Harper letter dismissed Kyoto a money-sucking socialist scheme

[Tonington]

The new plan the Government just released may enable you to change your windows to be more energy efficient, but definitely not enough to pay for geothermal unfortunately.

No one is asking people to freeze. We're limited by economics and available choices, were those to change we'd be in a whole different ball game.

 

[Vicious]

Did the windows last year without the incentive. I maybe a global warming troglodyte, but I do care that the kiddies don't freeze to death.

I'm willing to entertain proposed solutions. But other than the bluster to do something now I haven't heard a decent proposal that will do anything at all. What's the big solution that I'm missing?

 

[Tonington]

Whenever you replace something, you can check here. Theres incentives for a variety of things, from furnaces to appliances, also the energy audit thing, I'm not to sure how that works, it looks like it's only for the audit, not sure about actual building/renovation costs.

 

[Karlin]

Window Dressing will not do the job.

Window Dressing will not do the job. Its all just a dodge. Sure, do it, of course, but it won't be enough, and it seems to be a distraction from doing what really needs to be done. For eg., you here are talking about that insterad of "getting away from fossil fuels as much as possible" - we are not even trying to see how far alternative energy applications can go!! Look at some of the privately-inspired solar powered roof tops projects and wind mills - we are not doing those much at all, lets focus on those type of things that will ultimately lead us out of fossil fuel dependancy. Experts agree with me, b t w.

Reducing our FOSSIL FUEL EMISSIONS and using renewable energy is the only real hope of avoiding the worst of climate changes.

We missed the boat for keeping the balanced climate we once had.

We allready went too far with F.F. emissions, it is too late to find ways to "do that better", and so now we need real changes. There is a huge and powerfull wealthy Elite that will fight it though.

 

[ottawabill]

I AM SURE THAT WE DON'T HELP THE PLANET WITH OUR POLUTANTS,,,, BUT IF ITS ALL US..THEN WHO WARMED THE EARTH ALL THE OTHER TIMES IN HISTORY??? DINOSAURS DIDN'T DRIVE!!

"
[SIZE=+2]A Brief History of Ice Ages and Warming[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+3]G[/SIZE]lobal warming started long before the "Industrial Revolution" and the invention of the internal combustion engine. Global warming began 18,000 years ago as the earth started warming its way out of the Pleistocene Ice Age-- a time when much of North America, Europe, and Asia lay buried beneath great sheets of glacial ice.
Earth's climate and the biosphere have been in constant flux, dominated by ice ages and glaciers for the past several million years. We are currently enjoying a temporary reprieve from the deep freeze.
Approximately every 100,000 years Earth's climate warms up temporarily. These warm periods, called interglacial periods, appear to last approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years before regressing back to a cold ice age climate. At year 18,000 and counting our current interglacial vacation from the Ice Age is much nearer its end than its beginning.
Global warming during Earth's current interglacial warm period has greatly altered our environment and the distribution and diversity of all life. For example:

Approximately 15,000 years ago the earth had warmed sufficiently to halt the advance of glaciers, and sea levels worldwide began to rise.​

By 8,000 years ago the land bridge across the Bearing Strait was drowned, cutting off the migration of men and animals to North America.​

Since the end of the Ice Age, Earth's temperature has risen approximately 16 degrees F and sea levels have risen a total of 300 feet! Forests have returned where once there was only ice.​

 

[Tonington]

One key difference between then and now, the carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide produced by fossil fuels was in the ground, not the air.

 

[talloola]

Kyoto is but a small first step. Not only should we do whatever is necessary to meet our obligations under Kyoto, we should be busy negotiating a stronger, better Kyoto II. Most of the criticism of Kyoto is founded on ignorance.

We should be working toward a new agreement, that doesn't let China and others like them "off" the
hook.

 

[MMMike]

I'm willing to entertain proposed solutions. But other than the bluster to do something now I haven't heard a decent proposal that will do anything at all. What's the big solution that I'm missing?

There is no one solution. But there are hundreds of things than can and should be done now that will make a difference. Nothing groundbreaking, just normal stuff that should be common sense. We already have the technology, lets us it. There are massive improvements in energy efficiency of buildings that can be acheived with little to no increase in capital cost. There are massive efficiencies to be realized by improving vehicle fuel economy. The government should start putting a cost to the environmental impact of fossil fuel use through a heavy carbon tax. Just watch industry scramble to respond. It can even be done in a way to be revenue neutral (i.e. offset by corporate or personal income tax cuts). We know what needs to be done, so let's get on with it.

 

[MMMike]

I AM SURE THAT WE DON'T HELP THE PLANET WITH OUR POLUTANTS,,,, BUT IF ITS ALL US..THEN WHO WARMED THE EARTH ALL THE OTHER TIMES IN HISTORY??? DINOSAURS DIDN'T DRIVE!!

"
[SIZE=+2]A Brief History of Ice Ages and Warming[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+3]G[/SIZE]lobal warming started long before the "Industrial Revolution" and the invention of the internal combustion engine. Global warming began 18,000 years ago as the earth started warming its way out of the Pleistocene Ice Age-- a time when much of North America, Europe, and Asia lay buried beneath great sheets of glacial ice.
Earth's climate and the biosphere have been in constant flux, dominated by ice ages and glaciers for the past several million years. We are currently enjoying a temporary reprieve from the deep freeze.
Approximately every 100,000 years Earth's climate warms up temporarily. These warm periods, called interglacial periods, appear to last approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years before regressing back to a cold ice age climate. At year 18,000 and counting our current interglacial vacation from the Ice Age is much nearer its end than its beginning.
Global warming during Earth's current interglacial warm period has greatly altered our environment and the distribution and diversity of all life. For example:

Approximately 15,000 years ago the earth had warmed sufficiently to halt the advance of glaciers, and sea levels worldwide began to rise.​

By 8,000 years ago the land bridge across the Bearing Strait was drowned, cutting off the migration of men and animals to North America.​

Since the end of the Ice Age, Earth's temperature has risen approximately 16 degrees F and sea levels have risen a total of 300 feet! Forests have returned where once there was only ice.​

:roll: Wow, how could the thousands of scientists working in the field have missed that?? Please... it's no secret there are normal cylces in the earths climate caused by variations in the earth's orbit and tilt. Google Milankovich cycles. That's does not explain what we're seeing today. The environment exists in a delicate balance and we are upsetting that balance by burning fossil fuels. Look at the massive spike in CO2 emissions starting at the time of the industrial revolution. We have CO2 concentrations going back tens of thousands of years (from ice cores in the artic) and nothing matches what we are seeing today.

 

[MMMike]

We should be working toward a new agreement, that doesn't let China and others like them "off" the
hook.

Well, I agree. We have to engage China in the process. But it's hard to tut tut them when we are putting out an order of magnitude more CO2 than they are (on a per capita basis).

 

[Toro]

Kyoto is but a small first step. Not only should we do whatever is necessary to meet our obligations under Kyoto, we should be busy negotiating a stronger, better Kyoto II. Most of the criticism of Kyoto is founded on ignorance.

What Canadians are ignorant about are the costs of Kyoto, which is exactly why the Liberals didn't actually do anything about it.

There is no one solution. But there are hundreds of things than can and should be done now that will make a difference. Nothing groundbreaking, just normal stuff that should be common sense. We already have the technology, lets us it. There are massive improvements in energy efficiency of buildings that can be acheived with little to no increase in capital cost. There are massive efficiencies to be realized by improving vehicle fuel economy. The government should start putting a cost to the environmental impact of fossil fuel use through a heavy carbon tax. Just watch industry scramble to respond. It can even be done in a way to be revenue neutral (i.e. offset by corporate or personal income tax cuts). We know what needs to be done, so let's get on with it.

You're living a pipe dream Mike, unless the time frame you are referring to when getting to Kyoto is decades, not years.

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/s...et-kyoto-here-no-point-pretending-we-can.html

The idea that all Canadians have to do is just apply current technology with no capital cost and do normal stuff is not only incorrect, it is irresponsible. It is a fantastic dream sold to us by the Left (not referring to you Mike). The true costs Canadians would have to incur are massive.

So who's willing to live through a Depression so we can hit our Kyoto targets?

 

[PsyOp]

ridiculed the Kyoto accord as a money-sucking socialist scheme

Nice try Harper, Nice try.

Maybe if i wear my cowboys bots now you will listen to me :blob6:

 

[ottawabill]

What Canadians are ignorant about are the costs of Kyoto, which is exactly why the Liberals didn't actually do anything about it.



You're living a pipe dream Mike, unless the time frame you are referring to when getting to Kyoto is decades, not years.

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/s...et-kyoto-here-no-point-pretending-we-can.html

The idea that all Canadians have to do is just apply current technology with no capital cost and do normal stuff is not only incorrect, it is irresponsible. It is a fantastic dream sold to us by the Left (not referring to you Mike). The true costs Canadians would have to incur are massive.

So who's willing to live through a Depression so we can hit our Kyoto targets?

HORRAY!! AND GIVE THAT MAN A CIGAR!!!

First of all, if you can't get China and the U.S. on board it's all for naught.... all it would do is ruin our economy while allowing great ecomonic gains in the U.S. and China....

I do believe we are affecting the climate..it is to the extent that I don't agree....
Us humans have an arogant egotistcal nature, we are alway sure it's all about us..good or bad...

We were not there when the Artic temp rised to tropical levels, but if we were we would have taken the credit for it.... and all stopped driving our cars....

We haven't been around nea long enough to understand earth cycles ..Again I do beleive it's a good idea to slow down our polution of this great earth..just not ready to state we are the only cause of a few hot years...

 

[Tonington]

The most ardent environmentalists might claim the current climate change is 100% anthropogenic, I certainly don't believe that's the case. Seems more like compounding effects to me.

The climate record is nothing without context. What was the seismic activity like during past intense warming trends, how does that relate to current trends, was there an intensification in solar activity outside of the "norm" and finally is our current activity noticable on a global scale. I think it is, something like tipping scales that are allready extended to one end. Climate change is not new, everyone knows that. The relationships between natural phenomena have been playing out for a long time, what's unique to the current situation is the Earth now has a species capable of influence that is unparalleled. Extinctions, biodiversity loss, ecological disaster, transmission of alien species, microbial tampering, the list is long where causality is well known now. I think it's presumptuous to think that we can't also be affecting climate, and indeed the climate scientists are drawing that same conclusion.

 

[MMMike]

The thing is, we have a tremendous amount of information about earth cycles, going back hundreds of thousands of years. They've taken Antarctic ice cores that go back an estimated 650,000 years. From that record they can get all kinds of useful information such as CO2 concentration, volcanic activity, even temperature (from the relative concentrations of different oxygen isotopes). We've known about natural sun cycles for decades. It's not as if scientists are making conclusions based solely on the recorded recent history.

 

[PsyOp]

What Canadians are ignorant about are the costs of Kyoto, which is exactly why the Liberals didn't actually do anything about it.

You're living a pipe dream Mike, unless the time frame you are referring to when getting to Kyoto is decades, not years.

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/s...et-kyoto-here-no-point-pretending-we-can.html

The idea that all Canadians have to do is just apply current technology with no capital cost and do normal stuff is not only incorrect, it is irresponsible. It is a fantastic dream sold to us by the Left (not referring to you Mike). The true costs Canadians would have to incur are massive.

So who's willing to live through a Depression so we can hit our Kyoto targets?

If the right was not manipulated by the oil master, we wouldn't be in this situation.
I agree that everybody is free, i also agree that Bush is right in what he say, but we need to get SANE and understand this will lead us to a total planet destruction. Kyoto is a good thing, even if they didn't accept it, 20% in 10 years is a good start but i want more than that. I think i'm gonna give my support to Hilary.

Now that we know this, don't tell me a depression would be because of the left but because of the insane right. And since we here, you don't want a depression but you want a war(iraq)? Ignorance or hypocrisy?

 

[ottawabill]

If the right was not manipulated by the oil master, we wouldn't be in this situation.
I agree that everybody is free, i also agree that Bush is right in what he say, but we need to get SANE and understand this will lead us to a total planet destruction. Kyoto is a good thing, even if they didn't accept it, 20% in 10 years is a good start but i want more than that. I think i'm gonna give my support to Hilary.

Now that we know this, don't tell me a depression would be because of the left but because of the insane right. And since we here, you don't want a depression but you want a war(iraq)? Ignorance or hypocrisy?

ahh...I never knew it was only the right who drove cars... heated with oil, or bought anything that was deliveried by a truck....learn something new everyday...

 

[PsyOp]

ahh...I never knew it was only the right who drove cars... heated with oil, or bought anything that was deliveried by a truck....learn something new everyday...

I don't think you get the point. Who let that oil crazyness go that far? Surely not the left.
We are so dependent of oil now because of the insane right that we can't reduce our usage.
*Bravo*

Canada can do it, we have no problem at all with kyoto. The only reason why we deny it is because the U.S(bush) want our help.

Lets start to write history correctly :angel7:

 

[jjaycee98]

Even many Environmentalist see Kyoto as way too expensive for the results it would bring. Mr. Harper is being critisized for cancelling the Liberal ideas and then doing those things under another name. Not a problem to me. Libs have been stealing ideas from others for years. I say if it is a good idea then the guy who thought it up should be applauded and recognized for the service to his country.

Britain, Germany and the US backed off from Income Trusts long before our Government did. One of the reasons was that companies would not be able to save for a down turn in their Earnings(If they had to pay out earnings each year and hope that they would have Investors for the next year of operation) and you would see mass Bankruptsys of small companies.

No one seems to be commenting on how much the 1% GST savings is impacting their lives. My company and those I work with see a difference. Again we all think we can spentd our money wizely and with more to show for it than sending it to be wasted in Ottowa.

I also like the $100 to Mom's of small children. I have dealt with people fighting over who gets the kids just because of the CTB. Lots of people living Common-Law file "single" and get CTB. I think it was better when everyone got it and then settled up at Tax time. The really BIzarre thing is that you can make huge money, make a large RRSP contribution and get your taxable income down to where you qualify for CTB. One Tax return I did had $104,000 income, single mom, 2 kids. $20,000 RRSP got her $11 per month CTB. Two parent family both working at $40,000 each will not get CTB.

 

[Tonington]

The 1% GST cut was bad for our country, good politics for Harper. $4,500,000,000 works out to a mean of about $150 per person, so 41 cents a day. That money could be used much more effectively by doing things like a) extending the program aimed at reducing wait times for 5 procedures to a broader area of medical procedures, b) funding education so that university graduates will be able to make real income much quicker after they graduate, c) better funding to the disabled and elderly Canadians, d) offsetting the economic hurt that initiatives like Kyoto might produce, e) modernizing our military with new equipment, the list is long where that money could be used more effectively. The conservative motto is always that more money in our pockets means we can take care of ourselves better. I actually save mcuh less than 41 cents per day, not enough to help me with options a or b, that is certain.