because in a typical manner they have no idea what goes on outside the United States.

 

[Avro]

BTW, who the hell is Eric Margolis and why do you people care what he thinks? I don't seem to have ever heard of him. Is he not that "big time" or something?

Mr. Margolis is the guy Walt knows nothing about but assumes what he is based on a difference of opinion. It was Walt afterall who began this distraction away from the issue at hand by using an ad hominem which is a classic con tactic.

Btw, where did dear Walt go?:lol:

 

[gopher]

Margolis never met a Rebuplican he didn't hate.

ReBUPlican --- ha, ha! A good one!!

 

[gopher]

Btw, where did dear Walt go?


:angryfire: ... he's in his perpetual two minute hate drill ...:angryfire:

 

[Walter]

ReBUPlican --- ha, ha! A good one!!

Oops, missed that one.

 

[gopher]

Ha, ha! I've done more than a few in my time ...

 

[Avro]

Still waiting Walt.....where is your evidence.

If you can't provide it then perhaps you should retract your bogus claims.

So much for cons being real men.:roll::lol:

 

[Toro]

That's lovely even though companies like Haliburton are making a fortune off it and the price depends on middle eastern oil and that is a vested interest to the economy.

and so

Duh, thanks for having an astute grasp of the obvious.:roll:

 

[Just the Facts]

Sure, but they are not plying there trade against us.

Exactly. Why is that? If it's all about U.S. foreign policy and the CIA in the sixties and islamophobia and etc. etc. etc. why are they plying their trade against someone who's not us?

I'll tell you why, it's because the problem is global, the problem is growing, and the problem has nothing to do with Bush, U.S. foreign policy (mid century CIA antics included), or "meddling" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sure, the aggressive response to the last straw (9/11) serves as a catalyst to the Jihad, but it's not a cause. It was happening already, and would have gained steam on it's own anyway even if Bush had stood at ground Zero on September 14th and said "aw shucks, we will just turn the other cheek and try to understand the motivation behind those people who knocked these buildings down!"

I don't understand western insistance on self-flagellation and propensity towards guilt. Bastards took hostages in 1979. Bastards blew up marines in Lebanon. Bastards killed innocent Americans on hijacked ships and planes, and bastards flew planes into the WTC and The Pentagon.

Plain and simple.

People love to talk about blowback re: the U.S.

Same goes.

 

[Just the Facts]

Diplomatic Immunity! It just came to me out of the blue...that was the show on TVO that Eric "I know! I've been there" Margolis used to be a guest panelist on. It was "funny" (Avro) because whenever he would get outclassed by Janice Stein or the guy from the Muslim Canadian Congress who would be on quite often, or, whoever, he pulled out his trump card...."I know! I've been there!" Janice Stein > "I've been there too!" :lol: She rocked.

 

[Avro]

Exactly. Why is that? If it's all about U.S. foreign policy and the CIA in the sixties and islamophobia and etc. etc. etc. why are they plying their trade against someone who's not us?

I'll tell you why, it's because the problem is global, the problem is growing, and the problem has nothing to do with Bush, U.S. foreign policy (mid century CIA antics included), or "meddling" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sure, the aggressive response to the last straw (9/11) serves as a catalyst to the Jihad, but it's not a cause. It was happening already, and would have gained steam on it's own anyway even if Bush had stood at ground Zero on September 14th and said "aw shucks, we will just turn the other cheek and try to understand the motivation behind those people who knocked these buildings down!"

I don't understand western insistance on self-flagellation and propensity towards guilt. Bastards took hostages in 1979. Bastards blew up marines in Lebanon. Bastards killed innocent Americans on hijacked ships and planes, and bastards flew planes into the WTC and The Pentagon.

Plain and simple.

People love to talk about blowback re: the U.S.

Same goes.

We left them alone.

You can ony push someone so much before they push back.

Unfortunatley it's all hypothetical at this point because the damage is done and has gotten worse with the war on terror and forced democracy.

 

[Avro]

Diplomatic Immunity! It just came to me out of the blue...that was the show on TVO that Eric "I know! I've been there" Margolis used to be a guest panelist on. It was "funny" (Avro) because whenever he would get outclassed by Janice Stein or the guy from the Muslim Canadian Congress who would be on quite often, or, whoever, he pulled out his trump card...."I know! I've been there!" Janice Stein > "I've been there too!" :lol: She rocked.

I've seen that show as well and often saw others get outclassed by Eric funny how you missed it, these things happen in a debate and for the most part I don't agree with Mr. Margolis on many things considering he is a con but I do respect him for stepping out of the box on GWB's imperilistic adventures.

Others include William F. Buckley, Francis fukkuyama and Pat Buchanan.

 

[MikeyDB]

Just the facts...

Study your history books my son.....

Wealthy empires like Britain and the United States have been involved in grooming foreign states for many many years. Not only have regime-change and weapons supply to "friendly" revolusionists and the murder of foreign leaders been going on all over the world at the behest of these two bullies, but the populations of these two nations have had their world-views and appetitie for consumption manipulated. The horror of war and History Channel and CNN and Fox are the visible expressions of manipulation, the more subtle things and many things that took place from the Spanish American war forward to today weren't covered by television....

When the Soviet Union tried to supply (and actually succeded to some degree) missiles to Cuba, the world very nearly went to war. Now the United States who has had a policy of putting missiles and "defense installations" in Canada and everywhere else it can wants missile bases throughout Europe...and this is different in which particular expression from what the Russkies did?

North America's "economy", a petroleum dependent economy has been sculpted by big money for decades. While American "Big Sugar" prompted regime-change in Haiti and lots of meddling in the affairs of Jamacia and the Carribean, those people and their culture are now the focus of fear for their "criminality" and there intransigence.

I'm not trying to be adversarial here JTF but there's much more going on in the world today that's been hidden from everyone than any single action or intrusion into foreign governments that can be readily identified as the "source" of so much trouble. And when the scab is peeled off, you and I wanted it this way. We wanted to buy cane sugar cheaper than beet sugar, we wanted the hundred and fifty mile an hour car to take the kids to soccer practice and we wanted unfettered consumption....nothing less would do.

Some will say that our natural predisposition to consume has been conditioned and that's got a kernel of truth to it, but the last thing anyone wants to do is admit that we've created the problems and we own the outcomes.....

 

[Avro]

Well said.....;-)

The West has a long dirty history in the region, imposing it's will on the people and we haven't learned a damn thing from our mistakes.....in fact, we've gotten worse.

 

[Just the Facts]

I've seen that show as well and often saw others get outclassed by Eric funny how you missed it, these things happen in a debate and for the most part I don't agree with Mr. Margolis on many things considering he is a con but I do respect him for stepping out of the box on GWB's imperilistic adventures.

Others include William F. Buckley, Francis fukkuyama and Pat Buchanan.

I never said he was an idiot (just a buffoon) :smile: and I never said he was always wrong or that he never won an argument. Just that he has a propensity to point out how he knows! he's been there! :lol:

So what did I miss, exactly?

 

[Just the Facts]

Just the facts...

Study your history books my son.....

So the Jihadi's are pissed-off about sugar cane? Enraged about poverty in Jamaica? Delirious about the Spanish American war?

Yeah, I think I remember Osama saying something about the Cuban missile crisis. And I know he's a big fan of Haitian voodoo :-?:?:

I'll be happy to keep studying, but you need a topic. None of these things have anything to do with the Jihad we are currently up against (which by the way started 1400 years ago) before wealthy empires like Britain and the United States even existed, let alone had been involved in grooming foreign states.

 

[Avro]

Operation Ajax may have influenced guys like Bin Laden.