Jesus was black.

Ariadne

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Wrong. "Greatest" or "greater" does that as they're terms relating to quantitative characteristics. "Greatness" does not indicate a quantitative characteristic as it's qualitative. I or you or Dex or Sanc have greatness in some ways, but does that mean we're greater than all else? Hardly.

It seems to me that the original argument doesn't really deal with all the suffixes of great, just the word itself: great. The argument seems to imply that there is something great that caused other stuff and that because we can imagine the concept, it must exist. That's the argument I always use with the agnostics ... that if they use the word, they acknowledge the concept and therefore can be nothing more than an atheist denying the definition of the word.
 

L Gilbert

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Some people believe that religious books are meant as fables or moral, ethical and health related story-telling while others believe that they are fact.

My son asked me about the sharing of bread and wine so of course, I had to explain that Jesus wasn't really magic, in fact he was revered so when he tried to share his meagre ration of bread with so many people, they all politely passed it from one person to the next while discreetly pulling a meagre bread ration out of their own pocket. When the bread made it's way through the crowd and all the way back to Jesus, he could declare it a miracle because everyone had something to eat, but each person privately knew that they didn't actually take any of Jesus's bread. When you think about it, everyone had a little food and drink hidden in their pockets when they went for a hike back then ... it's not like there was a McDonalds on every corner. The moral of the story is that it's good to share, good to revere the supreme leader, good to create stories to teach children socially appropriate behavior and all that other stuff. All the stories about pork are probably related to trichinosis. There's a reason for all the stories, but the reason is not necessarily because they are all fact ... but maybe Jesus could fly from Africa to the Middle East and physically alter all the negro people so that they became caucasian.
Pretty hard to see any fact in the book.One can understand Nostradamus writing cryptically, but why this? Again, there's nothing rational about it.
 

Ariadne

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Pretty hard to see any fact in the book.One can understand Nostradamus writing cryptically, but why this? Again, there's nothing rational about it.

Even Nostradamus is nothing more than hindsight and fitting the pieces into a puzzle that's already built. I'm pretty sure that some of the stories are true, like the historical documentation of who went where and how many baby boys were killed to prevent some future vision from becoming true.
 

gopher

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Get off your pedestals,live within yourself.

If you troubled yourself to read some history, you would know that racist slavery in the USA was 'justified' on the grounds that blacks were said to be born to be slaves. Had people bothered to read the Bible they would have known this to be nothing but lies and there would never have been slavery.

Therefore it is relevant to the discussion and if you had any sense you would realize it.
 

Ariadne

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Get off your pedestals,live within yourself.

If you troubled yourself to read some history, you would know that racist slavery in the USA was 'justified' on the grounds that blacks were said to be born to be slaves. Had people bothered to read the Bible they would have known this to be nothing but lies and there would never have been slavery.

Therefore it is relevant to the discussion and if you had any sense you would realize it.

Just a point of clarification, but does the Bible say black skinned people, as in people with a lot of pigment in their skin that turns very dark in the hot sun, or Negroid people ... as I believe there is a difference. There was no distinction between darker skin and race like there is today. Furthermore, it would be interesting to see the original text and to know whether darker skinned or "black" skinned people referred to servants that took off their shirts to work in the hot sun, thereby becoming black skinned. You never know what euphamism were common 2000 years ago.
 

L Gilbert

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Even Nostradamus is nothing more than hindsight and fitting the pieces into a puzzle that's already built. I'm pretty sure that some of the stories are true, like the historical documentation of who went where and how many baby boys were killed to prevent some future vision from becoming true.
.......... and something written as science fiction a while ago is now fact. So? Nostradamus had a pretty solid reason for writing cryptically. But were all the writers of the bible in fear of their lives?
I think the reason that there are so many interpretations of the writings in the book is because the writers had a hard time expressing themselves in simple, concise, and cogent language. They couldn't write, "Jesus was such a nice guy, he offered some of his food to everyone else" instead of concocting some parable fulla bilgewater? Someone could always have concocted some form of bilge out of it later to make the idea of sharing entertaining to kids. Why say it took Yahweh 7 days to build everything? Why not just say it took a long time to build everything and once in a while the guy that was all powerful had to have a rest sometimes ( :roll: ) so he took Sundays off?
 

L Gilbert

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Just a point of clarification, but does the Bible say black skinned people, as in people with a lot of pigment in their skin that turns very dark in the hot sun, or Negroid people ... as I believe there is a difference. There was no distinction between darker skin and race like there is today. Furthermore, it would be interesting to see the original text and to know whether darker skinned or "black" skinned people referred to servants that took off their shirts to work in the hot sun, thereby becoming black skinned. You never know what euphamism were common 2000 years ago.
.......... or whemever that particular part of the bible was written. :D
 

Ariadne

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.......... and something written as science fiction a while ago is now fact. So? Nostradamus had a pretty solid reason for writing cryptically. But were all the writers of the bible in fear of their lives?
I think the reason that there are so many interpretations of the writings in the book is because the writers had a hard time expressing themselves in simple, concise, and cogent language. They couldn't write, "Jesus was such a nice guy, he offered some of his food to everyone else" instead of concocting some parable fulla bilgewater? Someone could always have concocted some form of bilge out of it later to make the idea of sharing entertaining to kids. Why say it took Yahweh 7 days to build everything? Why not just say it took a long time to build everything and once in a while the guy that was all powerful had to have a rest sometimes ( :roll: ) so he took Sundays off?

Uhm, that fable about taking Sunday off has been seriously downplayed in Canada since they changed the rules and decided that people should work on Sunday. It would be better if it was rewritten again to allow the all powerful guy to sleep at night and get back to work when the sun rises - never mind that Sunday day of rest.
 

Ariadne

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Just a point of clarification, but does the Bible say black skinned people, as in people with a lot of pigment in their skin that turns very dark in the hot sun, or Negroid people ...


There are many books on the subject such as:


http://www.blackpeopleinthebible.com/

I will definitely have a better look at the site, but for starters: "Judge Randolph Jackson, Justice of the Supreme Court of the State of New York" is not an expert on anything but the courts and although a Brooklyn Baptist minister may think his ideas are inspiring, it's not exactly an indication of a scholarly work based on valid academic credentials.

Oh!!! and I just clicked on info about the author and lo and behold, he is black. I wonder if this law man has a hidden agenda ... I also have a very strong feeling that he's Baptist but I'll keep looking. For some reason, I generally believe that religious scholars are different from religious believers ... that is, scholars keep an open mind whereas believers think they have the answers.

And look at this: "He is an author, Bible teacher, empowerment consultant, motivational speaker and patron of the arts." Maybe he could start up his own religion and get rich like so many other motivational, bible speakers that empower the poor, sick and badly treated segment of the population. He could take their donations (worldly possessions, retirement savings, bank accounts) and live in a multimillion dollar mansion in the California hills. Do you think he's targeting Blacks? One thing he's got on his side is he knows the law, so he can probably stay above it.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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It seems to me that the original argument doesn't really deal with all the suffixes of great, just the word itself: great. The argument seems to imply that there is something great that caused other stuff and that because we can imagine the concept, it must exist. That's the argument I always use with the agnostics ... that if they use the word, they acknowledge the concept and therefore can be nothing more than an atheist denying the definition of the word.
I'm surprised anybody lets you get away with that bit of sophistry. Just because we can imagine something doesn't mean it must exist, that's completely illogical. I can imagine all sorts of things that don't exist and events that can't happen.
 

L Gilbert

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I'm surprised anybody lets you get away with that bit of sophistry. Just because we can imagine something doesn't mean it must exist, that's completely illogical. I can imagine all sorts of things that don't exist and events that can't happen.
Hmmm. I musta missed that post or wasn't paying much attention. Anyway, it's not only illogical, it doesn't make any sense either. :D I'd love for a leprachaun to give me his/her pot of gold. ;) I can even imagine it. Same with me giving Regis Philbin a fat lip. ;)
 

Ariadne

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I'm surprised anybody lets you get away with that bit of sophistry. Just because we can imagine something doesn't mean it must exist, that's completely illogical. I can imagine all sorts of things that don't exist and events that can't happen.

Are you suggesting that you cannot imagine what the word great means?

Let's also try to keep in mind that I am discussing the writings of Thomas, not my own ideas.
 
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