The town of Herouxville, Que., wants immigrants that fit in with its citizens

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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the thing is, we cant force muslim men to say "you can drive" because the law already provides that they can. If their man says "you must not drive" they have a choice available to them. They can either risk the wrath of their man (who will be punished if he does anything he shouldnt) and drive anyway, or they can decide not to drive, to please their man. If it were me i think i'd take the car and drive somewhere remote, start a new life.


So what is the problem with this? They don't target any group, but they lay it out very clearly they will not pass laws forbidding people from driving (and if you think all domestic abuse gets reported your nuts), they will not pass laws to segregate children based on gender, and they will not let you decide which police officers you will let arrest you.

Which of those statements is wrong? If Muslims feels this targets them why? Are they doing any of these things? and if they are..doesn't that justify this being passed?

And if they aren't, who cares..its like someone passing a law saying you may not shove mustard in your eyes for the purposes of gambling. It doesn't affect me so what do I care?
 

Sparrow

Council Member
Nov 12, 2006
1,202
23
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Quebec
This town is reflecting what a lot of people are thinking. I am a Quebecer, I was raised and educated in English, and even if the English language has been restricted here it has not stopped me from living in English, raising and educating our son in English. We didn't die when this happened and neither will anybody else. What people are afraid of is that they will change our country with all their demands. Other ethnic groups have come to Canada and have adapted to living like everyone else. Also there have been a few insidents here in Quebec with Muslins and Hesidic Jews that shows how far SOME not all of them will go. If we moved to their countries we sure as hell would be obliged to live by their rules or suffer the consequences, so why can they not come to our country and live like us. How they live in their private homes (except abuse of rights) is none of our business. Outside of their homes they need to conform to our ways.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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Newfoundland!
So what is the problem with this? They don't target any group, but they lay it out very clearly they will not pass laws forbidding people from driving (and if you think all domestic abuse gets reported your nuts), they will not pass laws to segregate children based on gender, and they will not let you decide which police officers you will let arrest you.

Which of those statements is wrong? If Muslims feels this targets them why? Are they doing any of these things? and if they are..doesn't that justify this being passed?

And if they aren't, who cares..its like someone passing a law saying you may not shove mustard in your eyes for the purposes of gambling. It doesn't affect me so what do I care?

i suppose really the only objection i have is that it was unneccesary to state that women can drive and mustnt be stoned. these are both clear in the legal system. Because of this redundancy it seems obvious to whom the instructions are directed and hence seems a lot like ****-stirring.

as for domestic abuse not being reported i take a hard line on this. If you don't report it you can't expect any help. Police and other agencies cannot read minds or invade houses to catch the bastards who do these things. abused women need to either put up with what they get or stand up for themselves. the support networks are available to those willing to be brave.
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
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windsor,ontario
This town is reflecting what a lot of people are thinking. I am a Quebecer, I was raised and educated in English, and even if the English language has been restricted here it has not stopped me from living in English, raising and educating our son in English. We didn't die when this happened and neither will anybody else. What people are afraid of is that they will change our country with all their demands. Other ethnic groups have come to Canada and have adapted to living like everyone else. Also there have been a few insidents here in Quebec with Muslins and Hesidic Jews that shows how far SOME not all of them will go. If we moved to their countries we sure as hell would be obliged to live by their rules or suffer the consequences, so why can they not come to our country and live like us. How they live in their private homes (except abuse of rights) is none of our business. Outside of their homes they need to conform to our ways.

i agree. i dont think they should be allowed to wear those silly clotes either. i always feel sorry for little girls i see with their heads covered. its cruel.
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
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windsor,ontario
I understand the concern, but I wonder if sometimes we are reacting in such a fashion because of the events in the Middle East. After all, not all that long ago our country tried to keep out non-whites for much the same reasons.

i also was reading that in canada we didnt really want non-christians coming in, like jews or whatever.
 

jackd

Nominee Member
Nov 23, 2004
91
0
6
Montreal
Herouxville's thing is not a by-law, not a law, not even a rule.
It is a simple code of conduct, a declaration of what are the values of the village.
No enforcement, no fine, no legal obligations.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
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Oshawa ON
Well, for one thing the town's getting national attention. Free. And I wouldn't doubt it's spilling across the border as well. Some key American network evening opinion shows are caught in the throes of anti-Muslim rhetoric at the moment. H is arriving just at the right time.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Well, for one thing the town's getting national attention. Free. And I wouldn't doubt it's spilling across the border as well. Some key American network evening opinion shows are caught in the throes of anti-Muslim rhetoric at the moment. H is arriving just at the right time.

Good point. i had the strangest experience with Muslims yesterday, almost as if they wanted to confirm what some of the people here have been writting!

A Muslim man and wife came to see me to complain about the fact that they are not able to enroll their son in the local Catholic grade school. This is the school I pastor. Anyway, even when I explained that entrance into an Ontario Catholic grade school is confined only to Roman Catholic children, or children of a Roman Catholic parent, they insisted this was discrimination and are threatening to sue the Roman Catholic Seperate School Board.

Very odd, in my opinion.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Just saw this write up from the BBC - probaby just a rehash but posting it anyway to compare...


[SIZE=+1]BBC: No stoning, Canada migrants told ~ immigrants shocked....[/SIZE]
BBC ^| Wednesday, 31 January 2007, 10:09 GMT | BBC Staff


Herouxville has one immigrant family in its 1,300 population


Don't stone women to death, burn them or circumcise them, immigrants wishing to live in the town of Herouxville in Quebec, Canada, have been told.
The rules come in a new town council declaration on culture that Muslims have branded shocking and insulting.

Quebec is in the midst of a huge debate on integrating immigrant cultures.
Montreal police are investigating an officer who wrote a song called That's Enough Already, which says immigrants are undermining Quebec culture.
'Not racist'
Herouxville, which has one immigrant family in its population of about 1,300, is 160km (100 miles) north-east of Montreal.
Its council published the new rules on the town's website.



I was shocked and insulted to see these kinds of false stereotypes and ignorance about Islam and our religion

Salam Elmenyawi,
Muslim Council of Montreal


"We wish to inform these new arrivals that the way of life which they abandoned when they left their countries of origin cannot be recreated here," the declaration reads.
"We consider it completely outside norms to... kill women by stoning them in public, burning them alive, burning them with acid, circumcising them etc."
It points out that women are allowed to drive, vote, dance and own their own homes.
The rules ban Sikh children from carrying ceremonial daggers to school, even though the Supreme Court has ruled they can.
The man behind the declaration, councillor Andre Drouin, told the National Post newspaper the rules were not racist.
"We invite people from all nationalities, all languages, all sexual orientations, whatever, to come live with us, but we want them to know ahead of time how we live," he said.

Mr Drouin said there had been a number of recent incidents of culture clashes that meant the new rules were needed.
In one a Toronto judge ordered a Christmas tree removed from a court so as not to offend non-Christians. In another a Montreal gym installed frosted windows after a Hasidic synagogue complained the sight of adults exercising was offensive.

Mr Drouin said most e-mails were supportive of the new declaration


However, the president of the Muslim Council of Montreal, Salam Elmenyawi, condemned the council, saying it had set back race relations decades.
He told Reuters news agency: "I was shocked and insulted to see these kinds of false stereotypes and ignorance about Islam and our religion."
A poll in a Montreal newspaper this month revealed that 59% of Quebecers admitted to some kind of racist feelings.
Montreal police are considering disciplinary action against the 37-year-old officer who wrote the song urging immigrants in Quebec to assimilate.

The song includes the lines: "We want to accept ethnics, but not at any price... if you're not happy with your fate, there's a place called the airport."
Police spokesman Yan Lafreniere said the song did not uphold the values of the Montreal police force and that the officer would be questioned as to his motives.
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
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34
windsor,ontario
i dont get whay muslims want to come here anyway. they get here and than complain about our morals and the way our people are. one of ouyr neighbours is muslim and the wife is always yapping at my mom about "loose canadian women". i wish theyd stay home/
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
18
34
windsor,ontario
Good point. i had the strangest experience with Muslims yesterday, almost as if they wanted to confirm what some of the people here have been writting!

A Muslim man and wife came to see me to complain about the fact that they are not able to enroll their son in the local Catholic grade school. This is the school I pastor. Anyway, even when I explained that entrance into an Ontario Catholic grade school is confined only to Roman Catholic children, or children of a Roman Catholic parent, they insisted this was discrimination and are threatening to sue the Roman Catholic Seperate School Board.

Very odd, in my opinion.

typical. they come here and were supposed to change our customs and ways to suit them.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
i dont get whay muslims want to come here anyway. they get here and than complain about our morals and the way our people are. one of ouyr neighbours is muslim and the wife is always yapping at my mom about "loose canadian women". i wish theyd stay home/


Well, of course there will be a period in which Muslim immigrants will be settling in and getting used to us, and we to them. By the time their grandchildren are born, these grandchildren will be totally Canadian and the "problems" with Muslims all over.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
18
St. John's
they dont really need to insist upon not stoning women, as that in itself would be a crime. and preventing a woman from driving would be dodgy too, after all how would u do it? She's allowed by law to get a lisence and a car, the only way you can stop her is by physically forcing her which would be assault or imprisonment.

If someone tells someone else not to do something (like driving a car) it's their business to say "i'm allowed to do that, and you can't stop me"


I don't see anything wrong with posting a reminder that certain things are not allowed in our country. People always assume that immigrants will toss out their sharia law mindsets and embrace secular liberalism as soon as they step into canada, but it's far from the truth. We've had enough "honour" killings among canadian immigrants to prove that not every would be Canadian holds Canadian values.

Hooray for Heureuxville
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
Sanctus, recent studies indicate the children of non-traditional immigrants are not doing well at assimilating or fitting in. It is wishful thinking to assume everyone is the same at integration. As we've seen in Europe, Muslims especially like to stay segregated and like to maintain old belief systems and rituals. Not a positive start on a great multicultural future for the West.
But one that should have been anticipated. That is the job of policy makers. They've really screwed up.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
18
St. John's
Well, of course there will be a period in which Muslim immigrants will be settling in and getting used to us, and we to them. By the time their grandchildren are born, these grandchildren will be totally Canadian and the "problems" with Muslims all over.


Actually, with the breeding rate of Canadians compared to Muslim immigrants, the muslim grandchildren won't need to be Canadian. Canada will be totally Arabic. Homework assignement for you:

Find out what "Ummah" means.
Find out how many Canadian muslim youth (16-24)support Sharia law in this country, as opposed to their parents (40)
Find out how, and why, Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion.
Find the definition of "Dhimmi" and how Dhimmitude is applied in Islamic societies.

Have fun, and either grow a beard or start petitioning for tougher immigration laws.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
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Newfoundland!
I don't see anything wrong with posting a reminder that certain things are not allowed in our country. People always assume that immigrants will toss out their sharia law mindsets and embrace secular liberalism as soon as they step into canada, but it's far from the truth. We've had enough "honour" killings among canadian immigrants to prove that not every would be Canadian holds Canadian values.

Hooray for Heureuxville

you're suggesting that when a muslim immigrates to canada they might "forget" that murder is illegal here?
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Where can we get a copy of the document passed by the Council in that town?

A small town defends its local customs


Brigitte Pellerin, The Ottawa Citizen

Published: Tuesday, January 30, 2007
How does the old saying go? Ah, yes. Some people are so open-minded their brains have fallen out. For instance the sophisticated "experts" who denounced the small Quebec town of Herouxville for publishing a set of communal norms that include refraining from stoning women in public places.
Perhaps you missed the news: The Canadian Press report published in a few English-speaking newspapers on Sunday (the French-speaking media were, unsurprisingly, more comprehensive in their coverage). It said "Herouxville, about 165 km northeast of Montreal, passed a document at a town council meeting this month that outlines what it considers to be its official behavioural norms. The document, sent to both the provincial and federal governments, states that 'a woman can ... drive a car, sign cheques, dance, decide on her own.'" And that "covering one's face other than on Halloween, burning women alive or burning them with acid is not considered acceptable."
There are also rules stating that men and women can be treated by health professionals of either gender, that children can eat meat without having to know how the beast was killed and by whom, that toward the end of the year folks enjoy Christmas festivities, and that adults are allowed to drink alcohol in public.
In fact, these are not "rules" so much as a list of the locals' accepted customs, drawn up by city councillors on behalf of the town's residents to reflect the results of a public opinion survey. (You can find the document, including a clumsy English translation, at municipalite.herouxville.qc.ca under "avis public.") These people may be hicks -- Herouxville's coat of arms proudly features a bright red tractor -- but they're not stupid.
They know their norms have no legal standing. They're doing it to make a point, to stress that as far as they're concerned, there is a huge difference between welcoming immigrants from all over and welcoming the bad habits most immigrants are trying to leave behind. As Councillor Andre Drouin explained, "We have to ensure that people who come here want to live like us." Live like us, mark you, not look like us.
True, Herouxville has very few immigrants. It's rather out of the way, somewhere north of Grand-Mere -- itself not exactly located at the centre of the universe. But just because there aren't problems now doesn't mean there can't ever be any. Who would have thought England would be home to imams who openly say, in plain English, that "Allah has created the woman deficient," that if a woman "doesn't wear hijab we hit her" and that homosexuals ought to be thrown off mountains? Yet as Channel 4's program Dispatches showed, that's exactly what's happening, in mosques Tony Blair praised as moderate. (Look for "Dispatches: Undercover Mosque" on Google Video and prepare to be horrified.)
Are the good citizens of Herouxville overreacting? A bit. Are these norms enforceable? Some aren't, of course. Others are, but not at a municipal level. I'm pretty sure it's illegal under the federal criminal code to throw acid in someone's face or to perform what is euphemistically known as "female circumcision." What the people of Herouxville are doing is proudly declaring where they stand.
Are they guilty of racism, bigotry and intolerance, as many commentators huffily assert? No. Real bigotry is saying those of another religion, culture, or race necessarily support stoning women in public places.
According to the hundreds of e-mails the municipality has received, many of which are posted on its website, folks from all across the province are congratulating Herouxville officials for daring to say out loud what many are secretly thinking. It's about time, many write, that Quebec culture be protected, too. Not so the experts. La Presse quoted a Universite de Montreal official shocked to find preconceived ideas still present despite all the debates on "reasonable accommodation," a woman from something called the "Comite ecoles et communaute" (no idea what it does) saying the government ought not to take this incident lightly, and the president of the "Comite consultatif sur l'integration et l'accommodement raisonnable en milieu scolaire" (ditto) who did the obligatory criticizing of the media for the benefit of the media.
The paper also quoted prominent lawyer Jean-Claude Hebert saying that "The norms go against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and are therefore unconstitutional."
Whoa. I hope you were holding onto your bonnet. Do we really have in this country a constitutional right to stone women? Why weren't we told?
It will be interesting to see how politicians react. Let's hope they at least keep their brains safely inside their heads.
Brigitte Pellerin's column appears Tuesday and Thursday.
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
670
11
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you're suggesting that when a muslim immigrates to canada they might "forget" that murder is illegal here?
Don't know about that, but I for one am suggesting our government should put a cap on just how many are coming over. We have enough now, please and thank you!