Call for a Peaceful End to Zionism

gopher

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So you are saying the IDF are socialists? Or just have some socialist ideas? Or they are zionists? I bet there are some in the IDF that aren't even Jewish.

Anyway, it sounds to me like zionism dwindled down to not much of anything after 1948, and here we are 60 years later .......


While the IDF evolved from the socialist Haganah, it no longer is exclusively Marxist. People from all political parties are included. The only ones who are excluded are conscientious objectors (the Bible specifically allows that exemption) and others such as Orthodox Jewish women.

You are correct in that certain IDF members are not Jewish. Druze and Circassians are not, though women from these groups cannot be conscripted. I believe Arabs are also exempt from conscription.

```Zionism dwindled down after 1948```

Not so. Starting from 1949 to about 1960, immigration of Sephardic Jews from North Africa and Yemen increased significantly. Then in the early part of the 60s immigration from Eastern Europe began.

In fact immigration accelerated from 1970s-1990s from Russia as laws were made to encourage transfers of Ashkenazim Jews there. This is because the Arab population has been increasing while many Jews immigrated to New York, Miami, and Los Angeles. However, much of that immigration from Russia has stopped as they do not want to be conscripted into the IDF. In the 1980s, Falashas (Ethiopian Jews) were allowed to immigrate there and were subjected to conscription.

It appears as if immigration to Israel has finally slowed down significantly and this is likely due to conscription.

''Zionism'' as defined by Herzl meant establishment of a Jewish 'homeland'. As such, it cannot be said to be dwindling. True, immigration is declining but the zionist ideology remains.
 

L Gilbert

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Well, as the Jews seem to think that anywhere on the planet can be their homeland, I can't see them being any different than anyone else. And if you refer to Israel as their homeland, It has been established, so the zionism was successful. Then you explain with dates and all that that immigration increased. That doesn't mean zionism increased because later you distinguish between the two.
 

Zzarchov

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And what is wrong with increased Immigration Gopher? A country has a right to allow as much immigration as it wants.

Are you forgetting how Immigration in Canada works? Are you saying its wrong to allow Immigrants into Canada and further marginalize the native population?

I don't think so.
 

CDNBear

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Still nothing to prove Zionism is still at work today. Considering the UN mandated and thus created Israel, does that make the UN Zionist? I doubt it.

I am glad to see that gopher recognized his error with regards to what Kibbutzim is. Marxism, not Stalinist communism.

Still though, a whole lot of paper theories on Zionism floating around.

I wonder why only juan answered the question on the hypocracy of the deniers of Israel and their presence on Native lands???
 

gopher

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```That doesn't mean zionism increased```

Zionism is an ideology. Initially it said to be a creation of a homeland for thse injured by European repression such as Russian, Polish, and German pograms. It expanded, not contracted, when Jews of other ethnic origins were allowed into the UN created nation. It cannot be said to have diminished because immigrants of diverse origins were now solicited.


```what is wrong with increased Immigration Gopher?```

Sorry, I do not recall saying in that post that there is anything wrong with immigration. Can you point to any specific language in which I said that?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

While I oppose Zionism because, contrary to its professed claims, it does NOT have biblical basis {Acts 1:6,7 of the New Testament} and because of its socialist origins, I have previously conceded that the zionist state was sanctioned by the UN. As subscribers to the UN Charter we in the USA are therefore obligated to accept it.

Therefore, I again say that the ideal way to stop the troubles there is for a one state solution where citizen is recognized for each resident and everyone gets a vote. In one generation, Arab Muslims will be the majority and this will bring about the reform needed to bring about peace. And again, contrary to what some of you want to believe, there are a great many Arabs who do want the one state solution.


 

Zzarchov

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well you talk about "transfers" of Jews like a bad thing.


As for the one state solution, no doubt they want that. Im sure most of Mexico would love a one state solution with America too, America Doesn't.

That you view the neccessity for peace that Israel must be majority muslim, shows you think Jewish people are inferior. Why else would you require Muslims to rule the country for peace? The only other option is the whole thing is about taking over and expelling the Jewish population from their homes (or enslaving them as second class citizens, or rather trying to and starting another version of lebannon).

Why on earth should they help with that?

Best solution, wall off whatever Israel wants, make everyone in that wall Israel, and tell Palestine to go have fun, its problem since it likes to fight so much. If they shoot you, carpet bomb them in accordance with the rules of War.

Its not Israel's duty to be nice to its aggressors, nor is it anyone elses duty to be nice to Israel.
 

earth_as_one

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The wall is land grab. Its part of Israel's plan to annex as much of Palestine as it can and force the remaining Palestinians into walled in compounds which are little more than concentration camps.

Anyone who believes Israel is not an agressor in this conflict is misinformed. Even Israeli Defense Force soldiers admit they kill people without cause.

Breaking the Silence
IDF soldiers speak out

Since our discharge from the army, we all feel that we have become different. We feel that service in the occupied territories and the incidents we faced have distorted and harmed the moral values on which we grew up.
We all agree that as long as Israeli society keeps sending its best people to military combat service in the occupied territories, it is extremely important that all of us, Israeli citizens, know the price which the generation who is fighting in the territories is paying, the impossible situations it is facing, the insanity it is confronting everyday, and the heavy burden it bears after being discharged from the IDF – a heavy burden that hasn’t left us.

That’s why we decided to break the silence, because it’s time to tell.
Time to tell about everything that goes on there each and every day.

We all served in the territories. Some served in Gaza, some in Hebron, some in Bethlehem and the rest served in other places. We all manned checkpoints, participated in patrols and arrests and took part in the war against terror.
We all realized that the daily struggle against terror and the daily interaction with the civilian population has left us helpless. Our sense of justice was distorted, and so were our morality and emotions.

The reality we experienced was made of:
Innocent civilians being hurt,
Kids not going to school because of the curfew,
and parents who can’t bring food home because they can’t go to work.

This reality has stayed us and will not go away. After discharge from the army, we decided that we shouldn’t go on. We shouldn’t forget what we ourselves did and what we witnessed. We decided to break the silence.

Our first initiative was the exhibition.
The “Breaking the Silence- Fighters Tell about Hebron” exhibition grew out of our will to show at home what we had never shown before. For the first time, we opened a window to the world of soldiers serving in Hebron. The reaction was overwhelming. Thousands came to see the exhibition: citizens, members of parliament, and perhaps most important – soldiers and their families.

We began to investigate, interview and document hundreds of former combat soldiers. All this was done under guarantee of full confidentiality to all those who contact us in order to testify. The amount of testimonies we have gathered proves time and again that it is not a matter of “exceptional cases” or “stray weeds”. It is a dangerous phenomenon growing from day to day. Things that were once exceptional have become the norm. Israeli society must know the price it is paying for every soldier serving in the occupied territories. Israeli society must realize the trap we are caught in, because while the army is trying to deal with the threat posed by terror, it is creating a disaster.

We are discharged soldiers who have decided not to keep silent.
To stop keeping to ourselves everything we’ve been through in the past 3 years.
So far, hundreds of discharged combat soldiers have decided to break the silence and every day more people follow.

During our combat service we’ve handled many different missions. We have one mission left: to talk, tell and not keep anything hidden....

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about_e.asp

How many Israelis did Palestinians kill this week?

This Week in Palestine - Week 4 January 2007
Friday January 26, 2007

The Israeli army kills four residents in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, while civil unrest leaves six dead and at least fifteen injured in the Gaza Strip. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert issues a building permit for a synagogue at the doorstep of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. These stories and more...
http://www.imemc.org/article/46723

How much more land did Palestinians annex this week?

250,000 Palestinians fenced in, says report

Separation fence closes off 21 Palestinian enclaves, some completely cut off Ali waked Published: 01.22.07, 12:24

Some 250,000 Palestinians have been closed off from the rest of the West Bank by the separation fence, according to a report released by "Bimkom - Planners for Planning Rights" human rights organization...

...in some cases the situation is such that single homes are disconnected from the towns they belong to, turning their residents into "guests" in their own homes.


"This forms a horrible situation in which a man living in his home for decades is forced to get a periodic permit in order to be in the area were he lives. Without this permit, he is subject to the penalties of the law – up to five years in prison or a heavy fine," the report said.


Regarding medical issues, the report showed that: "In order to reach hospitals in nearby towns, the enclaves' residents must pass through the fence's gates, which is not possible during the nighttime, meaning that the time passing before soldiers are called in an emergency could be the difference between life and death."


Route dictated by settlements
The report also stated that despite the High Court of Justice's ruling on the fence's route, it is still very much dictated by the settlements' needs.

The report gives an example of the Palestinian village Bartaa, where the route of the Fence was changed by three kilometers (about 1.8 miles) beyond the Green Line, mainly in order to give room for the expansion of the Jewish settlement Rihan, and the construction of a new settlement called "Rihanit".


Bimkom activist, architect Alon Cohen-Lipschitz said that the route of the Fence was decided with total disregard to the Palestinian residents...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3355396,00.html

How many Syngogues have Palestinians desecrated?

..."For 900 years we have lived here under Turkish, British, Jordanian and Israeli governments, and no one has ever stopped people coming to pray. It is scandalous." The words of Father Claudio Ghilardi of the Santa Marta Monastery on the southern slope of the Mount of Olives, the juncture of Jerusalem, Abu Dis and Al-Izariyah (Bethany) where I visited in July. The church, named for St. Martha of Bethany, is now empty. Two Thousand Palestinian Catholics have lost their place of worship and spiritual center.

Why?

Israel is building a 30-foot concrete Wall through the monastery grounds; the church is now on the Jerusalem side. Many of the faithful live on the other side in Bethany and Abu Dis which means they can not get to the church because most do not have and can not get permits to enter Jerusalem. Father Claudio says, "This is not a barrier. It is a border. Why don't they speak the truth?" Countering Sharon's argument that the Wall is to keep Palestinian suicide bombers from Israel, Father Claudio adds, "The Wall is not separating Palestinians from Jews; rather, Palestinians from Palestinians."...

http://www.vtjp.org/background/wallreport4.htm

How many Israeli homes are invaded regularly by armed Palestinians.

Did your home ever become a conduit, a bridge, a shortcut for strangers? This is what has happened in my home,” says Hisham Idris. He and his family of four live in Hebron in the occupied West Bank and those that are passing through are Israeli settlers from the Kiryat Arba Settlement.

Hebron settlers



Despite the serious sensitivity for Palestinians in the region who are the victims of frequent settler attacks while Israeli forces confiscate land for the Wall and settlement expansion, and both have literally attacked children on their way to school, the settlers seem unconcerned. None of these problems negatively affect them.
PNN sat down with the Idris family in their home to talk about what was happening. Hisham Idris leaves home at 7:00 am everyday, except Fridays, and does not return until sunset. He earns 200 shekels per week. His wife, Umm Mohammad, stays at home with eight year old Mohammad, six year old Musab, and the two and a half year old baby.

The home is simply furnished with a small television and sofa in the room located between the front and rear doors, leaving ample room for the nearly daily passage of settlers.

Umm Mohammad said, “I remember when it happened the first time. It was over a year ago. My kids were playing in the courtyard and I was doing chores, cooking and cleaning, and suddenly I heard voices inside the house in a strange dialect. I do not understand Hebrew but it was so loud I knew that was the language. When I looked around this room, where we're sitting right now, I could not believe my eyes. Groups of Israeli settlers carrying weapons and different sizes of rifles were entering the back door in tides and going out the front. I felt I had lost my mind. I could not scream or move. I didn't do anything at all.”

http://www.imemc.org/article/46642

Shameful.
 

CDNBear

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While I oppose Zionism because, contrary to its professed claims,
I'm not sure where you got that from. I can not recall anyone saying Zionism is mentioned in the bible.
Therefore, I again say that the ideal way to stop the troubles there is for a one state solution where citizen is recognized for each resident and everyone gets a vote. In one generation, Arab Muslims will be the majority and this will bring about the reform needed to bring about peace. And again, contrary to what some of you want to believe, there are a great many Arabs who do want the one state solution.
I highly dount that peace would be the outcome. There may very well be a great many Arabs that wish for the one state solution, but as you pointed out, they would become the majority and the Jews would once again become subjugated and thus left exposed to the whims of the Arabs. Whom to date, have not expressed much in the way of wanting to co-exist, but rather eliminate the Jewish presence.




The wall is land grab. Its part of Israel's plan to annex as much of Palestine as it can and force the remaining Palestinians into walled in compounds which are little more than concentration camps.

Anyone who believes Israel is not an agressor in this conflict is misinformed. Even Israeli Defense Force soldiers admit they kill people without cause.
Speaking of 'mis-informed', if this is all about a "land grab", why did Israel return the oil rich Sinai???

A question I have asked several times, with no answers.
Shameful.
Yes it is shameful, when opinion is spewed as fact.
 

L Gilbert

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The forum is the "International Politics" forum.

Um, someone asked if Palestines kill Israelis (or something like that) a few posts ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6149418.stm

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/16429529.htm

You'd think the daft buggers would give up and find another spot to live in instead of lobbing the odd rocket into Israelis and provoking them more.
At least I'd have sens enough to find another campsite if some goober was beating on me constantly. I sure as hell wouldn't provoke him.
 

gopher

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That you view the neccessity for peace that Israel must be majority muslim, shows you think Jewish people are inferior.

Jeez, that's a new one. Inferior? To what???

A Muslim majority would compel the Zionist government to impose needed reforms so that peace could prevail. At any rate it's better than what we have today. It's also a good bet that once Muslims become the majority, the UN will finally force it to conform to the UN Resolutions that it has repeatedly violated.

One observation: you refer to Jewish people by using a capitol letter but write muslim with a small letter. Could it be that you feel they are inferior? :wink:
 

vinod1975

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The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood,” said British economist John Maynard Keynes. “Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air,” he continued, “are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back.” :)
 

Zzarchov

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Seeing as I capitalized them the second time, its fairly safe to say its a typo Gopher.

And what is special about a Muslim Majority Exactly?

If not to punish the Jewish Population, why on earth would they make peace? If they became the majority they would be a first world nation in terms of wealth. Especially after the expelled the Jewish Population (human nature after an oppressed group siezes power, look at the Sunni/Shia problems in Iraq). You really think they would let their impoverished refugee neighbours in to take a share of the pie? Look at how Native Tribes with Casino or Mineral wealth treat their lost brethren who attempt to return.

Fat chance. That you think its the fact that Israel is majority Jewish instead of Muslim thats the problem is pretty flat out bigotry, even if you don't fully realise it.
 

vinod1975

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Politics

The End of Zionism?


Roland Rance

In a recent article in Israel’s leading daily, Ha’Aretz, two veteran activists independently reach the same conclusion: that there is no longer any possibility of a two-state resolution of the Palestinian-Israel conflict. They argue that the only acceptable solution is the return of Palestine refugees, the abrogation of Israel’s Law of Return, and the establishment of a bi-national state in the whole of Palestine. [1]
Haim Hanegbi, one of the founders in the 1960s of Matzpen, the anti-Zionist, Israeli Socialist Organisation, had wholeheartedly supported the Oslo agreement, to such an extent that he even joined the Israel Labour Party. Now, he says:
Everyone with eyes to see and ears to hear has to understand that only a bi-national partnership can save us. . . Israel as a Jewish state can no longer exist here. . . If Israel remains a colonialist state in its character, it will not survive . . . The attempt to achieve Jewish sovereignty that is fenced in and insular has to be abandoned. [2]
Meron Benvenisti, a founder of the liberal, anti-occupation, Meretz party, was for many years deputy mayor of Jerusalem - something that would be inconceivable today, with the huge growth in Jewish fundamentalism in the city. He argues that,
In fact, even today, we are living a bi-national reality, and it is a permanent given.. The basic story here is not one of two national movements that are confronting each other; the basic story is that of natives and settlers. . . this country will not tolerate a border in its midst. . . What we have to do is to try to reach a situation of personal and collective equality within the framework of one overall regime throughout the country. [3]
Although they come from different corners of the political spectrum, Hanegbi and Benvenisti have some common political and social background. Crucially, both are in their seventies, and grew up in Jerusalem as a multicultural and undivided city before the partition of Palestine. They are both more concerned with the nature of the society in which they live than in its borders, and the article is a convincing rejoinder to the mainstream Israeli politicians in the recent Guardian debate on two states, in which both participants ignore even the theoretical possibility of a bi-national approach. [4]
The positions advanced by Hanegbi and Benvenisti will not be new to readers of Socialist Outlook. They point out the expansion of Israeli settlements, the obscenity of the apartheid wall, the centrality of the Palestinian right to return, the ecological and economic unity of the region, and the obvious truth that Israel has no intention of enabling the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state. Indeed, these insights are not even uncommon in Israel, and have for decades informed the positions of the small (but growing) number of radical activists. What is new, and significant, is the fact that these arguments, long treated as eccentric and beyond the pale, are becoming recognised as legitimate and serious contributions to the public debate in Israel. While not yet mainstream, they can no longer be disregarded.
It is not hard to see why, as the Oslo agreement collapses amid the barbarism of Israel’s onslaught against the Palestinian people. The shortcomings of this agreement were apparent from the start: the Palestinians were to give up any hope of return of the refugees, or even meaningful compensation, in return for a very limited autonomy in a de-militarised and divided fraction of Palestine. They would have no rule in even part of Jerusalem, Israeli settlements would not be removed, and Israel would not end its massive exploitation of Palestinian water. Even under the most favourable of circumstances, Oslo could not have brought an end to the conflict.
In any case, successive Israeli governments have made it clear that they have no intention of honouring the letter or spirit of Oslo. Even Yitzhak Rabin, who was assassinated by a settler after he signed the agreement, repeatedly reneged on commitments and failed to honour promises. His successors (with the exception of Shimon Peres, who was briefly Prime Minister following Rabin’s murder) all opposed the agreement at the time, and have done their best to ensure its failure. Since the Oslo agreement, Israeli settlements have doubled in number and population, while their size has increased massively. Palestinians in the 1967-occupied territories have been under almost constant curfew, their economy has collapsed, and child malnutrition has soared.
Ehud Barak’s so-called ‘generous offer’ at Camp David was nothing of the kind; as Gush Shalom, of the Israeli Peace Bloc, notes, this offer ‘left the Palestinians able only to tortuously navigate throughout 17.6% of their historic homeland . . . it is a humiliating demand for surrender’. And this contempt continues. Israel’s response to the latest ‘road map proposals’ from the US was to issue a list of fourteen ‘reservations’, spelling out that there would be no return of refugees, no Palestinian autonomy in Jerusalem, no Palestinian army, and that there would be ‘Israeli control over the entry and exit of all persons and cargo, as well as of its air space and electromagnetic spectrum’.
The Right of Return

Although it is clear that Israeli intransigence fatally undermined the Oslo agreement, it would be a mistake to suppose that the agreement would have resolved the conflict, even if Israel’s leaders had genuinely acted to do so. In the first place, the agreement failed to address the concerns of most Palestinians. For some - those living under Israeli military rule in the West Bank and Gaza - it would have offered some immediate improvement, with the removal of Israeli forces from everyday control over a large part of the territory. Even for these Palestinians, the improvement would have been limited, since they would have few resources and an impoverished population, with no access to sources of income, employment or markets beyond their borders. Additionally, 1.5 million residents of the occupied territories - about half the total population - are refugees expelled from their homes, towns and villages in Israel, who would not be allowed to return, but would be expected to accept their exile and settle permanently where they now live.
Implementation of the Oslo agreement would have been particularly problematic for Palestinians living in Jerusalem, illegally annexed by Israel following its conquest in 1967. Most of them have refused Israeli citizenship and maintained their Palestinian identity cards. There was great fear that they would be compelled to choose between taking Israeli citizenship, or moving to the Palestinian ‘state’.
There are a further 2.5 million registered refugees in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, plus hundreds of thousands of Palestinian exiles elsewhere, who would not be allowed to return to their homes. Many of these - particularly those in Lebanon, subject to growing discrimination - fear being uprooted once more, and forced into the already overcrowded and under-resourced West Bank.
Palestinian citizens of Israel, too, 20% of the population, living under institutionalised discrimination, had reason to be concerned that the establishment of limited Palestinian autonomy in the occupied territories would further threaten their situation. There are increasing calls in Israel, even from cabinet ministers, for the forcible expulsion of all Palestinians; some suggest an ‘exchange of population’ with the settlers, and the establishment of an Arab-free, Jewish state.
Two States No Answer

Although many liberals and utopian optimists will attempt to develop another Oslo-style, two-state approach to the Palestine conflict, we must recognise that this cannot succeed. There can be no solution based on redrawing the borders in the Middle East, because this conflict is not about borders. As Benvenisti recognises, Palestine is a classic colonial situation, in which the Zionist movement, with the backing of western imperialism, has replaced the indigenous Arab population with Jewish settlers. This is as true in the areas within the pre-1967 borders of the state of Israel, as in the territories occupied in 1967. In fact, the period of partition, from 1948 to 1967, was an anomaly in the history of Palestine; its history, like its geography and ecology, can only be understood as a whole.
The Zionist movement, in its colonisation of Palestine, did not merely uproot the Palestinians from their land, which it divided and partitioned; it divided and partitioned the Palestinian people themselves. Their fragmented and sometimes conflicting interests are a direct result of the different situations and regimes which they have experienced as a result of Zionist colonisation. It is this division, even more than the irredentist desire to return to homes and villages (many of which no longer exist) that drives the Palestinian demand for realisation of their right to return. Families divided for over 50 years want to meet and live together; Palestinians want the simple right to live and travel anywhere they choose in Palestine.
The Israeli government clearly recognises this, even if some liberal Zionists do not. A recent law in Israel denies Israeli citizenship, and the right to reside in Israel, to any Palestinian who marries an Israeli citizen. This racist Act, which has been denounced by the United Nations, is designed both to force Palestinian citizens to leave Israel if they want to marry other Palestinians, and to remove any hope of reunification in Palestine itself
As Benvenisti and Hanegbi both realise, there can no longer be any realistic prospect of a repartition of Palestine. The growth of Israeli settlements, the construction of the Apartheid Wall, and the growth and increasing assertiveness of the Palestinian minority in the state of Israel, demonstrate Benvenisti’s assertion that Israelis and Palestinians are already living in a bi-national reality, albeit in a situation of coloniser and colonised.
While socialists and anti-imperialists must continue to demand the immediate, total and unconditional withdrawal of all Israeli forces from the territories occupied in 1967, we should not delude ourselves or others that this in itself is the solution of the conflict. It is no more than a necessary condition in which a solution can be reached. Such a solution must include implementation of practical measures to enable Palestinians to realise their right to return; dismantlement of the discriminatory Zionist structure of the state of Israel, and abolition of all racist legislation; and massive international aid to assist in the rebuilding of the shattered Palestinian economy, society and infrastructure. Such a future state would be secular, giving equal rights for all religious, ethnic and linguistic minority communities.
Neither a one-state nor a two-state approach is sufficient in itself. Regimes are more important than borders. The abolition of Zionist institutions is the issue. The real choice, which becomes ever clearer, is between colonialism and liberation, between socialism and barbarism.
 

CDNBear

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That you view the neccessity for peace that Israel must be majority muslim, shows you think Jewish people are inferior.

Jeez, that's a new one. Inferior? To what???

A Muslim majority would compel the Zionist government to impose needed reforms so that peace could prevail. At any rate it's better than what we have today. It's also a good bet that once Muslims become the majority, the UN will finally force it to conform to the UN Resolutions that it has repeatedly violated.

One observation: you refer to Jewish people by using a capitol letter but write muslim with a small letter. Could it be that you feel they are inferior? :wink:
Just because you keep calling the Israeli government "Zionist" will not magicaly make it so. Just as those that call groups like Hamas, PA or the Hezbollah, political party's or freedom fighters, are wrong, so are you, oh my mistake, that was you. lol.

Your assertion that the Arabs would not eradicate the Jewish presence, is not only irrational, but out right ridiculous. What asurances do we have that, that will not be the outcome???


Seeing as I capitalized them the second time, its fairly safe to say its a typo Gopher.

And what is special about a Muslim Majority Exactly?

If not to punish the Jewish Population, why on earth would they make peace? If they became the majority they would be a first world nation in terms of wealth. Especially after the expelled the Jewish Population (human nature after an oppressed group siezes power, look at the Sunni/Shia problems in Iraq). You really think they would let their impoverished refugee neighbours in to take a share of the pie? Look at how Native Tribes with Casino or Mineral wealth treat their lost brethren who attempt to return.

Fat chance. That you think its the fact that Israel is majority Jewish instead of Muslim thats the problem is pretty flat out bigotry, even if you don't fully realise it.

Apparently I have offended gopher by making light of his geneology(Hence the rather polite and thoughful PM from Zan), although he has used it several times to skirt the bigot/racist/anti-semetic label, with his hyper analized percentages of ancestry. Yet it was ok for him to continuously harp at my ancestry when it suited him.

The hypocracy exposed by gophers posts, know no bounds Zzarchov.
 

vinod1975

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Although many liberals and utopian optimists will attempt to develop another Oslo-style, two-state approach to the Palestine conflict, we must recognise that this cannot succeed. There can be no solution based on redrawing the borders in the Middle East, because this conflict is not about borders. As Benvenisti recognises, Palestine is a classic colonial situation, in which the Zionist movement, with the backing of western imperialism, has replaced the indigenous Arab population with Jewish settlers. This is as true in the areas within the pre-1967 borders of the state of Israel, as in the territories occupied in 1967. In fact, the period of partition, from 1948 to 1967, was an anomaly in the history of Palestine; its history, like its geography and ecology, can only be understood as a whole.
The Zionist movement, in its colonisation of Palestine, did not merely uproot the Palestinians from their land, which it divided and partitioned; it divided and partitioned the Palestinian people themselves. Their fragmented and sometimes conflicting interests are a direct result of the different situations and regimes which they have experienced as a result of Zionist colonisation. It is this division, even more than the irredentist desire to return to homes and villages (many of which no longer exist) that drives the Palestinian demand for realisation of their right to return. Families divided for over 50 years want to meet and live together; Palestinians want the simple right to live and travel anywhere they choose in Palestine.
The Israeli government clearly recognises this, even if some liberal Zionists do not. A recent law in Israel denies Israeli citizenship, and the right to reside in Israel, to any Palestinian who marries an Israeli citizen. This racist Act, which has been denounced by the United Nations, is designed both to force Palestinian citizens to leave Israel if they want to marry other Palestinians, and to remove any hope of reunification in Palestine itself
As Benvenisti and Hanegbi both realise, there can no longer be any realistic prospect of a repartition of Palestine. The growth of Israeli settlements, the construction of the Apartheid Wall, and the growth and increasing assertiveness of the Palestinian minority in the state of Israel, demonstrate Benvenisti’s assertion that Israelis and Palestinians are already living in a bi-national reality, albeit in a situation of coloniser and colonised.
While socialists and anti-imperialists must continue to demand the immediate, total and unconditional withdrawal of all Israeli forces from the territories occupied in 1967, we should not delude ourselves or others that this in itself is the solution of the conflict. It is no more than a necessary condition in which a solution can be reached. Such a solution must include implementation of practical measures to enable Palestinians to realise their right to return; dismantlement of the discriminatory Zionist structure of the state of Israel, and abolition of all racist legislation; and massive international aid to assist in the rebuilding of the shattered Palestinian economy, society and infrastructure. Such a future state would be secular, giving equal rights for all religious, ethnic and linguistic minority communities.
Neither a one-state nor a two-state approach is sufficient in itself. Regimes are more important than borders. The abolition of Zionist institutions is the issue. The real choice, which becomes ever clearer, is between colonialism and liberation, between socialism and barbarism.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
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Uh huh... stopped being colonization when the colonizers and the displaced died off.

Palestine will continue to be ruled over until 1.) they stop shooting and bombing Israel, 2.) They stop shooting and bombing each other.

If Palestine seriously wanted to live in a better world they could. But they don't.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
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50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Uh huh... stopped being colonization when the colonizers and the displaced died off.

Palestine will continue to be ruled over until 1.) they stop shooting and bombing Israel, 2.) They stop shooting and bombing each other.

If Palestine seriously wanted to live in a better world they could. But they don't.
Quite right. Why else would they keep poking a bunch that could out and out cream them if it wanted to?