Is God Consistant in anything and Accountable?

[AndyF]

After so many of those selected (Call them prophets of mine) the message was somewhat obscured by the delivery of the message by means of imperfect ants.

The question first needs to be answered:

Are all beings obligated to use the gifts(attributes?) that they possess to do good when it is appropriate time to do so?

Here again if we can determine each being's accountability, we can determine if the rule applies. Your question, as with many others, can't be answered until we determine the answer, but we can create hypotheticals.

If you can foresee(your attribute by order of the authority), then you would be obligated to use that gift, and you would know the risk of using such a method would jeopardize the reception of news the ants in further generations could use to their advantage. The failure not only is attributed to the false prophet ants, but to you also, in not employing the most likely method that you were aware of to ensure the message would get across. It means you are not entirely forthcoming as you had an alterior motive to not using the best method, therefore culpability is shared.

If I were in the trenches in war, and I as captain sent a drunken soldier to deliver a message that the enemy would strike a forward position soon, and he got caught up in a drinking party half way to the destination, and the forward position got wiped out, then that would be irresponsible of me.

But if I picked a virtuous soldier to do the task, and I have the ability to foresee, and he was successful, then I am responsible. If I picked a virtuous soldier and he stopped at the same party, and I knew he would, then I am partly culpable. So you see it would depend on what I am trying to accomplish, and if I used all the power and attributes I have.

The context of your anology is establishment of a new order and creation of a new world. It would seem to me that it calls for a general revelation using the tools of empirical and existential realities that the beings to whom Justice applies would understand. A question and answer session would be helpful.:angel8: Bringing all the kings of the world togeather would be a good idea. I could linger for a few days. From then on I could be mystic has they would have had an initial, unambiguous, in-your-face, one-on-one encounter with me.

It is difficult to envisage a being with no justice system that applies to him, that he is not accountable to any authority, that double standards seem to be a norm. The problem is only in every Justice system should double standards have no place or influence.

AndyF

 

[hermanntrude]

If I were a god, and wanted to communicate with a colony of ants, how would I do it?
Well, first I think I would enlist the help of some ant and give him a message via my spirit to communicate that message using his own words.
How suppose it would come out? What if the ant I selected had some beef with a neighboring ant colony, or had minimal education, or was hot tempered? How would my message be properly translated to have the maximum effect?
Well, it would go out but somewhat flawed with respect to wording, educational ability, location and or world condition.

After so many of those selected (Call them prophets of mine) the message was somewhat obscured by the delivery of the message by means of imperfect ants.

The next step would be fer sure, was for me to become and ant, and call it “my communicator son ant" long awaited: as prophesied.
Get the drift?

Now here’s the interesting part about this story, though it is only a story, yet the message is there, declaring my coming to the ant colony.

The non-believer would say, impossible! I would have to see if before I can believe it. It is not physical possible. God become an ant? Get out of here! You’re kidding, ain’t shwa?

The believer would say, I believe it because I see the message.
Having faith then: in the message, not the story, is what brings salvation.

The message is, I will send my son into the world by becoming flesh, fulfill all my requirements, and save the world.



Peace>>>AJ:love9:




Peace>>>AJ

this is an interesting metaphor. Let's continue it but assume ants have a language, as we humans do. If i wanted to communicate with the ants, i'd learn to speak ant, since i'm much cleverer than they are, and then i'd talk directly to them, by means of a speaker system i set up near their nest, then i'd listen and repeat my message in new ways until i was sure we understood each other.

 

[look3467]

The question first needs to be answered:

Are all beings obligated to use the gifts(attributes?) that they possess to do good when it is appropriate time to do so?
Let me respond to this first: Each individual is born with a set of gifts. Let me quote scripture here for there is were I get my knowledge from: 1Co 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

A perfect example is that of Saul of Tarsus. He was gifted in all knowledge of the laws of Moses, yet could not see Jesus as the Son of God, for He was blinded by the law.
He would seek out Christians for persecution and death.
But Jesus (God) turned his heart around, changed him, called his name Paul;, and became an apostle to the Gentiles.
Many of the books in the New Testament are by his words.
God used Saul’s values and tenacious attitude for His cause by causing Saul to see Jesus face to face on the road to Damascus.
After that encounter, Saul: now Paul became a tenacious advocate for the cause of Christ.

Here again if we can determine each being's accountability, we can determine if the rule applies. Your question, as with many others, can't be answered until we determine the answer, but we can create hypothetical’s. Yes, but remember God’s goal and how he uses the abilities of each person. Each person must learn to deal with self while delivering the message. For there in, is the key to the message being delivered with effectiveness.

If you can foresee (your attribute by order of the authority), then you would be obligated to use that gift, and you would know the risk of using such a method would jeopardize the reception of news the ants in further generations could use to their advantage. You are describing the same issues that the prophet Jonah was having.

The failure not only is attributed to the false prophet ants, but to you also, in not employing the most likely method that you were aware of to ensure the message would get across. God says that whatever message He sends out will not become void. That is a given with absolutely no margin of error.
Look at the story of the Prophet Jonah and see how that worked out. You will see the difference in mans view and Gods view, Guess which one prevailed?
It means you are not entirely forthcoming as you had an ulterior motive to not using the best method, therefore culpability is shared. With God, all is accomplished with or without us. But He chooses to be long-suffering and willing to work with us, much like a father works with a rebellious son or daughter.
If I were in the trenches in war, and I as captain sent a drunken soldier to deliver a message that the enemy would strike a forward position soon, and he got caught up in a drinking party half way to the destination, and the forward position got wiped out, then that would be irresponsible of me. Correct! We would think, but God being God knows the outcome and works to that individual’s conscience to achieve his intended purpose.

But if I picked a virtuous soldier to do the task, and I have the ability to foresee, and he was successful, then I am responsible. Correct again! If I picked a virtuous soldier and he stopped at the same party, and I knew he would, then I am partly culpable. So you see it would depend on what I am trying to accomplish, and if I used all the power and attributes I have. You are absolutely correct in your logic!

The context of your analogy is establishment of a new order and creation of a new world. It would seem to me that it calls for a general revelation using the tools of empirical and existential realities that the beings to whom Justice applies would understand. Correct! But the whole premise of life is to learn, and learning can only happen in a set condition of trials.
A question and answer session would be helpful.:angel8: Bringing all the kings of the world together would be a good idea. I could linger for a few days. From then on I could be mystic as they would have had an initial, unambiguous, in-your-face, one-on-one encounter with me. Wouldn’t that be just wonderful? But because the flesh is what it is, evil is ever present to reject any notion of that happening.

It is difficult to envisage a being with no justice system that applies to him, that he is not accountable to any authority that double standards seem to be a norm. The problem is only in every Justice system should double standards have no place or influence.
There is no double standard with God. It is the only way He rules His kingdom. We are creatures of His creation subject to what ever conditions He imposes on us. We have no rights, only what rights He gives us.
The same self rules that apply to Him, apply to us.
He stands by His word as He expects us to do by our word.
But because He subjected us to this earth with death being separation, He also made a way out of it offering to deliver us from set condition, if we but only listen to Him.

AndyF

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

this is an interesting metaphor. Let's continue it but assume ants have a language, as we humans do. If i wanted to communicate with the ants, i'd learn to speak ant, since i'm much cleverer than they are, and then i'd talk directly to them, by means of a speaker system i set up near their nest, then i'd listen and repeat my message in new ways until i was sure we understood each other.

The problem with that logic is that the spiritual realm can only be touched by the spirit. A loud speaker is not a means, but the heart is. If you could speak the the ants heart, that is if, the ant would hear it, then you could accomplish much.
But because the conditions in which the ant lives, and because of the realities of the ants life, it would think that unless He would hear it from you directly, it wouldn't believe you even exist.

God knew what condition He was going to place us in way before He breathe life into the first clay vessel.
Here is the scripture verse for that: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

And of all people to deliver that message, was Paul.

The bible may seem complicated, but is not. It all depends on our desire to seek answers from God.
We will find answers in many different ways, but the tutor is always going to be the Holy Spirit.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

There is a bif diff between faith and belief. You may believe something if giving all sorts of scientific facts but if such facts are not forth coming you must have faith. In the materialistic world we have created faith many times takes a back seat to belief. I follow pagan gods. Do I believe that this world, Midgard, is sandwiched between Vanahiem and Niflheim? Not. But I have faith that if I follow the ancient tenets of the Norse mythologies that I can lead a decent and upstanding life. We all need an anchor so as not to go adrift. Wether that be the god of the Abrahamic religions, the gods of the old pagan ways, family and children or faith in yourself to get along just fine without old wives tales.


"Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

I am assuming this was Romans 8:20. I don't recal ever saying this here myself, lol.

 

[AndyF]

The Bible indicates in Isaiah 45:7 that God creates all good and all evil. He is totally unapologetic in that passage.

He creates all evil? Sure you didn't misread that?

newadvent.org/sin

God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good. Everything else possesses but a limited being, and, in so far as it possesses being, it is good. When it has its due proportion of form and order and measure it is, in its own order and degree, good. Evil implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good; it is found only in finite beings which, because of their origin from nothing, are subject to the privation of form or order or measure due them, and, through the opposition they encounter, are liable to an increase or decrease of the perfection they have: "for evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among human beings at least, the suffering in which life abounds".

AndyF

 

[look3467]

There is a bif diff between faith and belief. You may believe something if giving all sorts of scientific facts but if such facts are not forth coming you must have faith. In the materialistic world we have created faith many times takes a back seat to belief. I follow pagan gods. Do I believe that this world, Midgard, is sandwiched between Vanahiem and Niflheim? Not. But I have faith that if I follow the ancient tenets of the Norse mythologies that I can lead a decent and upstanding life. We all need an anchor so as not to go adrift. Wether that be the god of the Abrahamic religions, the gods of the old pagan ways, family and children or faith in yourself to get along just fine without old wives tales.


"Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

I am assuming this was Romans 8:20. I don't recal ever saying this here myself, lol.

Prior to Jesus Christ's appearance, belief in other gods was a norm because God Himself was not identified except through the Jewish People.
So, pagan gods flourished to where there were many gods.
To the Jewish Nation there was but only one God, and all other gods were not accepted.

One has to see Gods design in the works.

When Jesus came, the Jewish nation considered Jesus to be another god, not the God they knew.

So they crucified Him. That was designed that way so that the non-Jews, the Gentiles, would have equal access to the true God as represented through the Jewish nation. So that the Gentiles would know also who the true God was.

The deed being done than, relieves the Jewish nation from responsibility to proclaim the true God, and now God makes Himself available to all peoples of all nations and of all beliefs, without discrimination.

That is the good news.

Now, if one wishes not to accept that God, belief in, or adhere to any of His teachings, that comes to a persons loss. I say loss, because in believing in Him brings blessings unmerited.

Otherwise, the world is all one has.

Rom 8:20 indicates the conditions in which we were born into, not of our choosing. So we now live here and must deal with all consequences according to our actions or behavior

If one is content to live without belief in God, and has good behavior, it does not go unnoticed.

It is rewarded according to ones works, but that is it.

Belief in God, not only gets rewarded, but also spiritual rewarded as well.

A new heart is one of as like the heart of God. Compassion, love for enemies, kindness, gentleness, long-suffering, slow to anger, joy of spirit, and contentment in the midst of suffering.

All this is a learned experience that enables us to know our true creator.

It is my conclusion, based on all my studies that our abilities learned here on earth will be rewarded in being given authority to govern some plant in this vast universe of God.

One verse is this one: Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

He creates all evil? Sure you didn't misread that?

newadvent.org/sin

God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good. Everything else possesses but a limited being, and, in so far as it possesses being, it is good. When it has its due proportion of form and order and measure it is, in its own order and degree, good. Evil implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good; it is found only in finite beings which, because of their origin from nothing, are subject to the privation of form or order or measure due them, and, through the opposition they encounter, are liable to an increase or decrease of the perfection they have: "for evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among human beings at least, the suffering in which life abounds".

AndyF

Quote: "Evil implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good;

That is key in understanding the love God has for us. It is also key to the accusation that God is a murderer and all evil attributed to Him as done to mankind.

For in God exists no evil, and would not go against Himself.

We are less than perfect, and we are not God, but if we have God in us, then He makes us perfect, still being who we are.

And Andy, you have an excellent understanding. Do I know you from some other forum?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[hermanntrude]

The problem with that logic is that the spiritual realm can only be touched by the spirit. Peace>>>AJ:love9:

I lost my respect for the way you think right here. If i can't apply logic to my questioning of the iddue then I can't do it. I refuse to deliberately think without reasoning. it'd be crazy. If i applied that kind of thinking to eating i'd end up stuffing food up my arse. if i applied it to my job i might pour aqua regia in my ear. I wouldn't last long that's for sure.

 

[look3467]

I lost my respect for the way you think right here. If i can't apply logic to my questioning of the iddue then I can't do it. I refuse to deliberately think without reasoning. it'd be crazy. If i applied that kind of thinking to eating i'd end up stuffing food up my arse. if i applied it to my job i might pour aqua regia in my ear. I wouldn't last long that's for sure.

Logic is fine, herman, in respect for the understanding in the natural.
Spiritual understandings, goes against natural logic.
To try to understand something spiritual logically, it won't happen. Enter faith.

To reason with the natural mind is to logically think in matters that we can uses the five senses with.

To think spiritually, the senses don't apply.

For it is in our hearts, our spirits heart where these spiritual understanding reside, for the natural can not touch them or affect them in any way.

Once one has spiritual understanding, the natural has no bearing on the out come.

The spiritual will supersede the natural, and the spirit lives on forever.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

He creates all evil? Sure you didn't misread that?>>>AndyF

Created the conditions for evil to exist, but God does no evil. As you pointed out, that perfection is unatainable in an inperfect world. Not in those words, but similiar.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[hermanntrude]

so you're saying spirituality defies logic and is in fact irrational?

 

[MikeyDB]

Great gobs of hawgwash in that post my friend...

To think spiritually the senes don't apply....?

How do you know you love someone, do you feel it or do you just believe that faith in love will mean it's really there?

 

[look3467]

Great gobs of hawgwash in that post my friend...

To think spiritually the senes don't apply....?

How do you know you love someone, do you feel it or do you just believe that faith in love will mean it's really there?

When the spirits heart inhabits the creator, the resultant is displayed through the five senses.
The five senses are what directs us to Him, in the form of sufferings or experience.

Meaning that we must be in the flesh to learn who God is.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[hermanntrude]

very trite. but it doesnt lead us any closer to an explanation.

 

[look3467]

so you're saying spirituality defies logic and is in fact irrational?

Spiritual can only be understood spiritually.
Logic is a natural understanding.

For example: Love your enemies. Natural logic is,"hey he kicks me, I'm going to kick back".

But spiritually looking at that same situation is: Forgiveness which goes against natural logic.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[hermanntrude]

that's not true. it's perfectly logical to forgive and love one's enemies. It reduces the hatred in the world and leads to a peaceful life. I discovered that the hard, illogical way.

 

[look3467]

very trite. but it doesnt lead us any closer to an explanation.

It does if we but could understand why we were created in the first place. If we had a choice and knew before hand what this world had in store for us, we might decide not to be born.

But because we had no choice, then we must learn by experiencing suffering, who we are. Why are we here and the injustice done us by making us be born.

When we learn why, than our hearts change to that of love an appreciation for being born, and we become like our creator,able to be kings over our own existence.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

that's not true. it's perfectly logical to forgive and love one's enemies. It reduces the hatred in the world and leads to a peaceful life. I discovered that the hard, illogical way.

If you are able to forgive someone who is beating you up, why? Is it a natural thing to let someone beat us up?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[hermanntrude]

It does if we but could understand why we were created in the first place. If we had a choice and knew before hand what this world had in store for us, we might decide not to be born.

But because we had no choice, then we must learn by experiencing suffering, who we are. Why are we here and the injustice done us by making us be born.

When we learn why, than our hearts change to that of love an appreciation for being born, and we become like our creator,able to be kings over our own existence.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

That's one thing i'm resigned to probably never knowing.