Love Of Our Neighbour
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yall leave Andy alone 
He maybe long winded but at least he's tryin. If you dont understand he has no problem trying to explain.
Mikey I want you to try to say three nice things in a row
He maybe long winded but at least he's tryin. If you dont understand he has no problem trying to explain. Mikey I want you to try to say three nice things in a row
Hi Tam:
That explains your knowledge. :thumbup:
The Church and the Blessed Virgin go to no ends to enstill in people there is a hell and dis so to set us on the right path. Mary has opened hell to the children of Fatima, and they reported back what they saw and Mary gave them a run down as to what they were looking at. The children saw people, and Mary nowhere said there were nations there. If there were she would have mentioned it as a "heads up" to collectives as well.
Secondly, all the warnings in NT and OT of governments/nations/leaders make no mention that a collective damnation exists. It focuses on individual conduct as a main theme. If they were also going there, such a horrible possibility would have certainly been said. If one damnation were a deterhent, the torment of millions would surely put the point solidly into everybody.
So of course I can't say for sure. But judging on the tutorial methods the Church and scripture uses to encourage righteous conduct, none using these methodologies to instill conduct of collectives has been seen.
Your right. But what an opportunity missed that could make a point. So no, I think the authors would have lept at the opportunity to put that in writing also. They citizens were judged individually in the afterlife according to this or that act/thought they did or failed to do. Of course coming out of these places didn't bode well for them I guess, but all the same I would guess they got various punishments and stays in purgatory. That doesn't make it just. While God punishes our forms, it would be fair to apply max punishment to that form.
He IS all knowing, and no one disputes his power.
Let go? I think if I understand you correctly you mean resignation to fate.
If I go to hell unjustly without a whimper I have accomplished nothing. My life becomes a "Soylent Green" assembly line ride to my destiny enjoying every minute of it. I am here, I can't do anything about that. It became a matter to me when some Being told me He would judge me and I could suffer for eternity. Immediately instinctual self preservation takes hold and that's all that counts from now on. (BTW: God finds all this very interesting.) The seriousness worsened when I discovered a possibility of a double standard in his judgements.
Finding myself in heaven perhaps, I ask myself can I enjoy myself knowing my Host takes a blind eye to the sins of nations? Very difficult to realize. He would know my uncertainty even there, also I would be a security risk in heaven knowing what I know. I'd either need to keep quiet, or come out with the truth. If double standards are the norm, would the truth be a threat to someone in heaven.?
Jeesh, I do write a lot!!!!! OK,Ok that's enuff.:angel1:
AndyF
That explains your knowledge. :thumbup:
The Church and the Blessed Virgin go to no ends to enstill in people there is a hell and dis so to set us on the right path. Mary has opened hell to the children of Fatima, and they reported back what they saw and Mary gave them a run down as to what they were looking at. The children saw people, and Mary nowhere said there were nations there. If there were she would have mentioned it as a "heads up" to collectives as well.
Secondly, all the warnings in NT and OT of governments/nations/leaders make no mention that a collective damnation exists. It focuses on individual conduct as a main theme. If they were also going there, such a horrible possibility would have certainly been said. If one damnation were a deterhent, the torment of millions would surely put the point solidly into everybody.
So of course I can't say for sure. But judging on the tutorial methods the Church and scripture uses to encourage righteous conduct, none using these methodologies to instill conduct of collectives has been seen.
Your right. But what an opportunity missed that could make a point. So no, I think the authors would have lept at the opportunity to put that in writing also. They citizens were judged individually in the afterlife according to this or that act/thought they did or failed to do. Of course coming out of these places didn't bode well for them I guess, but all the same I would guess they got various punishments and stays in purgatory. That doesn't make it just. While God punishes our forms, it would be fair to apply max punishment to that form.
He IS all knowing, and no one disputes his power.
Let go? I think if I understand you correctly you mean resignation to fate.
If I go to hell unjustly without a whimper I have accomplished nothing. My life becomes a "Soylent Green" assembly line ride to my destiny enjoying every minute of it. I am here, I can't do anything about that. It became a matter to me when some Being told me He would judge me and I could suffer for eternity. Immediately instinctual self preservation takes hold and that's all that counts from now on. (BTW: God finds all this very interesting.) The seriousness worsened when I discovered a possibility of a double standard in his judgements.
Finding myself in heaven perhaps, I ask myself can I enjoy myself knowing my Host takes a blind eye to the sins of nations? Very difficult to realize. He would know my uncertainty even there, also I would be a security risk in heaven knowing what I know. I'd either need to keep quiet, or come out with the truth. If double standards are the norm, would the truth be a threat to someone in heaven.?
Jeesh, I do write a lot!!!!! OK,Ok that's enuff.:angel1:
AndyF
LOL you think to much My Love
Let me give you my take on it.....May I?In my belief system the collective is very important. It is made up of individual thoughts that create realit as it (the collective) sees it. So if everyone is focused on bad stuff, bad stuff happens. When I say "let go" its not fate its trust. If the collective let go then we'd have utopia on earth
Im sure Mikey and Padre can help you through all this in your belief. Im just a simple Pagan that thinks her God/dess would never punish her for being the inquisitive child I was created to be
Dude, it's the internet, not an essay course
I'd rather focus on making what I say interesting, not necessarily agreeable, but interesting, than focusing on it's structure. But yes, such eschatological discussions tend to be long because they are detailed and may include many elements of a pschological and mystical nature.
I have found one liners difficult in such discussions, but taken cumulatively, one liners if you include the forum borders and all the parphanalia enclosing it, could have you scrolling further than my one pager.:love2:
AndyF
Tam:
It is important to me too. Individual thought yes. Yes bad stuff happens.
You said bad, but I assume that we are both talking about morally wrong, or more seriously a sin.
I'll stop you here for just a second. If you are about to be punished for the same sin the collective made, would you expect it just for the collective to receive the same punishment for the same sin all factors remaining equal?
Before you answer remember: 1/ The people entered a contract in conscience to form the collective.
2/The people have agreed that whatever comes by their decisions they will abide by the outcome.
3/By this contract they form an alliance and a singular unit.
Trust in what? If trust is based on the word of God, which by this oath automatically binds them to God's laws, then they can "trust" they will one day be accountable for the moral wrong they have done.
If trust means they can never be held accountable, that may be wishful thinking. I may not be understanding you correctly so I'll wait for your response.
Correct. And said in dangerous circumstances where the secular policeman are watching every word said. But rest assured questions are not categorically secular or lay, they are simply questions. I have learned that questions can be provocative to some people, you will always get that. So be inquisitive and question away. :love2:
Gettin shorter, hey. You noticed.? (oops better shut up, getting longer.)
AndyF
It is important to me too. Individual thought yes. Yes bad stuff happens.
You said bad, but I assume that we are both talking about morally wrong, or more seriously a sin.
I'll stop you here for just a second. If you are about to be punished for the same sin the collective made, would you expect it just for the collective to receive the same punishment for the same sin all factors remaining equal?
Before you answer remember: 1/ The people entered a contract in conscience to form the collective.
2/The people have agreed that whatever comes by their decisions they will abide by the outcome.
3/By this contract they form an alliance and a singular unit.
Trust in what? If trust is based on the word of God, which by this oath automatically binds them to God's laws, then they can "trust" they will one day be accountable for the moral wrong they have done.
If trust means they can never be held accountable, that may be wishful thinking. I may not be understanding you correctly so I'll wait for your response.
Correct. And said in dangerous circumstances where the secular policeman are watching every word said. But rest assured questions are not categorically secular or lay, they are simply questions. I have learned that questions can be provocative to some people, you will always get that. So be inquisitive and question away. :love2:
Gettin shorter, hey. You noticed.? (oops better shut up, getting longer.)
AndyF
Tam:
It is important to me too. Individual thought yes. Yes bad stuff happens.
You said bad, but I assume that we are both talking about morally wrong, or more seriously a sin.
I'll stop you here for just a second. If you are about to be punished for the same sin the collective made, would you expect it just for the collective to receive the same punishment for the same sin all factors remaining equal?
Before you answer remember: 1/ The people entered a contract in conscience to form the collective.
2/The people have agreed that whatever comes by their decisions they will abide by the outcome.
3/By this contract they form an alliance and a singular unit.
Trust in what? If trust is based on the word of God, which by this oath automatically binds them to God's laws, then they can "trust" they will one day be accountable for the moral wrong they have done.
If trust means they can never be held accountable, that may be wishful thinking. I may not be understanding you correctly so I'll wait for your response.
Correct. And said in dangerous circumstances where the secular policeman are watching every word said. But rest assured questions are not categorically secular or lay, they are simply questions. I have learned that questions can be provocative to some people, you will always get that. So be inquisitive and question away. :love2:
Gettin shorter, hey. You noticed.? (oops better shut up, getting longer.)
AndyF
Your just to cute.
I said bad like in wars and natral disasters. I think Im a simple Pagan because this is way to much thinking Doll. In my little world there is no sin, there is only the hell we create for ourselves and there is only one law........Do no harm. I follow that rede and I am greatly rewarded with Beautiful people that surround me and all my needs are taken care of. We attract to us what we put out there. If im grumpy I attract grumpy people if Im inquisitive
I attract more questions The more questions the more answers the more questions lol Thats our path......seekers Its a beautiful life isnt it? I mean really. Sunrises, sunsets, waterfalls and stars............*sigh* pure bliss 
I think you did good....that wasn't very neighbourly OR christian of monsureee levek.
Each of us are responsible for our own individual actions. We determine our own judgement from God, in other words. We cannot rely on blaming others for what is our own fault. Nor can we use the "he made me do it" line of defence.
Your just to cute.
I said bad like in wars and natral disasters. I think Im a simple Pagan because this is way to much thinking Doll. In my little world there is no sin, there is only the hell we create for ourselves and there is only one law........Do no harm. I follow that rede and I am greatly rewarded with Beautiful people that surround me and all my needs are taken care of. We attract to us what we put out there. If im grumpy I attract grumpy people if Im inquisitive
There is a great deal of wisdom to this thinking, and it is clearly true. We reap what we sow, as the Bible indicates. So too do we attract the type of people based on our own expectations and way of thinking.
The Levites and Sodomites would have liked to correct God in that respect. They would have liked to tell God to judge each individual seperately in context of the combined offense, but that is not what he did. He treated them as a group and that was just. It revealed the word also in that we are to remain unblemished for the sake of our neighbours as well. This showed man that "us" and "individual" obtain their definition by the form in which they carried out their free choice. It remains to be explained why he didn't carry the justice on to completion, and that is the puzzle.
... and to determine who qualifies for that judgement, we turn to God's method of defining "he","we","us", and "individual", and we see that collectives are also candidates.
Absolutely. The collective born in binding contract by individuals to coalesce into a unit of recognized form sanctioned by God, and bound to His Devine principles, cannot blame it's individual components through convenient dispersion. It ends and absorbs the consequences in the same form it willingly adopted to act out, and through scripture God revealed this rule to all entities.
AndyF
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Your just to cute.
I said bad like in wars and natral disasters. I think Im a simple Pagan because this is way to much thinking Doll. In my little world there is no sin, there is only the hell we create for ourselves and there is only one law........Do no harm. I follow that rede and I am greatly rewarded with Beautiful people that surround me and all my needs are taken care of. We attract to us what we put out there. If im grumpy I attract grumpy people if Im inquisitive
Tam:
Interesting talk all the same.
But I think it's fair to say their have been some veiled insinuations made, and not by yourself as you are definitely at peace and comfortable in yourself and that I admire. For our talk you cleared the table for an amiable discussion.
Questions don't hurt anything. Like I said some people feel threatened by questions. There are various reasons for this. Perhaps people who should know the answers would have to explain their shortcoming if they were to be found wrong, so they would prefer to be ambiguous from a distance. From this convenient purch they are safe from scrutiny lest they are found to be lacking in the knowledge they should have. They are recognized by their safe general sentences that can be applied to a wide range of scenerios.
They don't lead off from a point of reference in the post they are answering, or point out specifically where the person is wrong. Stepping into the forum would cause them to reveal they have not kept up with study in the vocation they have chosen.
This stance leaves them liberties to criticise rather than to help. In reality they would prefer these people simply "go away". You know Tam, a lot of my questions have their source from the questions of grade school children. As an adult I will naturally make their simple questions more detailed and specific, but it doesn't detract from the essence and substance and remove their importance in any way. The blame for their pardoxical nature is placed on the shoulders of those who advance them. Usually this blame is measured out depending on the person's maturity, and that has no relevance whatsoever in Christianity. If I were to answer these children with the same degrading answers I have been given, it would send them to tears and shock.
I have heard the word wisdom used often here. But I think one of the wisest things I have heard is a Jesuit friend of mine who said quite simply in answer to a question that he didn't know, and that we will find out later. He made no attempt to derate you or felt uncomfortable with questions he didn't have an answer for.
Anyway that's M2C.
AndyF
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I'm somewhat confused. In street terms, you seem to be talking out of "both sides of your ass".??
I was certain you had stated collective guilt was not possible. Now you seem to be saying the opposite???
However, you cannot extrapolate one Scriptural example of a specific event and hold it over as the general rule. The fact is quite clear that we are judged individually by God for our individual actions.
In my faith we have several sayings that relate. "ALL things In perfect timing", When in need the teacher will always appear. I find it all true. And sometime WE are the teacher to the teacher, isnt THAT amazing. We are ALL priestess' and priests at some point. Life is perfect as long as we see it that way
Good Morning Padre
The second I stopped thinking of you as the church and saw you as a man (a cute one at that) You became human. You became reachable. You became a mirror of me. Make sense?sanctus:
If your still up to dialogue, please quote the specific reference I made so that I can clarify. I posted many times on the same theme.
I go now to join the old biddies in your waste basket while I wait. Hope there's a mens washroom in there!!!
AndyF
Who am I to say that stepping into the streets is or isn't an option for a holy man of the cloth who represents Christ. It could be good for him to let loose the restraints of toleration and patience that his cloth demands so he can have is disrespectful way. But I begin to see now how the problems you related in earlier posts have become burdensome for you and on occasion it is a necessity to do so. Charming has this person is, I am more open to that somewhat holier personality that doesn't find the street comfortable.
You seem to see an opposing view in regards to this fact, I'll say again fact. What is also true is that God sees those collectives bound in sanctioned allegiance as an individual unit and handled accordingly in this chosen form, also fact.
Wrong. More than once and in duplicate circumstances. With a perfect God it certainly can. Every lesson not only sets the example, but an example brought to it's perfection. If he treats a specific people in this way that suits this specific situation, then there is no other way in this case or similar case, and this way is the most perfect way. If it were meant has a lesson to be learned, then that is the way it is to be taken.
If your still up to dialogue, please quote the specific reference I made so that I can clarify. I posted many times on the same theme.
I go now to join the old biddies in your waste basket while I wait. Hope there's a mens washroom in there!!!
AndyF