"Good and Evil"

[jwv]

JWV

Therein ends our conversation - blind devotion for oneself is beautiful to behold - when it is erroneously described as you have done - gives me cause to wonder if blind devotion is actually being 'blind'.

Blind devotion? Not at all, fact. I cannot believe that anyone of European stock would deny that the Christian faith has been the dominant religious group for us collectively. It has been forming our moral and ethical constructs for the past 2,000 years, give or take a thousand.In Canada, until very recently, its influence was so strong it determined even the type of programming our media would present down to if our corner stores would open on
Sunday or not. Why do you think, for example, that up until recently, school cafeterias would serve fish sticks on a Friday?

 

[look3467]

Sanctus, that was very good. And the length of it was just as good.
However, I would like to address the last paragraph where the tree is mentioned .

To eat of the tree of knowledge is to me is unavoidable. This is the part that brings death.

We have no choice in the matter because we are born in the flesh, but we do have a choice of how we manage the good and the evil.

My whole argument about life is that we are all in the same category; dead when we eat of the tree.
When does that happen? At the age of accountability.

Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil takes effect and the conscience is born.

So regardless of if we are religious or not, the conscience is established in us all at the point of accountability.

If that is the case, then any argument against it is futile.

My thoughts

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

I would like to state this belief as my own and as what I have found, discovered and or given to understand by the Holy Spirit: That I exclude no one, believer or nonbeliever, from the graces of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Good and evil can only be defined by the individual conscience at the time of it's choosing. When ever that occurs is the point of death.
For then we must seek to right what the conscience deems wrong and won't let us rest until we do.

That applies to all regardless of beliefs. So happens that belief in God helps to easy our conscience because it gives us a vehicle by which we can work things out and become free again.

From what I understand, the conscience is more in tune with what evil is. As if the conscience were evil; telling, condemning, or ratting on us at every turn.

Take the conscience out of the equation, we'd all be perfect without any self condemnation.

The conscience has no favorites, we all have it, and we can try to explain it away as not from God, but the evidence for it is much greater as being from God then without God.

So the question of Good and Evil has become an ageless argument only to find its solution for the peace of mind, contentment and rest; is to believe that God caused it to be so, so that we would learn to appreciate His love for us as we learn to become obedient in the midst of disobedience.

Therefore the conscience accuses us to God of our evil doings.Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The seed of which I spoke about earlier is the seed of conscience. That we all have it as a testimony against us to God. Where can we hide, that our conscience won't expose us?

Need I believe in God to have a conscience? NO!

God addressed that fact in that He said we were a law unto ourselves, meaning that the seed of conscience is within each one of us regardless of who we are.

Your response?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

Yes, in our society. Christianity has been the major religious thought for Europe and Canada.

Though it maybe, but there needs to be a greater understanding of those who do not subscribe to the norm as equally important in the eyes of God than those in the norm.

An example is the story of the Sheppard and the lost sheep. The norm (99 in the fold) is left alone while the Sheppard seeks the (one sheep gone astray) lost.

This is an important key lesson that the norm (the churched) has not mastered yet. For they say they are for the lost (lost sheep), yet there is a line drawn to divide and condemn. (Innocently of course of any wrong doing)

The opposite it true for the unbeliever, for they have their own walls to divide and condemn the churched.

So, if judgment from God was to be dispensed out, it would first go to the churched. They would have the greater fault.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[Curiosity]

Please please please - don't make this yet another thread paying homage to the Christian (primarily Roman Catholic) Church there are dozens of topics where one can discuss and argue to their heart's content....

This is about Good and Evil - the concept of the two - and what people believe them to be.

Unless we get to the basic man (human), religion is a latecomer to the natal instinct of behavior and perception in humans.... Go back to the early childhood .... religion plays no part except what is dictated by the family and certainly not understood by the infant or toddler.

That is when Good and Evil begin. If one will think about humanity before organized living, morals, ethics, and religious belief were part of society .... what about the original tribes and indigneous humans wandering around the world....

.....what was their concept of Good and Evil???

 

[jwv]

Please please please - don't make this yet another thread paying homage to the Christian (primarily Roman Catholic) Church there are dozens of topics where one can discuss and argue to their heart's content....

This is about Good and Evil - the concept of the two - and what people believe them to be.
?

I think you're being purposely obtuse about the concepts themselves, which obviously are taught from a Christian point of view in western society. It is not about any church, but the overall teachings of Christianity which has influenced and conditioned all our understandings of morality in this society.

 

[look3467]

Please please please - don't make this yet another thread paying homage to the Christian (primarily Roman Catholic) Church there are dozens of topics where one can discuss and argue to their heart's content....

This is about Good and Evil - the concept of the two - and what people believe them to be.

Unless we get to the basic man (human), religion is a latecomer to the natal instinct of behavior and perception in humans.... Go back to the early childhood .... religion plays no part except what is dictated by the family and certainly not understood by the infant or toddler.

That is when Good and Evil begin. If one will think about humanity before organized living, morals, ethics, and religious belief were part of society .... what about the original tribes and indigneous humans wandering around the world....

.....what was their concept of Good and Evil???

Curiosity,

I have not any religious affiliations, but speak solely on my own.

The reason being is that I am open to all beliefs and honor all opinions as worthy of discussion.

My belief is such that I am with my God as loving all of humanity regardless of their belief or behavior.
Belief is justifiable but not behavior.

Love covers both but behavior is dealt with here on earth.

Behavior is dealt with by the conscience collectively of the masses in that we set up our own rules and regulations by which society is governed.

What ever laws society imposes on itself are enforceable by society.

Those that go against it must suffer the consequences.

One of the greatest gifts to mankind is having the ability to be as a god, experience life as a god yet have not the penalty of eternal damnation for being as like a god.

Subject only to; the dictates of our conscience (Godly) and to the worlds hold. (Flesh)

Other than that, we are all the same.

We are as like god, able to rule our own lives as we see fit.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[Curiosity]

What is good and what is evil?
Who decides?
What standard do we use to discern the difference?

Is it a natural trait we all acquire or is it a gift?

If natural, how did we acquire it?

If a gift, how was it given?

What inspires the good in the conscience verses the evil?

Why would good be a better choice?

Take any one of these questions and share your thoughts.

Look3467

Perhaps you have forgotten what you wrote in your original post?

I was addressing conscience - our perception of what good and evil are - because the two are extremely personal and vary from individual to individual and have very little to do with religious belief. It is the core essence of what a human is when born.

I have been accused of being obtuse - which is exactly what you and your friend are ... desiring to turn this into a religious thematic approach instead of basic humanity.

Does food and sleep have religious connotation? No - it is the essence of life. So if the essence of good and evil which exists in all of us - and expresses itself primarily in one or the other or a mild combination of both.

I think neither of you wish to explore the real question but would rather keep it 'godly' which is modern man's answer to anything he believes to be 'deep'.

I have shared my thoughts and am now being told they are insufficient.

 

[Pangloss]

I'm not sure I agree. Would we even have the two concepts without a religious background? Some might argue that the very ideologies of good and evil derive directly from religious thought.

Woah there, big fella. Not so fast.

So the dingo bitch that drives a competing bitch away from her pups doesn't conceive the other bitch as bad? Labrador Retrievers don't think all squirrels are evil (the dog is right BTW - a squirrel is nothing but a rat with a P.R. campaign)?

What about enforced codes of conduct among the lower primates? Jane Goodall might have a thing or two to say about this.

Why cannot evil and good be the abstractions of things that either threaten or promote one's survival or the survival of the species or however widely one wishes to define things?

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

I think you're being purposely obtuse about the concepts themselves, which obviously are taught from a Christian point of view in western society. It is not about any church, but the overall teachings of Christianity which has influenced and conditioned all our understandings of morality in this society.

No. . .not really.

Most of the big ethical thinkers since the Enlightenment were (are) secular - some of them had to hide their secularism (see Voltaire), to be sure, but secular nonetheless (gotta find a better word than that ugly lawyerly construction).

Much of the OT writing on ethics can be backdated to other codes (see Hammurabi), so, except for the strictly spiritual stuff, christian ethics can, in the best light, be seen as an evolution.

I'm digging this - hope you are too.

Pangloss

 

[talloola]

I think you're being purposely obtuse about the concepts themselves, which obviously are taught from a Christian point of view in western society. It is not about any church, but the overall teachings of Christianity which has influenced and conditioned all our understandings of morality in this society.

Please don't pigeon hole the decisions of being morally good or evil, as being owned by christianity, as
I think that is an insult to all of the others who are not christian, and all of 'us' athiests, who have
very high moral values, always have, and don't have any connection to christianity or religion at all.

Being good or evil is a basic human trait, taught in the home, from good parents, whoever they might
be, and many people become good even though they had poor parents, and the opposite can apply as
well.

Please give us all a break, and take out the christian/religious connection from this thread.

 

[Pangloss]

Curiosity:

What kind of nonsense is this:

I have shared my thoughts and am now being told they are insufficient.

If somebody treats you that way, please remember they are short bus riding, microcephalic window lickers.

Pity them and their foolish ways.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

talloola:

Are you off your nut?

Please give us all a break, and take out the christian/religious connection from this thread.

If we were to do that, how much great thinking would be lost to us? I get your meaning and intent, at least I think I do, and I agree with you but I think the above would be going too far.

Pangloss

 

[talloola]

talloola:

Are you off your nut?

Please give us all a break, and take out the christian/religious connection from this thread.

If we were to do that, how much great thinking would be lost to us? I get your meaning and intent, at least I think I do, and I agree with you but I think the above would be going too far.

Pangloss

OK, I'll reword, so, just refer to my first sentence in my post, that should soften it a little.
Off my nut?, lol, haven't heard that one for awhile.
But I would add, I didn't mean take out the religious and the christians from this thread,
just their insistance that high moral behavior belongs to them.

 

[Curiosity]

Curiosity:

What kind of nonsense is this:

I have shared my thoughts and am now being told they are insufficient.

If somebody treats you that way, please remember they are short bus riding, microcephalic window lickers.

Pity them and their foolish ways.

Pangloss

Thank You Pangloss

That was exquisite! hahaha.... I can hardly wait to try it verbally on some unsuspecting sod...

Curio

 

[Curiosity]

Talloola

There's no hope for us missy.....;-)

 

[look3467]

Look3467

Perhaps you have forgotten what you wrote in your original post?

I was addressing conscience - our perception of what good and evil are - because the two are extremely personal and vary from individual to individual and have very little to do with religious belief. It is the core essence of what a human is when born.

I have been accused of being obtuse - which is exactly what you and your friend are ... desiring to turn this into a religious thematic approach instead of basic humanity.

Does food and sleep have religious connotation? No - it is the essence of life. So if the essence of good and evil which exists in all of us - and expresses itself primarily in one or the other or a mild combination of both.

I think neither of you wish to explore the real question but would rather keep it 'godly' which is modern man's answer to anything he believes to be 'deep'.

I have shared my thoughts and am now being told they are insufficient.

I have tried to explain my views from a religious standpoint to include all non-religious beliefs.
I am not concerned with any religious views on the subject but am concerned with the nonreligious ones.
The hope it that my understanding of both may unite us all under one common thread, and that being in agreement that the conscience of good and evil is common to all mankind regardless of belief.

If I can establish that as a foundation on which we can all stand on, than there is hope of brotherhood amongst us motivated by love verses religious dogma of various religious beliefs.
So don’t feel that I will condemn any of you for believing different than I.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

I think you're being purposely obtuse about the concepts themselves, which obviously are taught from a Christian point of view in western society. It is not about any church, but the overall teachings of Christianity which has influenced and conditioned all our understandings of morality in this society.

Most of these people will not understand your point. Their prejudice against Christianity will, as you must see, cause them to think your are talking dogma when in fact you are not. They lack the understanding of what you are trying to suggest, namely, that it is this philosophy which has conditioned the Western views on this topic.

Pangloss, frankly, is probably the only one who will "get it" from amongst those posting here on this thread.

 

[sanctus]

No. . .not really.

Most of the big ethical thinkers since the Enlightenment were (are) secular - some of them had to hide their secularism (see Voltaire), to be sure, but secular nonetheless (gotta find a better word than that ugly lawyerly construction).

True, but they framed their secular conceptions in a predominantly Christian environment, as either supporting of, or detracting from.

It would be interesting to see if the concepts of "good" and "evil" from the perspective of other races with a different philosophical mindset would match those of a European point of view.

For example, would a philosopher working within a Hindu based society arrive at the same defintions as we might here?

 

[Curiosity]

Sanctus

On your horse again are you? Now you come in to 'mark our papers'....?

I didn't know we were performing for your approval.

Locked into your repressed thoughts no doubt you fear to venture into opinion other than what is safe for you.

Here's an eye opener: Did you ever consider your strict demands on others regarding their belief in Christianity along with your 'brother' on this topic could amount to what we recognize as 'prejudice'???