Atheism and the VT Massacre

[karrie]

Not if they thought deeply about it. Frankly I find both the strong atheist and the agnostic position to be logically indefensible.

The whole idea of having degree of thought surrounding a subject confuses me. I'd always thought thought was thought. If I think it, it's thought. The idea that there is this whole realm of people out there who can think about something by not thinking about it is confusing!

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Okay, I get what you're saying... for the most part. Except to generalize that strong belief is where the obnoxious lie. I've seen plenty of people, on both sides of the belief spectrum if you will, who are able to concisely and respectfully discuss their positions, without having to forfeit strength of conviction in those views.

So have I. You lost me on that one; I think you might be converting my proposition to its converse. Not everybody with strong beliefs is obnoxious about them, and I didn't suggest otherwise as far as I can tell.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The whole idea of having degree of thought surrounding a subject confuses me. I'd always thought thought was thought. If I think it, it's thought. The idea that there is this whole realm of people out there who can think about something by not thinking about it is confusing!

You've lost me again. Thought and belief aren't the same thing, there are correct and incorrect ways to think, and there are defensible and indefensible beliefs. Consider conspiracy theorists, for instance...

 

[karrie]

So have I. You lost me on that one; I think you might be converting my proposition to its converse. Not everybody with strong beliefs is obnoxious about them, and I didn't suggest otherwise as far as I can tell.

The way you said it was that the strong atheist belief is where you'll find the 'most obnoxious atheists'. I'm just saying that I don't directly equate the two...strong belief and obnoxiousness. A higher concentration perhaps, but, I've met obnoxious people all along the spectrum... weak agnostic, weak faithful, weak atheists.

It wasn't a criticism of the way you put it, just a clarification of my view on it.

 

[karrie]

You've lost me again. Thought and belief aren't the same thing, there are correct and incorrect ways to think, and there are defensible and indefensible beliefs. Consider conspiracy theorists, for instance...

Belief. As a pure term, it merely means an opinion or conviction. Being an indefensible or defensible belief does not make the belief disappear. It's still there, even if it is erroneous.

 

[tamarin]

There is too much beauty in life, too much wonder, to take atheism seriously. Certainly, there are hurts and enormous heartaches too but on any given spring morning there is so much of the breathless about that to see nothing in it begs... disbelief.

 

[talloola]

Except the existance or not of God is someone elses agenda, not mine. I prefer to give it not much thought at all. The same with alien spacecraft or ghost stories. I chose not to believe made up stuff. I don't dwell on disproving anything that has never been proven to exist. I guess someone could call me aaliencropcircleist if that is important to them but I'm not about to waste a lot of energy getting my status card.

Yeah, I like that approach, it's someone else's agenda, not mine, and to group it in with the
alien spacecraft and ghost stories is 'perfect', as that is where it belongs. aaliencropcircleist, I'll have to write that down, as i'm sure it's not in a dictionary.
Your right, it's a waste of time to try to disprove something that has never been proven.

 

[talloola]

There is too much beauty in life, too much wonder, to take atheism seriously. Certainly, there are hurts and enormous heartaches too but on any given spring morning there is so much of the breathless about that to see nothing in it begs... disbelief.

Noone on earth sees the beauty of this earth and life 'more' than I do, and I haven't got the foggiest, how
that has any link whatsoever to a god. It's our earth, it is what I cherish
and believe in, it is real, it is our home, we were created here, belong here.
The earth is where my spiritual feelings come alive, the connection to it is very strong,
but that connection has nothing to do with a god of any kind, I don't think of such things.

 

[tamarin]

"The earth is where my spiritual feelings come alive..."

And in that field of connection lie so many things. Do what you will. You're already home.

 

[talloola]

"The earth is where my spiritual feelings come alive..."

And in that field of connection lie so many things. Do what you will. You're already home.

I assume you are telling me that I do 'believe' in a god, and don't know it. I have my two
feet planted firmly on my earth, and as I have said before on this board, the earth was
formed from the universe, (in a scientifically explained way), and from that, organisms
began to grow, and from that we grew. That is what I believe, and that is why the earth
feels like my parent, and it is natural to be connected in a very spiritual way to it.

 

[tamarin]

Then you're home. And doesn't it feel wonderful to be comfortable with whatever leanings you have, whatever their origin...

 

[talloola]

Then you're home. And doesn't it feel wonderful to be comfortable with whatever leanings you have, whatever their origin...

Yes it does, and I wish the same for you.

 

[tamarin]

Life can be sweet. Take care of yourself. Don't lose your sense of connection.

 

[L Gilbert]

Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking of, getting at. To me, that's what an absence of belief would describe. No true opinion either way.

Opinion is not belief. I have an opinion about leprachauns, but I don't have a belief one way or the other about them. I know the only place they exist is in people's minds. Same as demons and gods.
:idea:
Well, there ya go. A middle ground. I believe that gods and leprachauns are only real in people's imaginations.

 

[L Gilbert]

Seems to be some confusion here. There is both a so-called 'strong atheist' and a 'weak atheist' position, and they're quite distinct. The strong atheist position is that there is no god, which is indeed a belief, and that's where you'll find the most obnoxious atheists. The weak atheist position is that there's insufficient evidence to justify belief, so belief is withheld. That's not the same as the agnostic position, which is that the issue is not decidable in principle. The weak atheist position would hold that it is, but the evidence has not been produced. Most atheists I know take the weak atheist position, the absence of belief. That's Richard Dawkins' position; the relevant chapter of his book The God Delusion is titled "Why there almost certainly is no god," not "Why there certainly is no god."

I forgot about the "weak-" and "strong-" atheism. I think I'm somewhere in between. I'm positive there's no gods because there are some extremely strong, rational factors as to why I'm positive. They do not fit into any known patterns in the universe, the story of creation is impossible, there is no valid evidence in favor of them, etc. I also am positive that gods exist because we are discussing them. The result: they exist but only in people's imaginations.

 

[L Gilbert]

Except the existance or not of God is someone elses agenda, not mine. I prefer to give it not much thought at all. The same with alien spacecraft or ghost stories. I chose not to believe made up stuff. I don't dwell on disproving anything that has never been proven to exist. I guess someone could call me aaliencropcircleist if that is important to them but I'm not about to waste a lot of energy getting my status card.

Right. The only times I think about deities and whatnot is when someone mentions them which is unavoidable but extremely rare and everyone that mentions it knows I'm atheist; also, when I'm in here, but it's fun in here.

 

[L Gilbert]

Belief. As a pure term, it merely means an opinion or conviction. Being an indefensible or defensible belief does not make the belief disappear. It's still there, even if it is erroneous.

Actually, it is any cognitive content thought of as being true. Except when discussing things religious, there is no cognitive content in that definition for me. The definition is not right, hence, the descriptive (belief) is not right. The descriptive is absent like the factor in the description. It's nonsensical and therfore not eligible for consideration.

 

[karrie]

Opinion is not belief. I have an opinion about leprachauns, but I don't have a belief one way or the other about them. I know the only place they exist is in people's minds. Same as demons and gods.
:idea:
Well, there ya go. A middle ground. I believe that gods and leprachauns are only real in people's imaginations.

I think you're trying to put a pretty rigid definition on the term 'belief' and use it interchangably with 'faith'. This is where you all are losing me, since every dictionary I've been able to dig up on-line and off my own shelves, has included belief being synonymous with opinion.

 

[karrie]

Actually, it is any cognitive content thought of as being true. Except when discussing things religious, there is no cognitive content in that definition for me. The definition is not right, hence, the descriptive (belief) is not right. The descriptive is absent like the factor in the description. It's nonsensical and therfore not eligible for consideration.

Why would there be no cognitive content in your assertion that god doesn't exist? You've lost me there.

Okay... by this point in the conversation, I need to stress to you. I am really truly not trying to be a prick, or talk you in circles just for fun. I'm not yanking your chain in asking these questions, or trying to be intentionally obtuse of your point. Heck, I'm not even arguing. I truly want to understand.

 

[L Gilbert]

I know that. In spite of my troubles conveying exactly what mean, I'm still trying. If I thought you were rattling my chain, I'd quit. I'm actually liking this because it is a challenge.

Superstitions are gibberish; nonsense. The cognitive content is imaginary. Therefore it cannot be true.
Uerhffgts is gibberish; nonsense. It popped outta my mind into a post; it is imaginary and therefore cannot be true.
So what's the difference between a leprachaun and the Christian god (besides spelling, character, etc)? Why is it that the leprachaun is imaginary and this god isn't? What's the difference between the cat in the hat and this god? Both are written about. Yet one is imaginary and the other real? A lot more people believe in one and not the other? Why? I can't accept a significant difference between these superstitions.