A green scheme, Big Industry cashes in.

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Big industry polluters cash in on credits; schools, hospitals, get hosed

A green scheme


By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN

Today let's examine what the Kyoto accord's promoters -- including Liberal leader Stephane Dion -- argue is the major capitalist tool by which industries will be compelled to reduce greenhouse gases.
And better yet, to turn a profit while saving the world from global warming. It's the so-called carbon emissions trading market, envisioned by the Kyoto accord.
Or, as it's known in Europe where it's been operating for two years, the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS). Yes, you read that right. Scheme.
A Canadian version of the ETS, Dion argues, will force our industries to go green while allowing Canadians to make, as he puts it, "megatonnes of money" by cutting "megatonnes of emissions."
It's also, according to the European Union which runs the ETS, the major tool by which its members will reach their Kyoto targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions.
Here's what's happened so far in the two years the ETS has been up and running.
- There's been "megatonnes" of profits, all right, mainly pocketed by some of Europe's largest energy companies -- the biggest emitters of greenhouse gases.
- The spot wholesale price of electricity in some jurisdictions, which will eventually be passed on to consumers, has jumped by up to 66%.
- The ETS has created an instant new industry of carbon trading consultants, brokers and speculators, many making big profits.
- By contrast, some hospitals and schools have been forced to spend millions buying emission credits, instead of hiring nurses and teachers.
- While ETS supporters argue overall greenhouse gas emissions will go down, all that's gone down so far are projections of future emissions. Real emissions are up.
- Almost half of the EU nations (12 of 25) are in danger of exceeding their Kyoto targets, including three of the five countries with the biggest economies in Europe -- Germany, Italy and Spain.
What went wrong? When the EU created the ETS -- where 12,000 firms which emit carbon dioxide gas buy and sell permits allowing them to do so -- several big mistakes were made.
First, these companies were given the permits for free, the equivalent of creating a new stock market and giving everybody in it free stock.
Second, most EU governments were too generous in handing out permits, meaning they gave out too many in light of their Kyoto emission targets.
EASY PROFITS
Third, many of the big industries, realizing these permits were basically free money, overestimated the amount of carbon dioxide they would emit (by up to 80%), lobbied their governments hard for these permits, got them, and then sold the extra permits for easy profits to other firms, who weren't as quick on the draw, or whose governments hadn't been as naive in handing out the permits in the first place.
Because too many permits were issued, their price has fallen so low at times that it's been cheaper for firms to buy more permits, rather than cut emissions, invest in new technologies to reduce them, or pay ETS-imposed fines.
Among big ETS losers were 150 publicly-run schools, universities, hospitals, military bases and prisons, sucked into the scheme due to the size of their boilers or power stations. Unlike the private sector, they didn't get enough free permits to start and thus had to buy them, even though they are bit players compared to the big energy firms that have made huge profits.
Despite these problems, which ETS supporters dismiss as growing pains, even its critics concede it's here to stay.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper has said he opposes trading carbon credits internationally, although the Tories have certainly studied the idea. Plus, it's hard to see how we could avoid participating if we stick with the Kyoto accord.
But as for its effectiveness in cutting greenhouse gases to date? The last word goes to William Blyth, director of Oxford Energy Associates in England, who dryly observed to Bloomberg News: "I don't suppose the environment has noticed the European emissions trading scheme."

http://thetorontosun.s5.com/
 

RomSpaceKnight

Council Member
Oct 30, 2006
1,384
23
38
62
London, Ont. Canada
Until something better comes along Kyoto is still our best bet for CO2 reductions. Of course big business is always going to try find and exploit loopholes and us consumers here in NA will only pay a tokens worth to conservation practices.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Until something better comes along Kyoto is still our best bet for CO2 reductions. Of course big business is always going to try find and exploit loopholes and us consumers here in NA will only pay a tokens worth to conservation practices.

I think much the same... I hear a lot of complaining, but not a lot of alternatives to Kyoto. I have to admit to not having researched the issue thoroughly though.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
My whole obgection to the Kyoto scheme, is just that, it's a scheme. It always was, it always will be.

How can you say it's still the best bet when it isn't doing what it is supposed to do?

It's a fraud and as corrupt as any liberal party.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
My whole obgection to the Kyoto scheme, is just that, it's a scheme. It always was, it always will be.

How can you say it's still the best bet when it isn't doing what it is supposed to do?

It's a fraud and as corrupt as any liberal party.

the point is, what's the best bet? The bucket may be leaking, but if you have no other bucket then it's still your best bucket. :) what sort of environmental reforms would you suggest Bear?
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
the point is, what's the best bet? The bucket may be leaking, but if you have no other bucket then it's still your best bucket. :) what sort of environmental reforms would you suggest Bear?
I would suggest almost everything set out in Kyoto, but not as a signatory. The whole thing is a fraud. I'm not against fixing the problem, I'm against all the loopholes big business is going to make money with.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Absolutely. Close the loop holes. For starters you can't let corporations do the estimates on what their emissions are. Second, they shouldn't be free. If someone wants to trade in this industry, it should cost them money to make money, that's the idea isn't it, invest in your own country first. Third, include costs of things like R&D for cleaner technologies. Fourth, universities, schools and hospitals should be exempt. I suppose the money made from selling the permits to trade could offset the costs to schools and hospitals. Fifth, clear and concise oversight. The last thing anyone wants is a bloated department.

I mean we should be clear here. With all of the regulations we're seeing in the government, where are they trying to reduce emissions? Civilians. The energuide comes back, the government will give us tax breaks, incentives to clean up our own act. I applaud their efforts to make cars more fuel efficient, but where does that cost go... the consumer. I think industry needs a heavier hand here. Costs of electricity in Nova Scotia are going up, and the power company is blaming it on fuel prices, and basically passing it on to us. The only "clean" energy I've seen here was from a bunch of fisherman who decided to build a wind farm in a small fishing community, and they are selling that power to the Power corporation. Maybe they should be making some concerted effort to clean up themselves.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
As an aside, did anyone see the commities the Government had looking at what could be done in making the Clean Air Act? They had scientists, professors and consultants from around the world testifying on what worked and did not work in other countries. That's what is needed. Look around the world at what programs have worked, and work to implement succesfull strategies, not "carbon" copies of obviously flawed legislation.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
Kyoto for dummies. Your backyard is messy.Instead of hiring someone to clean it up,you send the money to the guy next door who has a cleaner backyard. He buys stuff to clutter up his backyard. It only makes sense to the senseless.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Absolutely. Close the loop holes. For starters you can't let corporations do the estimates on what their emissions are. Second, they shouldn't be free. If someone wants to trade in this industry, it should cost them money to make money, that's the idea isn't it, invest in your own country first. Third, include costs of things like R&D for cleaner technologies. Fourth, universities, schools and hospitals should be exempt. I suppose the money made from selling the permits to trade could offset the costs to schools and hospitals. Fifth, clear and concise oversight. The last thing anyone wants is a bloated department.

I mean we should be clear here. With all of the regulations we're seeing in the government, where are they trying to reduce emissions? Civilians. The energuide comes back, the government will give us tax breaks, incentives to clean up our own act. I applaud their efforts to make cars more fuel efficient, but where does that cost go... the consumer. I think industry needs a heavier hand here. Costs of electricity in Nova Scotia are going up, and the power company is blaming it on fuel prices, and basically passing it on to us. The only "clean" energy I've seen here was from a bunch of fisherman who decided to build a wind farm in a small fishing community, and they are selling that power to the Power corporation. Maybe they should be making some concerted effort to clean up themselves.

All of that makes a lot of sense.
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
42
48
62
Richmond, Virginia
I would suggest almost everything set out in Kyoto, but not as a signatory. The whole thing is a fraud. I'm not against fixing the problem, I'm against all the loopholes big business is going to make money with.


Im gonna sound real stupid here since its obviously a Canadian subject and I have no clue.....BUT What would happen if you took big business out of the picture and allowed the little guy to replace the big guy.........would it be as effective? Or is the big guy a nessacary evil and the rules are what needs to be changed? (legislatively speaking)
 

Sparrow

Council Member
Nov 12, 2006
1,202
23
38
Quebec
I think that we the little people are the ones who could probably come up with a better idea then Kyoto. Don't forget that some of the biggest inventions were invented by people in their garages and basements.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
71
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Until something better comes along Kyoto is still our best bet for CO2 reductions. Of course big business is always going to try find and exploit loopholes and us consumers here in NA will only pay a tokens worth to conservation practices.
I said, "to hell with the Kyoto accord" quite a while ago. Got my own little accord going. Cut back quite a bit on my own emissions and it has enabled me to save money for stocks in alternative energies. I sold my shares in oil companies when the returns from them wouldn't pay my fuel bill anymore. I quit burning my garbage and have been recycling for a long time now. I refuse bags at the grocery store and load my groceries into two big plastic (recycled plastic) bins in the back of my truck. Then I carry the bins into the house and unload. Lots of ways to help out.
What I'm basically saying is that being environmentally conscious starts in one's own back yard.
 

RedBull

New Member
Jan 22, 2007
1
0
1
Clean Earth

YES, Thats where it helps the most WE only have ONE PLANET Lets all do are part!!!!!:) :wave:
 

atomcat

New Member
Jan 24, 2007
1
0
1
Wind farms will never work. Big scam

Germany, who Dwight Duncan continues to hold up as his example to Ontario is about to build 8 new coal plants. The capacity credit for wind in Germany is 6% as is Denmark. California is 5% and Texas is only 2%. All you ever wanted to know about wind energy is available on my blog. .
I 'm a liberal I and as far as I'm concerned Duncan and McGinty should be in jail:evil3:

http://windfarms.wordpress.com/