An Interesting take on WW2 A-bombs

#juan

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I ran accross this completely by accident, and it certainly runs contrary to popular opinion in a lot of circles. There are some interesting links.

By Fred Halstead, The Militant, 14 August 1995 On Aug. 6, 1945, and again on August 9, the U.S. government dropped the first and second atomic bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Tens of thousands of people died instantly, with thousands more dying later. This year marks the 50th anniversary of that atrocity.
The following article appeared in the Jan. 25, 1965, issue of the Militant under the headline What the Record Shows: U.S. Guilt at Hiroshima. The author, Fred Halstead, was a longtime leader of the Socialist Workers Party.
As the SWP's candidate for president in 1968, Halstead took a trip around the world, visiting Japan, South Vietnam, India, Egypt, West Germany, France, and Britain. In Japan he attended several peace conferences, addressing a session of the Japan Conference Against A- and H-Bombs on August 6 in Hiroshima.
That Japan was truly making sincere requests for peace, before and at the time of the Hiroshima A-bomb, is an undisputed fact of history. It is so well established that even popular history books and standard reference works recently published in this country cannot ignore it.
The obvious implications of the fact are so damning to the moral position of the American capitalist power structure and so unpleasant to the American people generally, however, that the fact is not often squarely faced in this country, even by many pacifist critics of the government's nuclear warfare policies. In the popular histories and reference works, it is generally glossed over with the briefest, most off-hand mention—after the style of West German textbook references to Nazi crimes—as if the unpleasant fact could somehow be buried and forgotten if it is given the low-key treatment.
And indeed the general impression still exists in this country (but not abroad) that somehow the dropping of the A-bombs on Japan caused the end of the war and eliminated a bloody invasion of the Japanese home islands, thus saving more lives than the A-bombs themselves snuffed out. This is a lie manufactured and spread in the first place by President Truman and British prime ministers Churchill and Attlee, who took responsibility for the decision to drop the bombs. It is nothing but the official trumped-up alibi for one of the most shocking and unjustified war crimes in all human history.
What are the facts? This is what the Encyclopedia Britannica (1959 edition) has to say: After the fall of Okinawa [on June 21, 1945], [Japanese Prime Minister] Suzuki's main objective was to get Japan out of the war on the best possible terms, though that could not be announced to the general public... Unofficial peace feelers were transmitted through Switzerland and Sweden... Later the Japanese made a formal request to Russia to aid in bringing hostilities to an end.
The Britannica then completes its coverage by saying that Russia rebuffed the Japanese overtures because it didn't want the war to end before it was scheduled to invade the northern areas occupied by Japan. What the Britannica fails to mention is that these Japanese overtures were known to Washington because the dispatches between Foreign Minister Togo in Tokyo and Japanese Ambassador Sato in Moscow were intercepted by the United States.
The entire affair is documented in the Hoover Library volume Japan's Decision to Surrender, by Robert J.C. Butlow (Stanford University, 1954). Butlow quotes the dispatch that was received and decoded in Washington on July 13, 1945:Togo to Sato...Convey His Majesty's strong desire to secure a termination of the war...Unconditional surrender is the only obstacle to peace. These requests continued through July.
Butlow documents that Washington knew the one condition insisted upon by the Japanese government was the continuation of the emperor on his throne and the symbolic recognition this implied of the Japanese home islands as a political entity. As it turned out this was exactly the condition that was granted when the peace was finally signed after the A-bombings August 6 and 9.
If the U.S. government knew as early as July 13 that the leading circles in Japan were seeking peace on those terms, why didn't it pursue this possibility for peace instead of ignoring it and proceeding with the A-bombings? There is simply no satisfactory answer to this question from the point of view of the military demands of ending the war—even on U.S. imperialist terms—and saving soldiers' lives.
Twice guilty As Hanson W. Baldwin, the New York Times military analyst, said in his book Great Mistakes of the War (1949):
Our only warning to a Japan already militarily defeated, and in a hopeless situation, was the Potsdam demand for unconditional surrender issued on July 26, when we knew the Japanese surrender attempt had started. Yet when the Japanese surrender was negotiated about two weeks later, after the bomb was dropped, our unconditional surrender demand was made conditional and we agreed, as [Secretary of War] Stimson had originally proposed we should do, to continuation of the Emperor upon his imperial throne.
We were, therefore, twice guilty. We dropped the bomb at a time when Japan already was negotiating for an end of the war, but before these negotiations could come to fruition. We demanded unconditional surrender, then dropped the bomb and accepted conditional surrender, a sequence which indicates pretty clearly that the Japanese would have surrendered, even if the bomb had not been dropped, had the Potsdam Declaration included our promise to permit the Emperor to remain on his imperial throne.
Why, then, did the United States drop the bombs? One of the few writers who claims to believe the official alibi is Robert C. Batchelder, author of the well-documented The Irreversible Decision (1962). Even Batchelder admits: It seems clear that had the [U.S.] attempt to end the war by political and diplomatic means been undertaken sooner, more seriously, and with more skill, the decision to use the atomic bomb might well have been rendered unnecessary.
Batchelder explains the affair away by attributing it to U.S. diplomatic inefficiency and a tendency in U.S. leaders to deal with the war in purely military terms and neglect political aspects. But the evidence indicates the final A-bomb decision was made precisely for political reasons.
Indeed, some top U.S. military men—including Eisenhower and the chief of staff of the U.S. armed forces at the time, Adm. William D. Leahy—declined to support use of the bomb. In his book, I Was There (1950), Leahy says: it is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.
It was my reaction that the scientists and others wanted to make this test [!] because of the vast sums that had been spent on the project. Truman knew that, and so did the people involved. However, the Chief Executive made the decision to use the bomb on two cities in Japan.
Live targets

This test on Hiroshima and Nagasaki cost, by the conservative American estimates, 110,000 dead and as many injured; and, by Japanese estimates, twice that many. The evidence strongly indicates that one major motivation of the A-bomb decision was precisely to test the bomb on live targets, so as to confront the postwar world with the proven fact of overwhelming U.S. military superiority. It also established the fact that U.S. imperialism not only had the bomb but had the ruthlessness to use it.
The haste with which the bomb was used indicates that the U.S. purposely ignored the Japanese peace requests (which were known in Washington on July 13) in order to drop the bomb before the war ended. No one was sure the bomb would work until July 18 when it was tested in New Mexico. The only other two bombs in existence were quickly dispatched to the Pacific base and were dropped on August 6 and 9. This haste is unexplained by combat problems. By that stage of the war U.S. bombers and ships encountered no serious resistance and no U.S. troop attacks were scheduled until November 1, so the haste was not necessary to save American lives.
One of the most thoughtful works on the subject is that by the British nuclear scientist, P.M.S. Blackett, entitled Fear, War and the Bomb (London, 1949). Blackett points out: If the saving of American lives had been the main objective, surely the bombs would have been held back until (a) it was certain that the Japanese peace proposals made through Russia were not acceptable, and (b) the Russian offensive, which had for months been part of the allied strategic plan, and which Americans had previously demanded, had run its course.
Bomb aimed against Soviet Union This last is the final piece in the puzzle. It is Blackett's well-founded thesis that one reason for the haste was to drop the bomb before the Russians entered the war against Japan. The allies had already agreed at Yalta that the USSR would attack Japan three months after Germany surrendered. Stalin had notified the United States that the Russian armies would be ready for that attack on schedule, that is, August 8. The bomb was dropped on Hiroshima August 6.
In another book by Blackett, Atomic Weapons and East- West Relations (London, 1956), the scientist discusses the later feelings of some of his American colleagues who had been involved in the decision to use the A-bomb:
The opposition between 1949 and 1951 of so many atomic scientists to the H-bomb program must, I think, be taken as the price the American Government paid for lack of candor in 1945. If the scientists had been told that Japan had been essentially defeated and was suing for peace, but that the dropping of the bombs won for America a vital diplomatic victory, since it kept the Soviet Union out of the Japanese peace settlement and so avoided the difficulties and frictions inherent in the German surrender, I expect most would have accepted, however reluctantly, the practical wisdom of the act. They were not told this, but they were told that the bomb saved untold American lives. When they later learnt that this was rather unlikely, many of them must have begun to fear that their government might not be able to resist some future temptation to exploit America's atomic superiority...
To sum up: That Japan was defeated and suing for peace before the bombs were dropped is a fact established beyond doubt. The motivations of U.S. rulers in dropping the bombs anyway is, of course, a disputed question. But the evidence utterly fails to support the official alibi that it was done to avoid costly battles. On the contrary, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were murdered, not to end World War II, but to launch what later came to be known as the cold war.



http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/20/043.html
 

Colpy

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To sum up: That Japan was defeated and suing for peace before the bombs were dropped is a fact established beyond doubt. The motivations of U.S. rulers in dropping the bombs anyway is, of course, a disputed question. But the evidence utterly fails to support the official alibi that it was done to avoid costly battles. On the contrary, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were murdered, not to end World War II, but to launch what later came to be known as the cold war.

Baloney!

There is a huge difference between "suing for peace" (which usually means ceasing hostilities with both parties remaining in possesion of what they hold) and surrender.

Should we have left Japan in control of several islands in the Pacific, in control of Korea, and a huge chunk of China? I think not.

Even more disingenuous is the idea that the bomb should not have been dropped, but surrender forced by blockade and continuing conventional air strikes. You would think these folks would realize conventional air stikes over a couple of months would have killed many more than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A SINGLE one-night raid on Tokyo killed 150,000 people, more than died in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Just plain silliness.
 

thomaska

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And invariably someone will come along and suggest that we dropped it on them because they were non-whites, which is also baloney. As you said Colpy, the firebombing of Tokyo killed many more people. This also happened to Dresden, which I believe, in war-time Germany, was most likely "mostly white"
 

#juan

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Baloney!

There is a huge difference between "suing for peace" (which usually means ceasing hostilities with both parties remaining in possesion of what they hold) and surrender.

Should we have left Japan in control of several islands in the Pacific, in control of Korea, and a huge chunk of China? I think not.

Even more disingenuous is the idea that the bomb should not have been dropped, but surrender forced by blockade and continuing conventional air strikes. You would think these folks would realize conventional air stikes over a couple of months would have killed many more than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A SINGLE one-night raid on Tokyo killed 150,000 people, more than died in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Just plain silliness.

So how did the A-bombs change any of that? Did the A-bombs change the situation on those Pacific islands? I doubt it. We were still finding Japanese soldiers on Pacific islands, still fighting, ten years after the Japanese surrender.

American B-29s had been unopposed for several months, and had virtually run out of targets. The crews were removing defensive weapons to let them carry more bombs. The Japanese were finished. They had nothing left to fight with. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were saved for the A-bombs. As you say, A few incendiary raids would have done the job just as well, without the ugly, lingering, deaths from fall-out and radiation poisoning, that Japanese people are still dying from.
 

Colpy

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A few incendiary raids would have done the job just as well, without the ugly, lingering, deaths from fall-out and radiation poisoning,

You might well have a point there, Juan.

But we are getting down to splitting hairs...........wish I had more time to argue, but I'm off to work.
 

#juan

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And invariably someone will come along and suggest that we dropped it on them because they were non-whites, which is also baloney. As you said Colpy, the firebombing of Tokyo killed many more people. This also happened to Dresden, which I believe, in war-time Germany, was most likely "mostly white"

I think it is obvious that Heroshima and Nagasaki were saved for the A-bombs, which were an object lesson for the Russians. The first salvo, as it were, in the cold war.
 

mabudon

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See, Colpy, this piece of "revisionism" (in this case revising the erroneous "save American lives and end the war BS excuse for the nukes) is EXACTLY what I was referring to in that "tinfoil idiots" thread, the Yalta conference is in fact TOTALLY UNDISPUTED and the Russians were most definitely interested in a slice of the pie, which was denied with the nuclear strikes...

Interesting that thiswould get posted so soon after I was ridiculed for having "no grasp of history", cos this article sounds EXACTLY LIKE what I posted earlier

And Occams Razor applies like flies on crap to this particular angle, the "saving of lives" and "ending the war which would otherwise have gone on for years" is utter BS, and as I suggested in the other thread, it was the Yalta agreement (and yes, I forgot that was the place where the plan was hatched and agreed to, but who cares, I was right on the FACTS) and the interest of using the weapon in a "real" place that most likely informed the decision to use the things, neither of which has a shred of the "blessed altruism" usually attributed to some countries
 

Dalreg

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I think it is obvious that Heroshima and Nagasaki were saved for the A-bombs, which were an object lesson for the Russians. The first salvo, as it were, in the cold war.

These two cities were not SAVED for A bombs. In fact Nagasaki was an alternate target. It was not on the original list of Hiroshima, Kokura and Niigata.Nagasaki was not added to the list until the week before the first bomb was dropped.

As for Hiroshima being the first target one of the deciding factors was information that it was the only city on the list without an allied prisoner of war camp. Which later proved to be wrong. The day of the bombing 3 targets were choosen with scout planes checking each for weather conditions. Hiroshima was picked based on the info of the scout planes. So it well could have been a different city if not for the weather.

For a good book on this you should check out "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes. It is a good read.
 

#juan

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The B-29s systematically laid waste to Japan's large industrial cities. LeMay told Arnold there would soon be nothing left to bomb or burn, except for Kyoto (the old capital) and four other cities -- Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Niigata, and Kokura -- that were barred for routine B-29 missions. These four were, of course, on the target list for the "special bomb."

http://www.afa.org/media/enolagay/07-02.html
 

Dalreg

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They weren't spared from all bombing it was just kept to strategic style bombing (pin point) not the mass fire bombings associated with other cities.

I won't start a war on this topic, it isn't worth the effort but I have done extensive readings and could probably teach you a few things.
 

I think not

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I honestly don’t have the patience to go through and rip apart every moronic comment Fred Halstead has made in his article, but I will certainly touch upon the major issues he has attempted to revise.

[B said:
Fred Halstead[/b]]This year marks the 50th anniversary of that atrocity.

The only atrocity I see Mr. Halstead is Imperial Japan placing civilians amongst a significant military and industrial complex known as Hiroshima. It is Hiroshima that armed Tojo’s butchers on a quest of genocide into China. That is an undisputed fact. I noticed on your “trip around the world” you left China out of your itinerary. You should have visited to get another opinion on Hiroshima and Imperial Japan’s strategy in China.

[B said:
Fred Halstead[/b]]That Japan was truly making sincere requests for peace, before and at the time of the Hiroshima A-bomb, is an undisputed fact of history. It is so well established that even popular history books and standard reference works recently published in this country cannot ignore it.

I would like to say Mr. Halstead that the only undisputed fact in that statement is your warped knowledge of history, but I believe your intent is not to project ignorance, but rather, you have a political ax to grind and you are intentionally distorting history.

There were several politicians and a group of civilians that reached out waving a white flag to negotiate peace with the United States. This group had no influence whatsoever within the Imperial circle, and even less with the die hard militarists of Imperial Japan. There were even internal conflicts between the civilian leadership and the military on this issue. The militarists and the Emperor weren’t bending. It is analogous in sending out the Palestinian Senior Citizens Center to Israel in an attempt to negotiate peace without the government’s consent. Where the heck is the undisputed fact that Imperial Japan was going to surrender? It took TWO bombs and an invasion of Manchuria by Russia on August 9th to convince Japan to surrender. An argument you and your ilk always ignore.

[B said:
Fred Halstead[/b]]And indeed the general impression still exists in this country (but not abroad) that somehow the dropping of the A-bombs on Japan caused the end of the war and eliminated a bloody invasion of the Japanese home islands, thus saving more lives than the A-bombs themselves snuffed out. This is a lie manufactured and spread in the first place by President Truman and British prime ministers Churchill and Attlee, who took responsibility for the decision to drop the bombs. It is nothing but the official trumped-up alibi for one of the most shocking and unjustified war crimes in all human history.

Unjustified? While there were cheers and tears in Europe celebrating the defeat of Germany on V-E Day, the Battle of Okinawa raged and claimed over 70,000 US troops and over 150,000 Japanese troops. The ferociousness of this one single battle can illustrate to a 12 year old that Japan was not willing to surrender. Their great Nazi allies had folded. Who was going to come to their rescue? The militarists of the Imperial government were determined to sacrifice every last man. Period. Had Japan wanted a ceasefire or peace negotiations they would have made overt efforts accomplish this within days of Germany’s surrender.


Fred Halstead is nothing but a Trotskyite revisionist monkey with no background knowledge of basic history. He isn’t even a historian by any stretch of the imagination. He forgets the Japanese were a lot closer in developing the A Bomb than the Germans were. Yes Japan was struggling for resources and it was becoming more and more difficult to ship resources into Japan, this is way they setup a HUGE complex in Northern Korea in the city of Konan, where research on the atomic bomb had gone full speed ahead and (although not fully verifiable) had tested their own atomic bomb days before Hiroshima. What were they planning on doing with their genzai bakudan Mr. Halstead? I’ll tell you, their immediate plans were to arm kamikaze pilots with nuclear bombs and destroy the American Pacific Fleet.

This issue of “morality” of the A bomb droppings springs up every few years by some new and profound “historical fact” that tries and circumvents real history. Even in Japan today, the people are oblivious to the atrocities committed by Imperial Japan upon their neighbors.

If you want to talk atrocities Mr. Halstead, let’s talk about the Nanking Massacre, let’s talk about the experiments oh human beings, let’s talk about the Asian Holocaust, let’s talk about the Imperial Prick authorizing the use of chemical weapons, let’s talk about torture of prisoners of war. When you’re done talking about all those crimes against humanity and come to terms with it, let’s open up the debate how “immoral” the A bombs were.
 

Logic 7

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Baloney!

There is a huge difference between "suing for peace" (which usually means ceasing hostilities with both parties remaining in possesion of what they hold) and surrender.

Should we have left Japan in control of several islands in the Pacific, in control of Korea, and a huge chunk of China? I think not.

Even more disingenuous is the idea that the bomb should not have been dropped, but surrender forced by blockade and continuing conventional air strikes. You would think these folks would realize conventional air stikes over a couple of months would have killed many more than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A SINGLE one-night raid on Tokyo killed 150,000 people, more than died in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Just plain silliness.



Bullstrawberry crap, the japenese were about to surrender, but barbarian decided to test their bomb, both nuclear bomb were totally different design, get your facts straight.So saying the nuclear bomb were dropped to save peoples is totally stupid, and only naive ,and guilluble people who will fall into this.


And by the way, 225 000 peoples were killed by both nuclear bombs dropped on japan, not only this, but decades after those bomb were dropped, there was severe side effects on civilians life, so guys please, keep your stupidity and outrageous claim on those attrocities supported by peoples like you..
 
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Logic 7

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I honestly don’t have the patience to go through and rip apart every moronic comment Fred Halstead has made in his article, but I will certainly touch upon the major issues he has attempted to revise.




If you want to talk atrocities Mr. Halstead, let’s talk about the Nanking Massacre, let’s talk about the experiments oh human beings, let’s talk about the Asian Holocaust, let’s talk about the Imperial Prick authorizing the use of chemical weapons, let’s talk about torture of prisoners of war. When you’re done talking about all those crimes against humanity and come to terms with it, let’s open up the debate how “immoral” the A bombs were.


Justifying those nuclear bombs, is like justifying the killing of 6 millions of jews during ww2, it makes no sense, only fascist and nazi can support that kind of attrocity, it is just plain stupid.
 

Colpy

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Bullstrawberry crap, the japenese were about to surrender, but barbarian decided to test their bomb, both nuclear bomb were totally different design, get your facts straight.So saying the nuclear bomb were dropped to save peoples is totally stupid, and only naive ,and guilluble people who will fall into this.


And by the way, 225 000 peoples were killed by both nuclear bombs dropped on japan, not only this, but decades after those bomb were dropped, there was severe side effects on civilians life, so guys please, keep your stupidity and outrageous claim on those attrocities supported by peoples like you..

Let's put this to bed once and for all: here's a site that proves the estimate of 500,000 US DEAD, and up to a million wounded was actually a LOWER figure than originally arrived at by the professional people who did casualty estimation, in an attempt to make the operation seem more feasible. These are people with NO knowledge of the existence of nukes at the time, so they could not have been making excuses.....

http://home.kc.rr.com/casualties/

Here's one for those who think the Japs were about to surrender without a fight:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/olympic.html

And some more:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/pacificwar/AtomBomb_Japan.html

And, one has to question the motives of the author of the original piece......let's see, the head of a communist party accuses the United States of mass murder simply to thwart the honest aspirations of Stalin..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_(United_States)

Two Points:

One: If the USA was seeking to cheat Stalin, why not do it in EUROPE? Why stop at an agreed line and let the USSR take Berlin? Especially with Patton mad to take on the Russians..........

Two: If the USA prevented portions of the Japanese from falling under the rule of Stalin by killing "only" 225,000 Japs with nukes (a vast over-estimate of the immediate death toll, BTW), then the Japanese should consider themselves lucky..............
 
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I think not

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Bullstrawberry crap, the japenese were about to surrender, but barbarian decided to test their bomb, both nuclear bomb were totally different design, get your facts straight.So saying the nuclear bomb were dropped to save peoples is totally stupid, and only naive ,and guilluble people who will fall into this.

Prove it that the Japanese were about to surrender. And after you do that, explain why the US dropped the bombs anyway.

Justifying those nuclear bombs, is like justifying the killing of 6 millions of jews during ww2, it makes no sense, only fascist and nazi can support that kind of attrocity, it is just plain stupid.

Your analogy is moronic, like almost every other post I have read from you. The holocaust was a systemic act of genocide, the bombs ended the war. Please elaborate how you are able to compare the two.
 

mabudon

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Easy, the bombs were dropped to A) have a test on a real "built up" area since such a thing is difficult to test in sterile conditions (and look at what bad things were learned about the long-term effects and such, all in all a pretty valuable demonstration) and B) to "end" the war, publically- if the US authorities (and that is an "IF" not a "since") knew Japan was basically dying on the vine and announced as much to the world and the US citizens, dropping the bombs would have been seen as the nutty crime it was- but if you set up the Japanese as "they will fight til the last man" and "they will NEVER surrender" and roll out the rationale that dropping the bombs was necessary (which would have been difficult if the truth of the situation the Japanese faced at the time were known) then you get to be the valiant hero, striking the mortal blow upon an enemy that would not have gone down with anything less...

Look at the attempts in almost every corner of the media to blow up Iran into some giant monster, no matter what the truth might be, and you can see thissame thing in action- you gotta identify your enemy, and make it lok like a real threat, THEN you can go and have your way with them and the folks at home and some folks around the world will cheer


As I see it, it was classic "perception management" from before that term was even coined- remember the Japanese were viewed as subhuman savages, and that perception lives on for some people to this day (NOT excusing any kind of torture or anything, but as we've seen, it happens in "war" no matter HOW proud and "just" the fighting force and is certainly not the exclusive province of non-english speaking countries)
 

Colpy

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Easy, the bombs were dropped to A) have a test on a real "built up" area since such a thing is difficult to test in sterile conditions (and look at what bad things were learned about the long-term effects and such, all in all a pretty valuable demonstration) and B) to "end" the war, publically- if the US authorities (and that is an "IF" not a "since") knew Japan was basically dying on the vine and announced as much to the world and the US citizens, dropping the bombs would have been seen as the nutty crime it was- but if you set up the Japanese as "they will fight til the last man" and "they will NEVER surrender" and roll out the rationale that dropping the bombs was necessary (which would have been difficult if the truth of the situation the Japanese faced at the time were known) then you get to be the valiant hero, striking the mortal blow upon an enemy that would not have gone down with anything less...

Look at the attempts in almost every corner of the media to blow up Iran into some giant monster, no matter what the truth might be, and you can see thissame thing in action- you gotta identify your enemy, and make it lok like a real threat, THEN you can go and have your way with them and the folks at home and some folks around the world will cheer


As I see it, it was classic "perception management" from before that term was even coined- remember the Japanese were viewed as subhuman savages, and that perception lives on for some people to this day (NOT excusing any kind of torture or anything, but as we've seen, it happens in "war" no matter HOW proud and "just" the fighting force and is certainly not the exclusive province of non-english speaking countries)

Yeah. The Japs were so VERY prone to surrender, just look at how quickly they gave up when faced with certain death: (SARCASM ALERT)

Tawara:
Japanese defenders 4,836 Surrendered 17 Escaped 0

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-M-Tarawa/USMC-M-Tarawa-C.html

Iwo Jima
est 20,000+ Japanese dead, 1,083 POWs

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/LUTZ/iwo.html

Saipan
Of 30,000 Japanese troops, less than 1,000 became POWs. One half of the civilian population died, many by suicide, jumping off cliffs, and thousands joined the suicidal last banzai attack into American lines. 26,000 civilians died. This was Japanese soil, and can be taken as an example of how the homeland would be defended.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pacific/peopleevents/e_battles.html

Okinawa
Japanese dead: 71,500 POWS 4,200

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/okinawa-battle.htm

Oh yeah, and the Japanese were, at the end of WWII, planning to kill all POWs they held if Japan was invaded.............and, just as a note, 95% of Japanese POWS in American hands survived the war. Only 49% of Allied POWs in Japanese hands survived the war.

IMHO, the mere fact of saving allied POWs justifies the nuclear attacks, ignoring the above evidence of the determination of the Japanese to resist until death.
 

mabudon

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Okay, that take makes a tad more sense, and your use of the "notwithstanding" type logic really clarifies your stance, Colpy, thanks.

BUT by that same logic, there are countries that RIGHT NOW would be similarly justified in launching some kind of devastating attack on the US, cos they ain't giving up either and hold a LOT of prisoners, secret and not, and from the way things are going, while they might not be in danger of death, they sure aren't in "danger" of ever being released either.... would that not be the case?? Not being a jerk (at least not trying to, just playin devils advocate) but I do believe that this is the same thing, if you take the "sides" out of the equation (llike "good" and "bad", "us" and "them")
 

Colpy

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Saint John, N.B.
Okay, that take makes a tad more sense, and your use of the "notwithstanding" type logic really clarifies your stance, Colpy, thanks.

BUT by that same logic, there are countries that RIGHT NOW would be similarly justified in launching some kind of devastating attack on the US, cos they ain't giving up either and hold a LOT of prisoners, secret and not, and from the way things are going, while they might not be in danger of death, they sure aren't in "danger" of ever being released either.... would that not be the case?? Not being a jerk (at least not trying to, just playin devils advocate) but I do believe that this is the same thing, if you take the "sides" out of the equation (llike "good" and "bad", "us" and "them")

I see your logic, but it has some gaps.......

first of all, the Americans are not standing their prisoners up against the wall and shooting them......nor are they starving them to death or executing them on a whim. Indeed, they have released the vast majority of them in good shape.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the fact of prisoners held in secret any more than you.......but those are VERY few, as far as we know.

And I'm sorry, I'm just not intellectually or philosophically capable of taking the "sides" out of the equation.