How can we get rid of our sinfulness?
- Thread starter sanctus
- Start date
I must agree with you. I have tried very hard to read his posts and understand what he is trying to say. I'm not a stupid woman, and I am involved in my parish so am not ignorant of the general Christian terms.I also attempt to read the Bible on a regular basis. I am in the CWL (CAtholic Women's League). I am on the Altar Guild and I am one of the ladies who runs our annual bazaar.
My point is not to list my activities, but to show that I do know a thing or two about the faith and the Church.
I very much resent being told that I somehow lack faith or do not know Jesus or the Bible well enough because I do not understand some of the off-based theories AJ has developed.
I'm sorry, when push comes to shove, I am going to have to rely on the expertise of a 2,000 year old Church. If the Catholic Church is wrong, in my opinion, than so too are its offshoots.
There is little doubt that our friend AJ is lost in false doctrine. We've all read evidence of his erroneous assumption of his self-importance. But maybe what we need doing now is prayer, prayer for him and each other as we try to wander through this world hoping to connect.
You're right Fr. Maybe we should retrace out steps in this thread and go back to its theme. At what point can we ever really expect to be saved? Can it be a one time thing? Obviously not, for we are constantly marching on the way to salvation.
Soooo.. I dug way back to the OP for these comments
I have always found this a bit difficult to understand. Why did God have to send His Son knowing his Son would be killed? I mean, id seems awfully drastic!
By Christ's passion we have been delivered from sin, in that Christ inasmuch as He is our head, by His passion which He endured for us out of love and obedience, as by the price of His passion, redeemed us as His members from sins. He redeemed us in the same way as if a man by the good industry of his hands were to redeem himself from a sin committed with his feet. We are here concerned with the sufficiency of the Passion as regards all past, present, and future sins, but the fruits of the Passion must be applied to us by means of the sacraments, or at least by implicit living faith in Christ.Soooo.. I dug way back to the OP for these comments
Last edited:
Thanks for considering me in your prayers. I can always use Gods help.
OK, since you guys won’t listen to my view point, then, teach me the steps to be saved using bible scripture to prove your point.
At what point then as you said, do we expect to be saved? What must I do to be saved?
Now, it’s your turn to teach me! And can I play devils advocate?
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Fundamentalist teachings says that "no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit."
One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.
The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
that makes sense. this idea that all you gotta do is get saved once and not worry about it means i can get saved on monday and spend the rest of the week sinning cos it dont matter anyway cos im already saved. its bizarre.
Fundamentalist teachings says that "no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit."
Do you know why they say that?
One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.
This gift is unavoidable! Christ died for all mankind without our consent!
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
The story of Adam and Eve is a child’s story of creation. I mean was it an apple?The adult version of that is that the creation of the flesh is what brought separation or death to the soul. Understanding that then, details why Jesus had to come and reconcile the souls in the flesh back to God.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
The over righting conclusion as the adult version, by that I mean the maturity of the word in us, is that Christ died for our soul unconditionally.
Now not to mix behavior with salvation, behavior is dealt with here on this earth while are souls have or will be saved.
It is possibly to experience that salvation while yet being alive in the flesh, such as I claim now to be the case with me, and so my good works stem from that experience.
I can safely and affirmatively state, that I am saved from here on end, and that nothing can affect that salvation.
That is something that many can not claim because they tie behavior with un-merited salvation.
Since I claim to understand the adult version of the message, I am criticized as a know it all.
That “Know it all” is a statement children and young adults always say to their parents when they don’t like something that goes contrary to what they want.
When one accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, than one is “born” of God! And if born of God, one can not become unborn, born and unborn, born and unborn.
It is not a cycle that behavior dictates the end result of our souls.
If it did, then Jesus would have sacrificed His life for nothing.
The gift of God is life, take it now, and start living eternity now! You may not always behave like a new creature, but you always have room for forgiveness. How many times did Jesus say to forgive? 7x7=49. Add Jesus (1) and that equals 50. Liberty or grace extended.
The year of jubilee: When all is forgiven!
Check it out!
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Do you know why they say that?
One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.
This gift is unavoidable! Christ died for all mankind without our consent!
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
The story of Adam and Eve is a child’s story of creation. I mean was it an apple?The adult version of that is that the creation of the flesh is what brought separation or death to the soul. Understanding that then, details why Jesus had to come and reconcile the souls in the flesh back to God.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
The over righting conclusion as the adult version, by that I mean the maturity of the word in us, is that Christ died for our soul unconditionally.
Now not to mix behavior with salvation, behavior is dealt with here on this earth while are souls have or will be saved.
It is possibly to experience that salvation while yet being alive in the flesh, such as I claim now to be the case with me, and so my good works stem from that experience.
I can safely and affirmatively state, that I am saved from here on end, and that nothing can affect that salvation.
That is something that many can not claim because they tie behavior with un-merited salvation.
Since I claim to understand the adult version of the message, I am criticized as a know it all.
That “Know it all” is a statement children and young adults always say to their parents when they don’t like something that goes contrary to what they want.
When one accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, than one is “born” of God! And if born of God, one can not become unborn, born and unborn, born and unborn.
It is not a cycle that behavior dictates the end result of our souls.
If it did, then Jesus would have sacrificed His life for nothing.
The gift of God is life, take it now, and start living eternity now! You may not always behave like a new creature, but you always have room for forgiveness. How many times did Jesus say to forgive? 7x7=49. Add Jesus (1) and that equals 50. Liberty or grace extended.
The year of jubilee: When all is forgiven!
Check it out!
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
The Fathers of the Church often taught that "outside the Church there is no salvation" (e.g., St. Augustine, Sermon 96, 7, 9). Stated positively, this means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church, which is His Body.
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Second Vatican Council teaches that the Church is necessary for salvation. Christ is the mediator and way of salvation. He is present to us in His body, which is the Church. He explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism. By doing so, He affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which people enter through baptism. Because of that, there are people who could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 846).
Vatican II teaches that the Church is the "Sacrament of Salvation." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, no. 1; Catechism, no. 780). Christ intended that the Church be a sacrament of the inner union of all people with God. This means that the Church is an effective sign of salvation for all who will be saved. Not just a signpost — like "exit 34" on a freeway — but an actual instrument of salvation. Jesus accomplishes His saving work in and through the Church.
But what about the billions of people who do not know Christ or the Church?
"Those, who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may attain eternal salvation" (Catechism, no. 847). Sincere non-Christians can be moved by grace to seek God and know and do His will. When they do so according to the dictates of their conscience they can be saved, for by God's will they are associated with the paschal mystery of Christ.
What about those outside the Church who belong to other Christian faiths or world religions? I do not have enough space here to give an adequate answer to this question. I strongly recommend studying the Catechism's coverage of this matter in nos. 836-845. The opening statement is instructive: "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by grace to salvation" (no. 836).
Members of other Christian churches who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are in a certain, though imperfect, union with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this union is so close that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Eucharist.
The Church maintains a special relationship with the Jewish people. As the People of God in the New Covenant, the Church has a deep link with the Jewish people, who were the first to hear God's Word. "Unlike other non-Christian religions, the Jewish faith is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant."
We must never forget that certain Church teachings can never change, regardless of whether or not people accept them or are faithful to them. These teachings are fixed in the very revelation of Jesus Christ and are transmitted through Sacred Scripture and the apostolic Tradition, and in faithfulness to Jesus Christ are upheld by the magisterium of the Church. They include the following:
- The One God is a Trinity of divine persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit which "is the central mystery of Christian faith and life" (CCC 234).
- "Jesus means in Hebrew: `God saves"' (CCC 430). He is the Savior of the world and no one can be saved apart from him (CCC 432).
- There are seven sacraments of the Church (CCC 1113), and they include the Eucharist, in which Jesus is truly and substantially present (CCC 1374); Marriage, which is the union of one man and one woman (CCC 1603-05); and Holy Orders, which can be conferred only on men (CCC 1577).
- Some acts are intrinsically evil and thus always wrong. Such acts include: euthanasia (CCC 2276-79), abortion (CCC 2270-2275), blasphemy (CCC 2148-49), murder (CCC 2258-2269), various "offenses against chastity" (CCC 2351-59), contraception (CCC 2370, 2399), and lying (CCC 2482-2486). They should never be chosen or approved by anyone who believes in Jesus Christ.
- The virginity of Mary, her Assumption into heaven and her Immaculate Conception (CCC 487-507, 966).
As a non-Catholic, a non "anything" really, I wonder why it would be so wrong to change even one of these doctrines? Do you feel to do so would endanger the whole?
It would actually. To change one thing would mean the rest is also open for change.It's like a wall, take away one brick and it becomes easier to take away another, until finally the wall crumbles.