Psychedelic substances and spiritual development

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Oh for crissake out loud... Indigo children? Auras? The next stage of human evolution? It's all New Age nonsense.

Hehehe. I started giggling the instant I saw you'd replied, and I could totally anticipate your input. I must say however, that I'm disappointed, as I expected there to be some link to the skeptic's dictionary. I guess my psychic ability is off today. Odd. ;-)

edit: it's not my psychic ability that's off... merely my ability to read.
 

Vereya

Council Member
Apr 20, 2006
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Oh for crissake out loud... Indigo children? Auras? The next stage of human evolution? It's all New Age nonsense.
1. There's no good evidence there's any such thing as Indigo children, as should be clear from the link to The Skeptic's Dictionary Vereya provided. It's all hearsay, anecdote, and wishful thinking: parents looking for some more positive explanation for their children's perceptual and developmental disorders.

Uh-huh. When the first kid without a tail was born, millions of years ago, there must have been great speculation about developmental disorders. :lol:
 

Vereya

Council Member
Apr 20, 2006
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Here's some more info:

When using power plants, you have to know, that the superficial distinctions of roles, status, race, etc., and even the difference between animated and inanimate will disappear the moment you realize that you and everything that surrounds you are just different forms of energy. Words, gestures, actions and events lose their meaning. Your thoughts are my thoughts, my feelings are your feelings. Communicationisnotnecessary. You will feel another person as if you were different parts of one and the same building. To reach that part, you can walk down the corridor, or you can get dressed, go outside, and enter through another door. The latter example refers to verbal communication. You can directly experience the mood and the feelings of another person, like you can your own. Thoughts can be transmitted by a look. While everything is all right, all the vibrations are “in-phase”. If someone slips out from the general mood, it is felt at once, like a discordant note in music. Trees, grass – these are just forms, too, different ripples of the same vibrations. The close harmony with these forms is a great definition of the trip state.

But you have to remember that the price of harmony is self-sacrifice. You will have to overcome the fear of death, the self-preservative instinct. You will realize just how illusive this world is, you will feel that you are a victim of a brilliant producer and that everything around is just a play of electromagnetic waves. The world around you is a stage, just a façade. You feel like you’ve got to run away from it!
Imdead! I will never think and feel again!” If you will try to run, you will get into the Third Bardo in the most unpleasant way and can really traumatize your personality. The best way to get rid of this fear is to remember this information, relax, merge with the dancing waves, or turn to your guide and tell him that you are in a “bad” phase, and he will get you out of it.

You can make a choice. Explore new horizons. Symbols will turn into things and vice versa. Words will turn to things, thoughts and music, music will acquire a smell, you’ll be able to touch the sounds, all the senses are merged, and you can separate and enhance them according to your wish.


Everything is possible. You can easily change your moods. External objects dance and sing, your brain plays them like a musical instrument. Your brain is like a computer with countless programs. Personal memories float on the surface of your awareness like air bubbles. Everything
becomesaMysticpanorama.

If you cannot remain in passive tranquility, necessary to review your past, you will get into a more dramatic and active phase. The play of forms and figures becomes the play of archetypes, heroes, demigods, etc. You can see shining human figures, whose appearance depends upon you past, the traditions of your people, etc. The forms may be different, but their source is one and the same – your psyche.


Enlightenment is guaranteed, if one follows certain instructions. The difference between those who understand it, and those who don’t, is simple. Some will get enlightenment earlier, others will at first suffer from fears. But the outcome will be the same – both will acquire awareness.


During a trip one might feel that he has some paranormal abilities in the realm of perception or motion, and that he can perform miracles of self-control. The Tibetan Book of the Dead explicitly refers these paranormal abilities to Bardo, a state of your consciousness, and explains them by the fact that in Bardo your consciousness is surrounded by the elements of your past and future. In other words, a person gets access to the memories of his own past lives, as well as the past lives of all the living beings. Clairvoyanceandtelepathybecomequitepossible.

Ancient Pagan cults teach that one shouldn’t get carried away by these psychic energies. Until the initiated person is ready to use them in a wise and rational way, they might be a hindrance for higher cognition. Until the initiated gets total control over himself, Mystic powers are very dangerous for him.


Every person has a certain negative and positive game legacy (karma). The continuity of consciousness is broken by the death of one’s ego. The incredible power and flexibility your brain acquires in this condition ensures the efficiency of understanding of any doctrine. The teaching of the Tibetan Book of the Dead is like a catapult that will start a person on his way to liberation. Psychedelic substances’ role can be compared to water. A large ship that a hundred people can’t move easily floats upon the water. A tripper should try to keep in memory as much of this teaching as he can. It will set you free without the need for ritual or complex meditation. With the help of psychedelics freedom from the hard karma is acquired in a Secret Way.


After you come back you will see a world full of amazing events and discoveries, where you will soon take you place. The key to a safe return is to be calm, natural, not to hurry. Enjoy every second of your life, and make no haste.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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You know I was with you right up until we got into all this stuff. Drugs are as I've mentioned before, like a good tool. In the right hands, it can produce miraculas amounts of creativity and act as a catalyst to view thoughts and develop ideas from a different view point than you might have had without them.

At the same time, they have attractive qualities that for most of the people who try them without guidence, are "trippy" and fun for a while. It seems that this nonsence that all drugs are good for all people is only used by those control freaks among us who either want people to buy into their story or scare you away from others.

That some people abuse drugs much like they abuse other things in their life, should not be a point of reason and example of everyone's experience.

The telepathy you mention is common, just ask any married couple or those who have spent years together everyday and they will tell you all about how they think of many of the same things that their partner is thinking at the same time. Of course everyone talks to communicate but there are many more aspects to that than just vocal communication. We reason, anticipate, and experience the same response to emotional ques because of the similarities in likes and dislikes coupled with shared experiences.

I don't think anyone needs to take drugs to find that.

And that tail that fell off, it's right there lurking just under the surface and is present in the womb during early stages of development. Not gone, just out of the way.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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The majority of people who try exotic drugs generally do so for recreational and relief purposes and find enough satisfactory outcomes - especially in that many are able to put the concept away and monitor their desires so they do not become addicted or find life without drug use unbearable.

There are those who have experienced vast flares of cognition or what they believe to be exposure to a plane of beyond the here and now dull world we live in and they are in thrall of their experiences.

If they are able to enjoy and relish in the experience - that is well and good - but unfortunately life in reality does not operate under exotic flash and reactive behavior or long lasting intuitive knowledge occasioned by drug influence on the brain.

And sadly these great experiments in beyond the norm - can only be experienced with the use of these drugs which of necessity then become part of the user's world. I mean who wouldn't want to experience these beautiful occasions over and over...a siren's song.

Finally - in order to spread the joy - the users begin their long theses for others to join the joy. The internet in particular is a great way to find an audience - lonely people in particular who lack fulfillment. The message is honest - the wish to share is also honest - the result is unreliable.

It is however their choice - I wish all them satisfactory outcomes, new lives and opening up the mind to new experiences - and most of all I wish them continued good physical/mental health.

However the reality is not always what we wish for - or often we get what we wish for with ruined lives and empty shells devoid of real emotion and lacking courage while having to exist in what seems to them now - a drab and mundane world. And sadly without the drugs - some feel they have become lesser in importance and impact in their world - they have become lesser in all things - for with the drugs they have experienced voyages of the soul in which they become masters of their destiny.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Uh-huh. When the first kid without a tail was born, millions of years ago, there must have been great speculation about developmental disorders. :lol:
Highly doubtful, more likely it'd have died of natural causes because it didn't have the tail necessary to provide grip and balance while leaping about in the trees and would have fallen, i.e. it was unfit for the environment it was born into. That's assuming it ever happened at all; evolution rarely proceeds by jumps like that.
...the difference between animated and inanimate will disappear the moment you realize that you and everything that surrounds you are just different forms of energy. ...
Typical New Age mysticism, tossing around vaguely scientific-sounding words like energy and vibration as if you know what they mean. What you're describing are drug-induced hallucinations, that is, perceptual distortions caused by disrupting the normal electrochemical states of your brain. Psychedelic substances are no more a path to spiritual development than drunkenness, a sharp blow to the head, or a high fever are.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Highly doubtful, more likely it'd have died of natural causes because it didn't have the tail necessary to provide grip and balance while leaping about in the trees and would have fallen, i.e. it was unfit for the environment it was born into. That's assuming it ever happened at all; evolution rarely proceeds by jumps like that.
Typical New Age mysticism, tossing around vaguely scientific-sounding words like energy and vibration as if you know what they mean. What you're describing are drug-induced hallucinations, that is, perceptual distortions caused by disrupting the normal electrochemical states of your brain. Psychedelic substances are no more a path to spiritual development than drunkenness, a sharp blow to the head, or a high fever are.

How the hell do you judge a personal experince that you know nothing about?
I'd like to see where it is that you get your information from.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Only a fool learns by experience alone. I get my information from reading a lot, talking to people whose judgment and knowledge I respect, and thinking about things.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Vereya

You write about 'negative attitudes' regarding psychedlics by those who have not tried or experienced them.

I have an extremely negative attitude because I am concerned with rebuilding some shattered minds resulting from psychedelic trips which continue to plague the victim post experience.

Having seen such impact on previously healthy functioning brains, I am bound to feel these are not productive to our psyche as we are only on a threshold of knowledge - and perhaps if there were more unharmed people within my realm of acquaintance or study I would feel differently.

Still even one is too many. I cannot condone the risk to humans. There are no controls available to us to temper the impact at the present time - perhaps in the future - but that is not for me to choose. I have to work with the here and now.

I can understand why you feel that way.

I was one of those shattered minds. In fact, before being diagnosed with a drug induced psychosis in the final years at high school, I was chronically depressed and even suicidal. In lifting myself out of the psychosis I found personal strength and finally began a happy life.

More and more we shelter ourselves from risks. Required seat belts and helmets, fences, regulations everywhere. In the country a pond is just a pond and is left alone, if you have a pond in a town you have to put a fence up to prevent people from drowning, in the country they would just drown. I go to a park because the view is nice, only to find that the vista has been obstructed by three meter chain link fence. I wear helmets and seat belts because they make sense to me, but the chain link fence destroys the purpose of going to those mountain vistas.

The "war on certain drugs" needs to stop. It makes no sense to declare war on marijuana as our nation drowns itself in the beer bottle. It makes no sense to declare war on cocaine when so many people are consuming copious quantities of caffeine. I have seen more lives destroyed from the criminal aspect of drug control than I have seen from drug abuse and accessibility of drugs have increased over my lifetime.

But I can certainly understand why you would want to minimize the number of shattered minds, I just don't think that shattering lives has proved effective. :(

Curiosity:

On the subject of risk. . .

Almost everything I do carries a risk of harm - actually, it was Pascal who said that it is life itself, and the mere act of living it, that carries risk of harm.

Maybe he was the first to say (in a paraphrase), "Nobody move and nobody gets hurt."

I like to ride my bikes quickly, over long distances, and in remote places. Soon I will do a one day ride from Castlegar to Creston - a high, steep, hot, dry, remote ride. I am 44 years old.

I faint when I get too hot. My father died of a heart attack, not much older than I am now.

There is a chance I will crash, or my bicycle will break, or some other ill fortune will befall me. While I try to prepare for this, the risk is real and yet it does not stop me. Why?

Because the pleasure gained from the activity is worth the risk to me.

Same goes for hiking, carpentry (I've nipped the ends of a couple of my fingers off), ocean kayaking - heck, even cooking is a risk.

Drugs are in a different category for most people - I'm not sure why. The millions of folks who take drugs regularly (and have for hundreds of thousands of years) with no ill effects far outnumber the folks who are damaged by them - just like my bike riding.

Should cycling be outlawed because some people are hurt, crippled, even killed by bicycle riding?

If a drug can, even temporarily, increase happiness for the user, that is a benefit that only the most narrow-minded could discount.

Freedom = exposure to risk. For me, the thought of living in a nanny state really annoys me.

Pangloss

Yeah, sums up some of my feelings as well. But we need to find balance, we obviously want bicycle to follow certain behaviours on the road, otherwise there would be all sorts of unnecessary accidents to people - and not necessarily the bicycle rider.

To me, there is no legitmate reason for preventing people from partaking in risky behaviour when the only person at risk is themself. True, there are certain arguments which you can pose about drugs destroying families, any accidental death would do the same, so how high does the risk have to be? Also, how can anyone say that I don't have a right to suicide? Do I own my life or not?

If not, all the more reason to kill oneself. So no, I say: I own my life.
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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Couple of thoughts on the tail in our early physical structure

The tail was probably necessary for balance of movement for a four-legged creature as Dexter writes -

It may have acted as a communicating device before language evolved - we still read 'tails' on some of our domestic animals - who show emotions through them -

As man became an upright walker/mover....

It may have been an impediment to movement once bi-pedal and more efficient walking was attained - especially if it dragged on the ground or was longer than the legs themselves.

It may have been the basis for a longer spinal column - and eventually incorporated within the structure of the body as part of the spine -
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Niflmir

Thank you for your kind words and sharing your experience:

I was one of those shattered minds. In fact, before being diagnosed with a drug induced psychosis in the final years at high school, I was chronically depressed and even suicidal. In lifting myself out of the psychosis I found personal strength and finally began a happy life.

There is nothing as frustrating as seeing a beautiful, intelligent, creative mind destroyed (whether permanently or temporarily) by an experiment in trying for 'more'.

We would never watch in silence while a friend jumped off a bridge. Why do we think it is ok with peoples' minds?

I am glad you found your way back. I love to hear the successes.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Niflmir

Thank you for your kind words and sharing your experience:

There is nothing as frustrating as seeing a beautiful, intelligent, creative mind destroyed (whether permanently or temporarily) by an experiment in trying for 'more'.

We would never watch in silence while a friend jumped off a bridge. Why do we think it is ok with peoples' minds?

I am glad you found your way back. I love to hear the successes.

Strangely enough, I was trying to quit doing drugs for a full year before the psychosis befell me. It had ceased to be enjoyable for me and I didn't really want to do it anymore, so I stopped buying it. My friends always had enough...

It really is important to change your lifestyle, and in the last year of high school, that was particularly difficult as I was already pegged so few people wanted to be my friend.

As a side note, I basically believed that I was the only sentient being and that everything was a figment of my imagination. That there was so much suffering in the world was therefore my fault somehow. If I could only open up my subconscious mind I could right the wrongs. Yup, psychosis. I have since learned that contrary to popular belief, we do use the full extent of our brain. Much more than that 10% rubbish, which may have fueled my insanity.
 
May 28, 2007
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Honour our Fallen
Couple of thoughts on the tail in our early physical structure

The tail was probably necessary for balance of movement for a four-legged creature as Dexter writes -

It may have acted as a communicating device before language evolved - we still read 'tails' on some of our domestic animals - who show emotions through them -

As man became an upright walker/mover....

It may have been an impediment to movement once bi-pedal and more efficient walking was attained - especially if it dragged on the ground or was longer than the legs themselves.

It may have been the basis for a longer spinal column - and eventually incorporated within the structure of the body as part of the spine -

Erm uh apes don't have tails...monkeys on the other hand......

I thought we were fear driven into our present state.....

out of the trees looking for food on all fours.....then one of us stood up to have a look see......that started the process ..no....



Back to topic......


This whole anti new age thing.....actually you can find me in that section of book stores all the time...but I'm not comfy with the label and what it implies....no big whoop......i got another doozer of an acid trip to lay on you which comes in nicely with
Vereya's more info post......

Which by the way was not so different than what she has been on about....why that one loses someone i dunno? Shift in politics maybe...seen it before....
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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I have since learned that contrary to popular belief, we do use the full extent of our brain. Much more than that 10% rubbish, which may have fueled my insanity

"The 10% statement may have been started with a misquote of Albert Einstein or the misinterpretation of the work of Pierre Flourens in the 1800s. It may have been William James who wrote in 1908: "We are making use of only a small part of our possible mental and physical resources" (from [SIZE=-1]The Energies of Men, p. 12[/SIZE]). Perhaps it was the work of Karl Lashley in the 1920s and 1930s that started it. Lashley removed large areas of the cerebral cortex in rats and found that these animals could still relearn specific tasks. We now know that destruction of even small areas of the human brain can have devastating effects on behavior. That is one reason why neurosurgeons must carefully map the brain before removing brain tissue during operations for epilepsy or brain tumors: they want to make sure that essential areas of the brain are not damaged."

I remember someone telling me this when I was very young and I thought what a bunch of BS that has to be. As I began to learn about computers the obvious comparisons began to emerge. I understand that by around 2030 we will be able to make a computer that can surpass the human brain capacity of around 100 trillion per second. Which gives rise to thoughts of our likely eventual ability to replace parts or even all of a brain with a synthetic replacement much like a prosthesis. At that point will there come a time when we are actually only using 10% of our synthetic brain until we get an upgrade?
 
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Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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"The 10% statement may have been started with a misquote of Albert Einstein or the misinterpretation of the work of Pierre Flourens in the 1800s. It may have been William James who wrote in 1908: "We are making use of only a small part of our possible mental and physical resources" (from [SIZE=-1]The Energies of Men, p. 12[/SIZE]). Perhaps it was the work of Karl Lashley in the 1920s and 1930s that started it. Lashley removed large areas of the cerebral cortex in rats and found that these animals could still relearn specific tasks. We now know that destruction of even small areas of the human brain can have devastating effects on behavior. That is one reason why neurosurgeons must carefully map the brain before removing brain tissue during operations for epilepsy or brain tumors: they want to make sure that essential areas of the brain are not damaged."

I remember someone telling me this when I was very young and I thought what a bunch of BS that has to be. As I began to learn about computers the obvious comparisons began to emerge. I understand that by around 2030 we will be able to make a computer that can surpass the human brain capacity of around 100 trillion per second. Which gives rise to thoughts of our likely eventual ability to replace parts or even all of a brain with a synthetic replacement much like a prosthesis. At that point will there come a time when we are actually only using 10% of our synthetic brain until we get an upgrade?

That tickles me funny bone!
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Couple of thoughts on the tail in our early physical structure

The tail was probably necessary for balance of movement for a four-legged creature as Dexter writes -

It may have acted as a communicating device before language evolved - we still read 'tails' on some of our domestic animals - who show emotions through them -

As man became an upright walker/mover....

It may have been an impediment to movement once bi-pedal and more efficient walking was attained - especially if it dragged on the ground or was longer than the legs themselves.

It may have been the basis for a longer spinal column - and eventually incorporated within the structure of the body as part of the spine -

Considering that some breeds of monkeys and other occasionally bipedal creatures live on the ground and retained their tails, while some species of apes still live in trees, are not totally bipedal, and have lost their tails, most anthropologists have yet to crack the reasons behind us losing our tails. Evolution isn't always as smart or precise as some assume. The issue of the tail is likely to remain as much a mystery as why snakes and whales retained hip and pelvic bones
 
May 28, 2007
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Honour our Fallen
Considering that some breeds of monkeys and other occasionally bipedal creatures live on the ground and retained their tails, while some species of apes still live in trees, are not totally bipedal, and have lost their tails, most anthropologists have yet to crack the reasons behind us losing our tails. Evolution isn't always as smart or precise as some assume. The issue of the tail is likely to remain as much a mystery as why snakes and whales retained hip and pelvic bones
hmmmm.....so i'm no anthropologist but did the apes evolve from monkeys?
And we from apes...We do have a tail bone...



They've got no horns and they've got no tail
They don't even know of our existence.
Am I wrong to believe in a city of gold
That lies in the deep distance, he cried
genesis
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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bliss
hmmmm.....so i'm no anthropologist but did the apes evolve from monkeys?
And we from apes...We do have a tail bone...

All mammals on earth have similar bone structures (whales have 'finger bones' in their flippers for example), implying we all evolved from one common ancestor. Monkeys and apes evolved side by side to the best of my knowledge, not one from the other. If we'd evolved from monkeys, monkeys wouldn't still be here, right?