How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[El Barto]

How by getting rid of what is written to be a sin. common I swear your agenda is to convert us some times. When theres too many laws your going to break one just by turning around. There should be a thread to the validity of what is a sin. and to what reason it is imposed on us . Its all a web to make you feel guilty, to make you feel you are damned and need salvation . Ahh thats where the middle man comes in! I say get out of my way there's only one path to my so called God and no one will get inbetween that.

 

[sanctus]

How by getting rid of what is written to be a sin. common I swear your agenda is to convert us some times. When theres too many laws your going to break one just by turning around. There should be a thread to the validity of what is a sin. and to what reason it is imposed on us . Its all a web to make you feel guilty, to make you feel you are damned and need salvation . Ahh thats where the middle man comes in! I say get out of my way there's only one path to my so called God and no one will get inbetween that.

Indeed. This thread is under Christian Discussion. You wandered in here, no one went out looking for you

 

[marygaspe]

Indeed. This thread is under Christian Discussion. You wandered in here, no one went out looking for you

I just made pretty much the same comment in another thread, but more and more i am seeing the truth of what canadarocks wrote on in another thread. Here we are in a Christian thread, and we got so off track because we who believe had to contend with a host of non-believers jumping in with their anti-Christian rhetoric. The only "civilized" one is gilbert, who is a total dear despite himself

 

[look3467]

Without a doubt.

Then Jesus for you suffered for nothing, because you are depending on your own works!

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[talloola]

I just made pretty much the same comment in another thread, but more and more i am seeing the truth of what canadarocks wrote on in another thread. Here we are in a Christian thread, and we got so off track because we who believe had to contend with a host of non-believers jumping in with their anti-Christian rhetoric. The only "civilized" one is gilbert, who is a total dear despite himself

Those comments are so arrogant, and I would think, confession for you, is in order very soon.

 

[look3467]

The Fathers of the Church often taught that "outside the Church there is no salvation" (e.g., St. Augustine, Sermon 96, 7, 9). Stated positively, this means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church, which is His Body.
Now I would like to point out that even though the wording in the above statement is true, yet the spiritual message is that the church is the membership or for better meaning, the believers as the body of Christ the church. And the second sentence attests to that fact because the head of the body of believers is Christ which is the spiritual church and not the physical church.
We all can become members of Jesus’ body or of His spiritual church regardless of what denomination one is.
For the church or body of Christ has ascended and has become a spiritual body of which we become members of when we are born into it.

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Second Vatican Council teaches that the Church is necessary for salvation. So stated, then all non-Catholics have no hope and Christ is left to save only Catholics.

Christ is the mediator and way of salvation.
Truly spoken!

He is present to us in His body, which is the Church.
He is present if you want Him in your heart of which you are in His body.

He explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism.
Baptism is the fact that as a believer in Christ, you will be subject to testing of your faith. Or as termed: Baptized.(Testing)
Water submersion means that we are willing to be submerged in testing of our faith as our Lord was tested with the aid of the Holy Spirit to hold us up when we fail.
Baptism by water is just a symbolic jester of your intention to submit to Christ’s command. Baptism as a practice saves no one.

By doing so, He affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which people enter through baptism. Because of that, there are people who could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 846).
A non-believer can not be a member of the body of believers because of non-belief. Therefore are considered not save in respect to the body of believers who are saved.

Vatican II teaches that the Church is the "Sacrament of Salvation." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, no. 1; Catechism, no. 780). Christ intended that the Church be a sacrament of the inner union of all people with God. This means that the Church is an effective sign of salvation for all who will be saved. Not just a signpost — like "exit 34" on a freeway — but an actual instrument of salvation. Jesus accomplishes His saving work in and through the Church.

All that you said there is fine and worthy of good work of the church as an organization. A sign post or better termed: “A witness for Christ”. And as you said “an instrument” and that’s all: For the instrument does not save, only Jesus can save.


But what about the billions of people who do not know Christ or the Church?
"Those, who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may attain eternal salvation" (Catechism, no. 847).
Now that statement is in harmony with the dictates of the whole bible and one in which I adhere to adamantly. For: it is my understanding that Jesus died for “All” mankind and not just Catholics.

Sincere non-Christians can be moved by grace to seek God and know and do His will. When they do so according to the dictates of their conscience they can be saved, for by God's will they are associated with the paschal mystery of Christ.
We are in agreement!

What about those outside the Church who belong to other Christian faiths or world religions?
You already answered that with the above quote of yours in one sentence!

I do not have enough space here to give an adequate answer to this question. I strongly recommend studying the Catechism's coverage of this matter in nos. 836-845. The opening statement is instructive: "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . .
If the word Catholic means universal unity, then I will agree with you!

And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic (Universally) faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by grace to salvation" (no. 836).
Members of other Christian churches who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are in a certain, though imperfect, union with the Catholic (universal body of believers) Church. With the Orthodox churches, this union is so close that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Eucharist.
The Church maintains a special relationship with the Jewish people. As the People of God in the New Covenant, the Church has a deep link with the Jewish people, who were the first to hear God's Word. "Unlike other non-Christian religions, the Jewish faith is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant."

I hold the Jewish people with High esteem, because of their sufferings in the world we the Gentiles have gained salvation. For it was they who made the offering to God: by offering Jesus as the sacrificial lamp at their expense. Have and are they not still suffering for it?
Therefore as of today, they are still blinded to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[marygaspe]

Those comments are so arrogant, and I would think, confession for you, is in order very soon.

Why arrogant? I was just commenting that there are a number of people who hijack faith threads by insisting on using those threads to either denounce or attack the faith of the people in the discussion. Not just this thread, but all the faith threads. The minute a new faith thread goes up, in this case a Christian one, at least half a dozen people feel they must interject their opinions on why the Christian faith is in error, even if that has nothing at all to do with the OP. The thread than takes a turn from its intention and becomes a debate with believers vs. non-believers.

 

[marygaspe]

I hold the Jewish people with High esteem, because of their sufferings in the world we the Gentiles have gained salvation. For it was they who made the offering to God: by offering Jesus as the sacrificial lamp at their expense. Have and are they not still suffering for it?
Therefore as of today, they are still blinded to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Your comments would be slightly off wack, as St. Augustine was not talking about Catholicism as universal, but as a member of the Catholic church.

 

[marygaspe]

Then Jesus for you suffered for nothing, because you are depending on your own works!

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Of course not.
Jesus in His sacrifice gave each of us the chance to be redeemed. The choice is ours. We can abandon the faith through many ways, and thus loose our salvation. Faith without works is not faith.

 

[eh1eh]

Religious people don't need to get rid of their sinfulmess. They are free to sin til the cows come home then just say they are sorry and obtain forgivness and salvation.

 

[sanctus]

Religious people don't need to get rid of their sinfulmess. They are free to sin til the cows come home then just say they are sorry and obtain forgivness and salvation.

That would be true of all of us, regardless of what faith we do or do not practice.

 

[eh1eh]

That would be true of all of us, regardless of what faith we do or do not practice.

Not for me. I don't feel I can accept forgivrness from something I don't beleive.

 

[sanctus]

Not for me. I don't feel I can accept forgivrness from something I don't beleive.

Sin and forgiveness begin inside. Without forgiveness, the soul withers.

 

[csanopal]

Then Jesus for you suffered for nothing, because you are depending on your own works!

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

If you read James correctly, you will realize that he never once says that works are the basis for salvation. Instead, his point is that one cannot claim to have faith and yet lack the natural result of that faith, works. Those works play no part whatsoever in salvation. The whole point of James 2:14-25 is to show that works show proof of our faith, which is the basis of our salvation, not that the works themselves help in our salvation. In fact, James asks "can that faith save him?" Why would he ask that question if it was not faith (without works) that saves. His point is that faith without works is not faith at all.

 

[sanctus]

If you read James correctly, you will realize that he never once says that works are the basis for salvation. Instead, his point is that one cannot claim to have faith and yet lack the natural result of that faith, works. Those works play no part whatsoever in salvation. The whole point of James 2:14-25 is to show that works show proof of our faith, which is the basis of our salvation, not that the works themselves help in our salvation. In fact, James asks "can that faith save him?" Why would he ask that question if it was not faith (without works) that saves. His point is that faith without works is not faith at all.

Many Protestants understand being “saved” as a one-moment-in-time act of repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Saviour” (a phrase that nowhere appears in the Bible, by the way), a life-changing transformation of “lost” sinner who becomes a “saved” child of God. It’s an irrevocable step that eliminates the penalties of past sins and guarantees, no matter what might happen from that point forward, that nothing can undo or rescind one’s salvation.

“Once-saved-always-saved” is a slogan many Protestants use to describe their belief in a Christian’s absolute assurance of salvation. And though not all Protestants accept the once-saved-always-saved formula, many, such as Southern Baptists and the myriad of “non-denominational” denominations, do. Two Bible passages commonly cited in support of this view are:

1 John 5:13 – “I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”

John 10:27-29 – “My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

St. John’s assurance that “you have eternal life” is a proclamation of every Christian’s moral, not absolute, assurance of salvation. Christ offers us the gift of salvation, and he will not go back on his word. But you and I are entirely capable of going back on our word by abandoning Christ and, thereby, forfeiting his gift of salvation. St Paul speaks about this in 2 Timothy 2:11-13: “If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.”

Yes, it’s true that we “have” salvation, but whether or not we keep our grasp on it is another matter, as St. Paul will demonstrate in a moment.

But first, let’s consider St. John’s other statement: No one can snatch out of Christ’s hand, those whom the Father has given him. No external power is capable of wresting us out of Christ’s loving embrace (cf. Romans 8:28-29), but you can do it, if you decide to willfully rebel against God through mortal sin (cf. 1 John 5: 16-17), and if you die unrepentant in that state, you will have lost your salvation because you will have, in effect, snatched yourself out of Christ’s hand. This is demonstrated by the following verses:

Romans 11:13-22 – “They [i.e. those who lost their salvation by rejecting Christ] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26–31 — “f we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. . . . How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

2 Peter 2: 20-21 — For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Is there some way to “escape the defilements of the world” other than by being “saved”? No. So this means that some who been saved fall back into grievous sin, thereby losing their salvation.

And recall the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew 18:21-35. He’s a perfect parallel with the sinner who repents, pleads for mercy, and was forgiven by God and his debt of sin wiped out. But the Unforgiving Servant proceeded to mistreat a fellow servant and when the King discovered this, he reinstated his debt and threw him into prison! Christians can indeed lose their salvation by sinful rebellion against God, for as Christ promised, “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” Ask yourself: Why would Christ warn us about this, if there was no danger that it could happen?

Additional Verses to Study:

Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 10:22
John 5:29
Romans 2:5-11
Romans 8;24-25
1 Cor. 9:27
1 Cor. 10:12
Hebrews 6:11
Philippians 2:12-13
1 John 3:21-24
1 John 4:20-21

 

[look3467]

If you read James correctly, you will realize that he never once says that works are the basis for salvation. Instead, his point is that one cannot claim to have faith and yet lack the natural result of that faith, works. Those works play no part whatsoever in salvation. The whole point of James 2:14-25 is to show that works show proof of our faith, which is the basis of our salvation, not that the works themselves help in our salvation. In fact, James asks "can that faith save him?" Why would he ask that question if it was not faith (without works) that saves. His point is that faith without works is not faith at all.

I understand that as you wrote it. Works are a result of our faith. But somehow, mankind thinks that we have a certain degree of righteousness before we can gain salvation.
That was the jest of the discussion which prompt my response as quoted by you.

I know I am saved period! Because it is a gift that was freely given me without any righteousness on my part. Totally free of any works of my own.
But since I appreciate the gift as given, I honor the giver with my respect and in turn surrender my whole life into His hands for guidance through this evil world.

Though the world may suffocate me, my peace and tranquility of spirit is in Jesus.
For I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ and have access to the Fathers attention via His Holy Spirit which is in me.

Psa 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I have everything I need.
Psa 23:2 He lets me rest in fields of green grass and leads me to quiet pools of fresh water.
Psa 23:3 He gives me new strength. He guides me in the right paths, as he has promised.
Psa 23:4 Even if I go through the deepest darkness, I will not be afraid, LORD, for you are with me. Your shepherd's rod and staff protect me.
Psa 23:5 You prepare a banquet for me, where all my enemies can see me; you welcome me as an honored guest and fill my cup to the brim.
Psa 23:6 I know that your goodness and love will be with me all my life; and your house will be my home as long as I live.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

Many Protestants understand being “saved” as a one-moment-in-time act of repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Saviour” (a phrase that nowhere appears in the Bible, by the way), a life-changing transformation of “lost” sinner who becomes a “saved” child of God. It’s an irrevocable step that eliminates the penalties of past sins and guarantees, no matter what might happen from that point forward, that nothing can undo or rescind one’s salvation.
You have stated that correctly of which is my belief exactly! And I have the 7th day rest in my soul!

“Once-saved-always-saved” is a slogan many Protestants use to describe their belief in a Christian’s absolute assurance of salvation.
Similarly there are various sects of Catholicism which do not adhere to the Church of Rome.

And though not all Protestants accept the once-saved-always-saved formula, many, such as Southern Baptists and the myriad of “non-denominational” denominations, do. Two Bible passages commonly cited in support of this view are:

1 John 5:13 – “I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”
That I may know and one that I can count on with my life’s soul! A worthy promise!

John 10:27-29 – “My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
Yes, again, a promise that this world will not affect my safety of salvation no matter what this world can do to my body, my soul is safe kept! Who would not want to claim this verse? I mean what is it in this world which anyone would want to place their soul keeping in? Do we not know that everything in this world perishes at our death?
I don’t know about any of you all, but I will place my bet in Jesus. I will place all my chips on Him.

St. John’s assurance that “you have eternal life” is a proclamation of every Christian’s moral, not absolute, assurance of salvation.
You started to say that correctly until you said “not absolute”, for assurance of my salvation is to me an absolute.

Christ offers us the gift of salvation, and he will not go back on his word. That is a promise that you and I can bank on!

But you and I are entirely capable of going back on our word by abandoning Christ and, thereby, forfeiting his gift of salvation.
Our behavior is what wavers, not the gift of Christ. Jesus wavered not which was the reason for gaining the gift for us, because without God we, can do nothing for ourselves.




St Paul speaks about this in 2 Timothy 2:11-13: “If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.”
Explain to me how we have died with Him? And how we can live with Him? And if we endure not: what then? Dying with Him and living with Him instantly vanishes? What security is there in my own efforts? I trust not in my own self for I am not capable of achieving any good that would even come close to my gaining salvation. So I have to accept the free gift of salvation from one who has endured to the end for me and in whom I can rely on as promised.

Yes, it’s true that we “have” salvation, but whether or not we keep our grasp on it is another matter, as St. Paul will demonstrate in a moment.
“But”? Conditioned on my own efforts? My righteousness is as fitly rags so whatever righteousness I attempt will not meet the grade. So I have to rely on the righteousness of Jesus.

But first, let’s consider St. John’s other statement: No one can snatch out of Christ’s hand, those whom the Father has given him. No external power is capable of wresting us out of Christ’s loving embrace (cf. Romans 8:28-29), but you can do it, if you decide to willfully rebel against God through mortal sin (cf. 1 John 5: 16-17), and if you die unrepentant in that state, you will have lost your salvation because you will have, in effect, snatched yourself out of Christ’s hand. This is demonstrated by the following verses:

Romans 11:13-22 – “They [i.e. those who lost their salvation by rejecting Christ] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Lets understand something here: Salvation is available as a free gift to all who would receive it while yet in the flesh. It is an offering of our God to us with absolutely no work done on our part. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a free gift. Acceptance or rejection is our choice.
But at the end of our life, our souls belong to Jesus for He paid the price for them.
Now, if you should decide to accept this free gift, than it can not be taken back, but if you do not live right after you have accepted it, than you will be administered correction by the Holy Spirit for misuse of the gift.
And you have rightly quoted the next verse in agreement to what I just said.

Hebrews 10:26–31 — “f we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. . . . How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

There you said it. For it is worse going for the one that knows to do right than for the one that doesn’t!

2 Peter 2: 20-21 — For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”
There again you have explained what I just said above.

Is there some way to “escape the defilements of the world” other than by being “saved”? No. So this means that some who been saved fall back into grievous sin, thereby losing their salvation.
Salvation: Never! Falling from the graces of God? Yes! Consider a father whose son is rebellious. The father still loves the son and affords every possibility to the son to repent from his rebellious ways. Still a son mind you but the son separates himself from the fathers love and graces to his own pearl.

And recall the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew 18:21-35. He’s a perfect parallel with the sinner who repents, pleads for mercy, and was forgiven by God and his debt of sin wiped out. But the Unforgiving Servant proceeded to mistreat a fellow servant and when the King discovered this, he reinstated his debt and threw him into prison! Christians can indeed lose their salvation by sinful rebellion against God, for as Christ promised, “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” Ask yourself: Why would Christ warn us about this, if there was no danger that it could happen?

We can loose our standing but not our salvation. In the case above the servant lost his standing of forgiveness, and there by had to pay as required.

Salvation is not something that we can have it, or not have it, have it or not have it.
It is not a cycle but a constant. An: absolute thing.
Now our behavior is as like the waves of the sea, up and down, up and down. Something has to be a constant that we may rely on because our behavior is such that it could never achieve perfection.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

Similarly there are various sects of Catholicism which do not adhere to the Church of Rome.

Then they are not Catholic. Simple and to the point.

 

[sanctus]

AJ, your salvation claims are so impossible that it is a wonder a grown man can believe in such silliness. Nowhere, but nowhere in the Scriptures does it suggest "once saved-always saved". that is dogmatic heresy. Salvation is always a process, and though Jesus opens the door for us, it is expected for us to actually walk through that door. We can CHOOSE to not do so, thus negating our previous salvation.This has ALWAYS been the teaching of the Christian faith, until just a century or so ago.

 

[marygaspe]

AJ, your salvation claims are so impossible that it is a wonder a grown man can believe in such silliness. Nowhere, but nowhere in the Scriptures does it suggest "once saved-always saved". that is dogmatic heresy. Salvation is always a process, and though Jesus opens the door for us, it is expected for us to actually walk through that door. We can CHOOSE to not do so, thus negating our previous salvation.This has ALWAYS been the teaching of the Christian faith, until just a century or so ago.

I feel, personally, that AJ is so busy worshipping his Bible he has no time for doctrine or Jesus.