`A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi...

[talloola]

Not a popular view, but I`m sure one shared by tens of millions worldwide. Just because over 3000 innocents(?) died that day does not make it any more tragic than the innocent lives lost by the west`s indiscrimate bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan before after the event. Oh but those lives lost are labeled `collateral damage` by our leaders and press.:roll:

The US had it coming to them and did nothing to stop it.

I agree with 'some' of what you say, but the fact is that, 911 happened before Afghanistan, and the
Taliban could have prevented any invasion of Afghanistan, and they chose, 'not' to hand over Bin Laden, so, in my opinion, there is some justice in the retalliation of the 911 event, which was not
done by any 'state', but by a disgruntled arab and his henchmen.
The Iraq situation is completely different, and I agree with you on that one. collateral damage is one
of the most sickening comments one can hear from a government.
Whatever happens to kill or hurt U.S. citizens as a result of the Iraq situation, is directly caused by
George Bush.

 

[Zzarchov]

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

Answer my question: If I murdered you because of what "the west did", Should I be set free because you had it coming and this was justice?

 

[Unforgiven]

1.) There is no "The US" its not some amorphous blob of protoplasm or some evil hive mind.

Just people like you. If someone shot you for what "The west" did , did you have it coming? Is it a just act that I shouldn't go to jail for if I convert to Islam and murder you?

There is just people. That they think killing innocents is ok means they can't see us killing innocents over there as wrong. Its either that or they are just hypocrites. Im betting they know 9/11 was wrong.

This is why I have started to think that all out total war is the answer. No more collateral damage, no more thinking that bombing a country might affect the people there but not those who actually start and continue the wars.

It's the people that actually have the power and with the sanitized war that we have now, among the distractions, coddles the populous into an apathy. While we are at war, I can still head out to Wonderland and spend the day or as many days as I like having a really good time. If war was as serious as we've been led to believe from our ancestors, then I should be doing all I can to support our military, and not sipping cool drinks by the water putting all thoughts of war out of my mind.

Afghanistan needs a new government. The Taliban are evil and promote exactly that. The world is a better place without them. But what we have is a patchwork war blowing things up and killing people some of whom are accidental and causing more harm than good.

All out total war means just that. No collateral damage, all people are targets and unless there is surrender, there is annihilation. The US shouldn't be in Iraq. But everyone should be in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan under Taliban control, allowed Al Qaeda to operate training camps under the supervision of bin Laden. All or most of the terrorists who committed the acts of terrorism on 9/11 received training there.
There was plenty of opportunity to facilitate the end to Al Qaeda and the Taliban refused. This is why we are there.

This trying to shoot people hiding in a crowd war we have going on now will never end and only breeds hatred.

 

[MikeyDB]

Unforgiven

Are the Taliban Afghani?

Is there any truth to the rumor that the Taliban actually came from Pakistan?

Is there any truth to the rumor that Pakistan who is an "ally" of the United States is complicit in maintaining a porous border that is advantageous to the Taliban?

Why aren't Americans prepared to deal with Pakistan and yet more than prepared to identify "terrorism" in Afghanistan and demand the world "accept its responsibility" to join the U.S. in fighting this war on terrorism?

Is there any truth to the rumors that Uncol and American petroleum industries had an interest in Afghanistan that had absolutely nothing to do with gender and discrimination in Afghanistan?

 

[Minority Observer84]

I agree with 'some' of what you say, but the fact is that, 911 happened before Afghanistan, and the
Taliban could have prevented any invasion of Afghanistan, and they chose, 'not' to hand over Bin Laden, so, in my opinion, there is some justice in the retalliation of the 911 event, which was not
done by any 'state', but by a disgruntled arab and his henchmen.
The Iraq situation is completely different, and I agree with you on that one. collateral damage is one
of the most sickening comments one can hear from a government.
Whatever happens to kill or hurt U.S. citizens as a result of the Iraq situation, is directly caused by
George Bush.

Sorry I do not mean to mock the memory of the dead , all death loss of property or liberty saddens me , but the Taleban under mullah Omar made a very reasonable request , they stated that they would hand bin laden over to the US if the united states could come up with any evidence it's what ANY government on earth would have requested and still the United states refused , so Bin laden himself came up with a counter offer to sit trial in Pakistan and again the United states refused .
Keep in mind that under at this time the Taleban were still at war with the united states because of the bombing of terror training camps in eastren Afghanistan .

 

[Minority Observer84]

Again, read what your posting before you are posting that. None of that states democracy is a mandate. If it had, it never would have passed through the general assembly nor the security council.

An autocratic regime fits all those criteria as well. The freedom to choose your own leader is never mentioned in that charter.


You also keep saying because Iraq is worse this moment than it was under Saddam than he should stay in power.

Worse for whom? The kurds? No..rather than Genocide they have higher stability and a say in government.

The Shia? No..while they still face bombs and bullets, they are also now allowed to elect leaders and while it may not be much better if at all, it is certainly not worse. Whats more there is the chance for improvement rather than stagnation.

The Sunni? Oh yes, its far worse. Rather than ruling the majority of the populace with an Iron fist they are now a minority, who faces retribution.




Your logic means you think the End to Aparathied was wrong, because conditions actually worsened (crime rate for instance). I mean, for 75% of the population it got better, but that other 25% of ruling elite turned out way worse.

Lets not forget the civil rights movement in the USA, with the amount of extra damage that went on during that period, compared to levels before... it STILL hasn't evened out. Are you saying that was wrong?

I'd really like you to answer why these two situations are ok, or if you think they are also bad. And no magic hand waving "They just are different/ apples and oranges/ thats not the issue" etc.

First of all Iraq is worse now for everybody , many people have gone on record to say this including Prime minster Ayad Allawi to the Observer (A man part of the patzy government in Iraq and also a Shia , Koffe Annan while still secretary general of the UN to Al Jazera also UN Special investigator for torture Manfred Nowak went on record to say torture is worse in Iraq now than it was before , Even Hans Blix the man responsible for inspecting Iraqi weapons has gone on record saying the situation is worse directly due to the US invasion last but not least Amnesty International says that thousands are being held in Iraq without charge or sentence and has gone on record saying that the US war on terror is making the world worse . Really the question of weather Iraq is worse no than under Saddam is not academic it's an accepted fact by people on the ground .
Now as for how this is different from Apartheid and the civil rights movement in the US , the answer is simple in both cases these were internal conflicts and injustices solved through mostly peaceful means (During the world wide condemnation of apartheid the US government was still trading substantially with South Africa through Israel a whole other measure of hypocrisy that i won't bother go much into ) . In Other words most of the populations in both countries realized that it was wrong to class people by their race and took measures within their own countries to better the situation . Unless your are saying that somehow the US government has become the conscience of the Iraqi people it's an irrelevant comparison.

 

[JBeee]

Answer my question: If I murdered you because of what "the west did", Should I be set free because you had it coming and this was justice?

If it were an act of revenge by you for my putting a blind eye and indifference to the injustices my government enacted upon you in a foreign country, yes.

In the case of the towers being targeted,a symbol of `The` United State`$ world domination, I`d have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just my luck.

 

[Minority Observer84]

Unforgiven

Are the Taliban Afghani?

Is there any truth to the rumor that the Taliban actually came from Pakistan?

Is there any truth to the rumor that Pakistan who is an "ally" of the United States is complicit in maintaining a porous border that is advantageous to the Taliban?

Why aren't Americans prepared to deal with Pakistan and yet more than prepared to identify "terrorism" in Afghanistan and demand the world "accept its responsibility" to join the U.S. in fighting this war on terrorism?

Is there any truth to the rumors that Uncol and American petroleum industries had an interest in Afghanistan that had absolutely nothing to do with gender and discrimination in Afghanistan?

Thankfully someone here actually reads , yes there was a pipeline deal .And here it is .

Afghanistan plans gas pipeline

The pipeline is Afghanistan's biggest foreign investment project


Afghanistan hopes to strike a deal later this month to build a $2bn pipeline through the country to take gas from energy-rich Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India. Afghan interim ruler Hamid Karzai is to hold talks with his Pakistani and Turkmenistan counterparts later this month on Afghanistan's biggest foreign investment project, said Mohammad Alim Razim, minister for Mines and Industries told Reuters.
"The work on the project will start after an agreement is expected to be struck at the coming summit," Mr Razim said.
The construction of the 850-kilometre pipeline had been previously discussed between Afghanistan's former Taliban regime, US oil company Unocal and Bridas of Argentina.
The project was abandoned after the US launched missile attacks on Afghanistan in 1999.
US company preferred
Mr Razim said US energy company Unocal was the "lead company" among those that would build the pipeline, which would bring 30bn cubic meters of Turkmen gas to market annually.
Unocal - which led a consortium of companies from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Japan and South Korea - has maintained the project is both economically and technically feasible once Afghan stability was secured.
"Unocal is not involved in any projects (including pipelines) in Afghanistan, nor do we have any plans to become involved, nor are we discussing any such projects," a spokesman told BBC News Online.
The US company formally withdrew from the consortium in 1998.
"The Afghan side assures all sides about the security of the pipeline and will take all responsibilities for it," Mr Razim said.
Reconstructing
Afghanistan plans to build a road linking Turkmenistan with Pakistan parallel to the pipeline, to supply nearby villages with gas, and also to pump Afghan gas for export, Mr Razim said.
The government would also earn transit fees from the export of gas and oil and hoped to take over ownership of the pipeline after 30 years, he said.
The Asian Development Bank (ADB) has been surveying routes for transferring local gas from northern Afghan areas to Kabul, and to iron ore mines at the Haji Gak pass further west.
"ADB will announce its conclusion soon," Mr Razim said.
The pipeline is expected to be built with funds from donor countries for the reconstruction of Afghanistan as well as ADB loans, he said.

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1984459.stm

Not to mention that Karzi himself went on record saying that Nato forces are causing more death and destruction in his country than the Taleban . Of course right after that he signed a pardon for a German soldier convicted of torturing afghans .

 

[Minority Observer84]

This is why I have started to think that all out total war is the answer. No more collateral damage, no more thinking that bombing a country might affect the people there but not those who actually start and continue the wars.

The answer to what exactly ? I don't seriously think your advocating genocide of either the Iraqi or the Afghan populations .

It's the people that actually have the power and with the sanitized war that we have now, among the distractions, coddles the populous into an apathy. While we are at war, I can still head out to Wonderland and spend the day or as many days as I like having a really good time. If war was as serious as we've been led to believe from our ancestors, then I should be doing all I can to support our military, and not sipping cool drinks by the water putting all thoughts of war out of my mind.

Irrelevant to the argument at hand , this war is unjust so as soon as US troops are back in the United states you can go back to doing whatever it is you do for fun .

Afghanistan needs a new government. The Taliban are evil and promote exactly that. The world is a better place without them. But what we have is a patchwork war blowing things up and killing people some of whom are accidental and causing more harm than good.

Evil is a realitive term the Taliban were backward and advocated a totalitarian system of government but the warlord ruling much of Afghanistan are just as bad .

All out total war means just that. No collateral damage, all people are targets and unless there is surrender, there is annihilation. The US shouldn't be in Iraq. But everyone should be in Afghanistan.

Again it seems your advocating genocide it's not a rational position so you must mean something else .

Afghanistan under Taliban control, allowed Al Qaeda to operate training camps under the supervision of bin Laden. All or most of the terrorists who committed the acts of terrorism on 9/11 received training there.
There was plenty of opportunity to facilitate the end to Al Qaeda and the Taliban refused. This is why we are there.

Replied to that the opportunity to end this belonged to the United states and they refused .

This trying to shoot people hiding in a crowd war we have going on now will never end and only breeds hatred.
Right , so will torture , incarceration without charge and whole sale bombing of civilian populations , answer just leave .

Replied in italics .

 

[Unforgiven]

Unforgiven

Are the Taliban Afghani?

The movement was headed by Mullah Mohammed Omar. Beneath him were "a mixture of former small-unit military commanders and Madrasah teachers," [8] and then a rank and file most of whom had studied in Islamic religious schools in Pakistan. The overwhelming majority of Taliban movement were Pashtuns from southern Afghanistan and western Pakistan, along with a small number of volunteers from Eurasia to China. {From Wikipedia}
Is there any truth to the rumor that the Taliban actually came from Pakistan?

Is there any truth to the rumor that Pakistan who is an "ally" of the United States is complicit in maintaining a porous border that is advantageous to the Taliban?

I think so. But then we should qualify that with the Pakistan government has a relationship with the US, though there are tribal villages where allegiance is to the Taliban and so helpful to their cause. So no officially there is no apparent truth to the US keeping up a porous border between the two countries. Parts of that border are like the border between BC and Alberta with many ranges and passes through that simple can not be monitored effectively with what is available.

Why aren't Americans prepared to deal with Pakistan and yet more than prepared to identify "terrorism" in Afghanistan and demand the world "accept its responsibility" to join the U.S. in fighting this war on terrorism?

America is dealing with Pakistan as far as I know. They offer huge support to the Pakistan government to suppress terrorism to the point of American troops on the ground in Pakistan. But you would do better to research the question than asking me. But I would suggest that a few places have quietly been put on notice that they should work to get their houses in order.

As I said, the Taliban, acted as host to bin Laden, provided a refuge to Al Qaeda to build and maintain terrorist training camps. Actually trained the very terrorists that attacked America on 9/11. While we have our own problems to deal with in North America and the West, terrorism is a problem that needs to be stopped globally. It's a global problem and while American is doing a bit of thrashing around under poor leadership, it behooves the rest of the world to gather resources and share information in alliance to bring an end to terrorism everywhere. I feel some responsibility to try to keep my country free from terrorists and so the government on my behalf, acts towards that interest. Granted not exactly as I would have it but some effort.

Is there any truth to the rumors that Uncol and American petroleum industries had an interest in Afghanistan that had absolutely nothing to do with gender and discrimination in Afghanistan?

Who is Uncol?
Mention American Petroleum Industries and interest in the same sentence and it's easy to find some corruption. I'm sure that the American Petroleum Industry has absolutely no interest in gender and discrimination anywhere in the world. People are disposable as far as they are concerned and if there is a dollar to be taken, they will do anything, and I mean anything, for that dollar.

Afghanistan has no oil and so is not what you would assume to be a territory of desired acquisition for them but there has been speculation about a pipeline to move oil from the Caspian to the Arabian sea but I think that was changed to go through Azerbaijan and then Turkey. Bypassing Iran and removing the power they hold over egress to Arabian sea shipping. But I may have that wrong.

 

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Minority Observer

The answer to what exactly ? I don't seriously think your advocating genocide of either the Iraqi or the Afghan populations .

As a response to and the waging of war. I think it is better to encompass all
in massive, sudden and horrific kills that brings home the whole fact that war is something that should be avoided at all costs. What we have now is a never ending, constant war without resolution other than providing reason to get revenge for the death of a loved one.

Irrelevant to the argument at hand , this war is unjust so as soon as US troops are back in the United states you can go back to doing whatever it is you do for fun .

Not at all, "this war" which war are you talking about? The Iraq war? The war in Afghanistan? The war in Korea? The war on drugs? We've got all kinds of wars going on. Are there any that are just? It's not lost on me that a nuclear attack with deaths ranging into the millions would be an assault on our own sensibilities. Maybe that would get our population off it's collective butt to stop war. Instead we have this business of killing and profit management being tempered with propaganda and a lulling of the masses into a stupor resulting in apathy for war.

Evil is a relative term the Taliban were backward and advocated a totalitarian system of government but the warlord ruling much of Afghanistan are just as bad .

True enough, but no one said there is a perfect solution. Just one that some people think will screw us up less. And that opposed to no plan at all, wins most of the time. But there are schools for both girls and boys where something other than hatred for anyone who isn't Taliban and especially giving their life to hurt people in the West because God wants you to.
Long way to go but there can be a good life worth living in Afghanistan as long as the people there work for it and cast off the backward idea that they have to allow one war after the next. At some point they are welcome to and expected to stand up for themselves and not allow the wars of NATO and the CCCP and any number of smaller warlords to take place. Everyone else can
with a little help and so can Afghanistan.

Again it seems your advocating genocide it's not a rational position so you must mean something else .

Genocide has nothing to do with it. It's about making war exactly what war is supposed to be. The military should be about dealing out as much death as possible, not being the police man. We're complacent about war now. We've had "peacekeepers" deployed for years on end. The US has been at war or doing the same as us for even longer. War has no meaning anymore and no one cares much if there is a war or not. Live goes on as usual, and that is all wrong.

Replied to that the opportunity to end this belonged to the United states and they refused .

At the moment we have the monkeys running the zoo. And because we still get what we want, no one is too interested in actually getting up and over throwing the government to restore any sense and integrity to it. We'll wait and vote blah blah blah. Mean while this will still go on, people will find a way to justify driving truck loads of explosive made from the material we sell them into road blocks, cafes, diners, buildings and towers full of civilians.

If I said to you, I want to go blow up a building and you knew that if I did, the response would be that you and all that you know and love would be incinerated without question, would you be kicking the stuffing out of me and making damn sure I didn't have the ability to do such a thing to cause that horror to be visited upon you and the one's you love?

I know if the roles were reversed I would swing for you right then and there.

This trying to shoot people hiding in a crowd war we have going on now will never end and only breeds hatred.

Right , so will torture , incarceration without charge and whole sale bombing of civilian populations , answer just leave .

I am all for just leaving. But we are so addicted to the oil, and no one wants to change any of that, that just leaving would result in a halt to oil shipments. This in turn would lead to a massive shortage of the one thing that we have built our whole culture upon. I've asked a few people to try this to show just how dependant we are on oil. I ask them not to use anything that has oil in it's making or shipping. So far everyone has just gotten mad.

If we abruptly stopped using oil, we would be dead in three weeks or so. Well most of us that is. We should be moving to alternatives but there is a huge and powerful group who don't want that to even be considered. Guess what country they run.

 

[Zzarchov]

If it were an act of revenge by you for my putting a blind eye and indifference to the injustices my government enacted upon you in a foreign country, yes.

In the case of the towers being targeted,a symbol of `The` United State`$ world domination, I`d have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just my luck.

So you agree, you should be killed, more so than me, because you believe what is going is wrong but don't do everything you can to stop it. You only do what is comfortable.

Hence, you believe you deserve to die.

 

[JBeee]

So you agree, you should be killed, more so than me, because you believe what is going is wrong but don't do everything you can to stop it. You only do what is comfortable.

Hence, you believe you deserve to die.

If my gov attacked your country for no good reason and slaughtered you(an innocent bystander in the wrong place at the wrong time) and your brethren decided to exact justifiable revenge on my soil (and I, an innocent bystander were killed in the process), we`d be even now wouldn`t we.:smile:

 

[Zzarchov]

If my gov attacked your country for no good reason and slaughtered you(an innocent bystander in the wrong place at the wrong time) and your brethren decided to exact justifiable revenge on my soil (and I, an innocent bystander were killed in the process), we`d be even now wouldn`t we.:smile:

They did. If you forget, this isn't about countries its about cultures. What they view as "Muslim cultures" versus "Western Cultures".

America never bombed Saudi Arabia (where most of the high jackers originated) in fact they PROTECT Saudi Arabia.

So your analogy is off. So as a Canadian and thus "Western" you are a target too, and you deserve to be murdered by Saudi's because American's Bombed Iraqi's who had tried to kill Saudi's.

Hence you believe you need to die for those actions.

 

[JBeee]

They did. If you forget, this isn't about countries its about cultures. What they view as "Muslim cultures" versus "Western Cultures".

America never bombed Saudi Arabia (where most of the high jackers originated) in fact they PROTECT Saudi Arabia.

So your analogy is off. So as a Canadian and thus "Western" you are a target too, and you deserve to be murdered by Saudi's because American's Bombed Iraqi's who had tried to kill Saudi's.

Hence you believe you need to die for those actions.

:?:!!....uummm I thought it more like a country (the US of A) and it`s kiss-ass `allies` bombing the hell out of dem dere rag-heads with impunity because they, justifiably, attacked the US in retaliation for among other things, starving the life out of millions of Iraqi children with sanctions and a slew of other atrocities through out the Middle East over the past half century, with impunity.

Well no more. The world has become a much `smaller` place in the last few years. Suck it up Zzarc.;-)