17-year-old girl stoned to death for loving boy of wrong religion

RomSpaceKnight

Council Member
Oct 30, 2006
1,384
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Our hunter/gatherer past allowed the male of the species to evolve into a larger and stronger human. Maybe in 30,000 years of car driving and desk jobs men will slightly atrophy and allow women to catch up in the physical strength department.

Hang in their ladies only 30,000 years to go.
 

Josephine

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2007
213
7
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I just tried looking up to see what has happened to the boy this girl was with, and I just saw footage of her attack. If you can stomach it...watch the clip, but it's very difficult to watch.

http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/04/30/stoned-to-death-for-falling-in/

If you watch it...tell me that her lying her there half naked with her pants stripped off in front of dozens of men is not to disgrace her as a woman. Taking pictures of her with their goddamn cell phones!!!

****ing Sick:angryfire:
 

Libra Girl

Electoral Member
Feb 27, 2006
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Taking pictures of her with their goddamn cell phones!!!

****ing Sick:angryfire:

Beggars belief. Absolutely sickening that they are so blase about witnessing, if not participating in such an appalling event that they can actually whip out their cell phones to recall the terrible scene.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Beggars belief. Absolutely sickening that they are so blase about witnessing, if not participating in such an appalling event that they can actually whip out their cell phones to recall the terrible scene.


It's good in a way. Proof. Solid imagery to evoke people's fury. How many times do you think stuff like this happens, where the person simply disappears? No proof, no outrage, they're simply gone.
 

Libra Girl

Electoral Member
Feb 27, 2006
723
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It's good in a way. Proof. Solid imagery to evoke people's fury. How many times do you think stuff like this happens, where the person simply disappears? No proof, no outrage, they're simply gone.

See, the thing is that I just cannot fathom a mind that could calmly watch, or paticipate in such actions. To be able to watch, or do that to another, whether it be a human or animal would send me straight to the funny farm with the rubber wallpaper. I simply would not survive, mentally and emotionally, nor sleep at night, had I been there. What is it that can allow some humans to survive and prosper in a depraved psyche? beats the heck outta me.
 

jwv

Nominee Member
May 3, 2007
54
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Ontario
I think that men have the power and the control because they were able to take it. They have the physical ability to literally take whatever they want. The sheer strength they have over women, means they have control. Women have had to fight for control in other ways. I think women in many countries have made amazing strides towards equality, but women are still a long long way off from achieving it.
I'm sure it is more than that. In other words, society was conditioned to treat women as second class for thousands of years. It is only recently this has slowly changed, and even so that is only in Western nations.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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See, the thing is that I just cannot fathom a mind that could calmly watch, or paticipate in such actions. To be able to watch, or do that to another, whether it be a human or animal would send me straight to the funny farm with the rubber wallpaper. I simply would not survive, mentally and emotionally, nor sleep at night, had I been there. What is it that can allow some humans to survive and prosper in a depraved psyche? beats the heck outta me.

Well, in that culture, in that moment, the choices end up being those of either watching, or walking (no, I find no justification in participating). Without witnesses, there end up being no advocates. I'm not trying to excuse all those bystanders. But, without someone watching, and letting the world know what sorts of injustices are occurring, her death could go ignored. Someone could seem to be calmly watching. It doesn't mean they're not screaming inside. People can only do what they can, when they can.

It's much like men who look at child pornography. It's easy to say 'any human who could look at child porn is sick'... but there are those who hunt down these pornographers to bring them to justice. Justice doesn't happen without someone first seeing the injustices.

It's sickening to think of having to be that witness. It's bizarre to think of all our minds can see, and still function. But, I know from experience, our minds are much more resilient than we might think.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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You wanna keep the politics of separation and segregation going?

Then say that the death of one type of person is somehow different from the death of another - say that the subjugation of one type of person is worse somehow than the subjugation of another.

Say that one type of person deserves protection more than another.

Say that one type of person is more innocent or noble or harmless than another.

Say that one type of person is somehow worse than another.

The above are all anti humanist and anti feminist statements.

These sentiments abound in this thread.

Pangloss
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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You wanna keep the politics of separation and segregation going?

Then say that the death of one type of person is somehow different from the death of another - say that the subjugation of one type of person is worse somehow than the subjugation of another.

Say that one type of person deserves protection more than another.

Say that one type of person is more innocent or noble or harmless than another.

Say that one type of person is somehow worse than another.

The above are all anti humanist and anti feminist statements.

These sentiments abound in this thread.

Pangloss

Wisely put.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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I'm acrimonious almost to the point of speechlessness, so:

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference." - Elie Wiesel (Oct. 1986)

Suffice it to say that were I there I'd probably rip a few arms off. I think that put an end to my evening here.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Suffice it to say that were I there I'd probably rip a few arms off. I think that put an end to my evening here.

I think I speak for most people of Western culture when I say that your reaction is a great testament to our upbringings.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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You wanna keep the politics of separation and segregation going?

Then say that the death of one type of person is somehow different from the death of another - say that the subjugation of one type of person is worse somehow than the subjugation of another.

Say that one type of person deserves protection more than another.

Say that one type of person is more innocent or noble or harmless than another.

Say that one type of person is somehow worse than another.

The above are all anti humanist and anti feminist statements.

These sentiments abound in this thread.

Pangloss

I don't think you get rid of the politics of segregation by ignoring reality. The reality is gender plays a role in violence.
 

TomG

Electoral Member
Oct 27, 2006
135
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It was described as an honor killing and as such was institutional violence, a capital execution rather than murder. I abhor intuitional violence perhaps more than aberrant individual violence, because institutional violence inevitably abstracts its victims and its crimes into meaningless and intellectualized things. It inevitably is accompanied by a philosophy of apology accomplished means of some ideology. An ideology; a simplifying gauze of thought that softens and obscures the moral sight. It is the apology that allows an act, or even a thought, to be viewed as so threatening to a society’s order that an individual’s life, or the lives of a class, can be ended in a ritual. We arm our terminal rituals with gauzy ideologies, and we set those judged on the path that leads to the executioner’s slaughter. It is always for the good of society, and few of us are ever directly involved.

Yes, I am outraged by the story, but I also know that my outrage is in my own terms, and I have no terms other than my own. Unless filled with some substance, my outrage wanes empty and self-indulgent. The budding rage is doomed to end in the whine of ‘ain’t it awful.’ Outrage thirsts for involvement and experience to be anything other than armchair morality. To judge, I must at least know what was the apology for her execution. The victim; her name was Du'a Khalil Aswad.

I should read Albert Camus, ‘Reflections on the Guillotine’ again. Camus’s point is that there can be no reliable moral judgment without personal involvement and that it is responsible for all persons to seek involvement. I just started the second volume of Solzhenitsyn, ‘The Gulag Archipelago’ (three decades late) and read Wiesel, also late.

The Soviets too had their apologies, as do we, and millions trod their paths that lead to the executioners and they are guided only by the apologies that we allow to define our moral judgments. The apologies are those ideologies that we allow obscure our moral vision; like cataracts on old eyes that have seen too much sun.

The apologies are those that allow us to judge what we have no involvement in. Nevertheless, I need these things like I need the name of the Kurdish woman to take my moral judgments out of the armchair and my outrage away from the news. Perhaps joining Amnesty would make a beginning on a different path. I need to act on my outrage, because armchair morality ends with little effect. The victims became just another consumer product; a Kurdish woman’s name to trigger my empty outrage, to self-elevate myself in my own esteem. For many, the apology just becomes company in the process of becoming a self-consumer of one’s own woes. My outrage becomes just another vote for a career politician and witnesses to nothing but the commercials that parade amidst the nightly news. I need to act in some way because institutionalized violence affects us all.

I am affected because executioners always shed blood. Borrowing a bit from Othello: I admit to the vices of my blood, the blood that is shed, the blood that falls and fertilizes the ground that nurtures the tree that bears the fruit that contain the seeds of trees to be; the fruit that never falls far from the tree. The tree is one that grows near where I live. Executions always sow the vices of the blood where ever it is that they occur. It’s good for a person to know their own vices so they might know what it is that their rituals sow. An execution near where I live is an execution of part of me, and I must either recognize and own it or resist it. I must know that it is me that nurtures the fruit to be that falls near where I live. To survive, I must honestly seek some involvement with the wider world in order to make most things fall near where I live. I must not allow victims to become commercial objects to be purchased and consumed for my own gratification. I must take care of where I live.
 
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Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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I don't think you get rid of the politics of segregation by ignoring reality. The reality is gender plays a role in violence.

Tracy:

What I've written is the opposite of ignoring reality: the consequences of separating people into deserving/good/benign and undeserving/bad/malignant are truly horrific, as has been demonstrated throughout the ages and around the world.

Of course gender/race/economics/nationalism/education and any other adjective you can think of plays a role in violence: that is the point I am making.

The moment you say that one gender/race/nationality/religion/whatever is somehow worse than another, you justify all kinds of dehumanizing behaviours towards that group or class - including rape, murder, forced exile and slavery. Usually, the demonized side will eventually reciprocate.

This thread is making exactly those mistakes.

Pangloss
 

Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
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The moment you say that one gender/race/nationality/religion/whatever is somehow worse than another, you justify all kinds of dehumanizing behaviours towards that group or class - including rape, murder, forced exile and slavery. Usually, the demonized side will eventually reciprocate.

Pangloss
Can we say one gender/race/nationality/religion/whatever is better than another?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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well, if group A is better than group B, you are automatically saying group B is worse than group A.

Its the same thing.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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Can we say one gender/race/nationality/religion/whatever is better than another?

You are right Walter (if I am reading you correctly) - we cannot.

Actually, my terms are a little sloppy - some groups are better or worse at some things than others. For example, Jews and Ismailis (I bet I spelled that wrong) put a huge cultural premium on education, so I wouldn't be surprised to find that their groups are better educated than the general population.

A race of tall people would be better at reaching things on the highest shelf than a race of short people, who would, of course, be better at getting things out of the bottom drawer.

What I meant to say, the word I should have used, was "deserving." As in deserving of rights, respect, humane treatment, freedom from abuse, etcetera.

Sorry 'bout that.

Pangloss
 

Josephine

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2007
213
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I think most of us in this thread have made it clear that one sex is not BETTER than the other. I've never said that women are more noble tha men or deserve better. They deserve nothing less than the same rights and protection than men.

Do women maybe need more protection than men...yes...women are physically weaker than men.

I have not seen any article on what has happened to the young man she was with. But he was not dragged out into the street, stripped and beaten and stoned to death.

I say again...I have nothing against men. I love men! I'm not saying that women are better or more important, but this violence is based on gender.

Death is death and murder is muder. It is not good. I'm not saying that the death of a woman is worse than the death of a man...what I'm saying that we need to recognize when someone is murdered BECAUSE they are a woman. It's a hate crime!

If a black man and a white woman were dating...and her white relatives killed the black man...that would be a race issue...a hate crime.
 

Libra Girl

Electoral Member
Feb 27, 2006
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I think that the thing is, that the op was intended for the purposes of getting the news out about this poor young girl. I, for one didn't read it under the assumption that it was meant to incite a pi**ing contest between the genders. However, it would seem that there are those, found in any forum, that just want to put their own two cents into the equation, regardless of the facts in an op. THIS op wasn't about who gets worse treated in society... For pity's sake, if someone wants make a thread about male atrocities then start a darned thread about it. No-one is saying that males aren't treated as bad as women are, just that this thread is about THIS PARTICULAR GIRL! Anything else is off topic, and designed to disrupt genuine posts on the op.
 
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