Who's right to choose, a womans right to choose.

[Kreskin]

Kreskin that just makes you a more than honourable man that ANY woman would make damn sure you were in their lives. But everyone is not like you. And in my humble opinion its not a fair world we live in. I believe we ALL have rights and we ALL have a say in how our lives pan out EVEN if we've made a huge mistake. Women get to choose how their bodies are used. Its their goddess given right.......period! Noone here is saying any less. But the choices that are made after that sweet bundle is born HAS to be on an even board. It took two to get to this point and it will take two to move on. Putting men in jail is not fair, a woman can go on assistance from the state without going to jail. A man is hunted down.......Im not saying this as eloquantly as Bear or LRG or even you. I just wanted to say I wish the 2 "dads" that I was burdianed with we're more like you. I still wouldnt have made you pay child support but it would have made life nicer knowing a decent human being.

If you chose not to, ok. Does the system(s) need improving? Most certainly. Linking the issue to reproductive rights is what continously happens in this thread. It's neither here nor there when the baby is born. How does one parent opting out of any support when it is needed by the child become fair? If you feel it is imperative to get the support how is it on even ground if the woman has 100% responsibility and the father none?

 

[CDNBear]

Bear. Dad and kid at home with only enough foor to feed one of them. Do you eat it or give it to your child? Most would give the food, the clothing off their backs, anything, to their child.

Do you have a problem with any court seeing that the Dad share some of that food and clothing with their kid? Or do you see the courts saying this is a reproductive rights issue?

When we were at our lowest, we ate popcorn weeks on end so my boys had what they needed.

It is not a reproductive rights issue, it is an equality issue.

There is no equality in the current system.

 

[Kreskin]

It's no wonder indeed. If more women took responsiblity for their actions and choices, they wouldn't sit idle and cry and moan about the state of their lives and be positive and do the best they could with what they had, that way the child would have the greatest chance of learning self reliance, responsiblity for their actions and choices. then go forth and be a productive member of society with all the chances that the average child has.

Back to the woman and her abortion rights, or what responsibilities are you referring to that only she has and he doesn't?

 

[Kreskin]

When we were at our lowest, we ate popcorn weeks on end so my boys had what they needed.

It is not a reproductive rights issue, it is an equality issue.

There is no equality in the current system.

Equality of what?

 

[CDNBear]

If you chose not to, ok. Does the system(s) need improving? Most certainly. Linking the issue to reproductive rights is what continously happens in this thread. It's neither here nor there when the baby is born. How does one parent opting out of any support when it is needed by the child become fair? If you feel it is imperative to get the support how is it on even ground if the woman has 100% responsibility and the father none?

Because she can choose what the outcome is, the man can not.

 

[CDNBear]

Equality of what?

I'm not even going to answer this again.

 

[Kreskin]

Because she can choose what the outcome is, the man can not.

So you are officially taking the position that since a woman can have an abortion a guy has no responsibility to his child.

Bear, you know better than that.

 

[selfactivated]

If you chose not to, ok. Does the system(s) need improving? Most certainly. Linking the issue to reproductive rights is what continously happens in this thread. It's neither here nor there when the baby is born. How does one parent opting out of any support when it is needed by the child become fair? If you feel it is imperative to get the support how is it on even ground if the woman has 100% responsibility and the father none?

But thats not true in my eyes. If a woman decides to keep that child and the father is not in accordance then where are his choices? She decided to have the baby, in the current system (as I know it) She can go on assistance without having to fear being put in jail. He on the other hand must pay the state and in a great deal of cases loose everything he owns to pay the state back for her being on assistance.

He doesnt want a child to raise, he's made it clear from the beginning. She insists she wants the child.....ok great.......so raise it. Maybe Im being simplistic. But if a woman chooses to keep a child thats her choice. I cant make myself any clearer Im not good with logic. I am good at what my sense of fairness is. Just my two cents

 

[Kreskin]

But thats not true in my eyes. If a woman decides to keep that child and the father is not in accordance then where are his choices? She decided to have the baby, in the current system (as I know it) She can go on assistance without having to fear being put in jail. He on the other hand must pay the state and in a great deal of cases loose everything he owns to pay the state back for her being on assistance.

He doesnt want a child to raise, he's made it clear from the beginning. She insists she wants the child.....ok great.......so raise it. Maybe Im being simplistic. But if a woman chooses to keep a child thats her choice. I cant make myself any clearer Im not good with logic. I am good at what my sense of fairness is. Just my two cents

So your official position is that since a woman can have an abortion that no male is responsible for any of his children, if he choses not to be of any help. I wish you luck in explaining it in any court because the argument has a snowballs chance in hell.

 

[CDNBear]

So you are officially taking the position that since a woman can have an abortion a guy has no responsibility to his child.

Bear, you know better than that.

It's not about abortion.

It's about choices.

Women three, men zero.

If men can not force women to bear the child, then how can you say it is right to force the man into slavery?

 

[Sassylassie]

So you are officially taking the position that since a woman can have an abortion a guy has no responsibility to his child.

Bear, you know better than that.

I just don't understand how you feel that males don't have equality Bear, a man can impregnate a women and walk completly away from said child but a women has to choose to let the baby live or kill it and if she keeps it it will become HER life time responsibility. Excuse moi but the only inequality I see is the males right to impregnate at will and negate his responsibilities to these children. I've know men who fathered as many as seven illigit children and they pay no child support for any of them, I don't know any females that gave birth to seven children and abandoned them thou.

So Bear how would you resolve this issue to give your sex equality, remember Slavery is illegal.

 

[selfactivated]

Kreskin your an honourable man living in times that are in great need of more of you, but sweetheart (said with all my heart) your a breed that is dying. Woman are not as weak as you think and we do not need saving. We are as strong as you are and we can live with our mistakes just as any man can. My "position" is that we have long played the "weak" card and its time to own up!

Yall have fun. I lived this thread to the ninth and Im proud of the fact I played fair.

 

[talloola]

Kreskin that just makes you a more than honourable man that ANY woman would make damn sure you were in their lives. But everyone is not like you. And in my humble opinion its not a fair world we live in. I believe we ALL have rights and we ALL have a say in how our lives pan out EVEN if we've made a huge mistake. Women get to choose how their bodies are used. Its their goddess given right.......period! Noone here is saying any less. But the choices that are made after that sweet bundle is born HAS to be on an even board. It took two to get to this point and it will take two to move on. Putting men in jail is not fair, a woman can go on assistance from the state without going to jail. A man is hunted down.......Im not saying this as eloquantly as Bear or LRG or even you. I just wanted to say I wish the 2 "dads" that I was burdianed with we're more like you. I still wouldnt have made you pay child support but it would have made life nicer knowing a decent human being.

Why would you ever avoid sharing responsibility for your child to the point of the legal system having
to put you in jail, that is the extreme. A man must have to do many sneaky things to avoid sharing
part of their monthly income with their child, to come to the point where they are jailed.

Why would a man ever think that he doesn't have half responsibility for providing for their own child.

How could any man even admit that he doesn't want to help in the support of their child.

 

[CDNBear]

I just don't understand how you feel that males don't have equality Bear, a man can impregnate a women and walk completly away from said child but a women has to choose to let the baby live or kill it and if she keeps it it will become HER life time responsibility. Excuse moi but the only inequality I see is the males right to impregnate at will and negate his responsibilities to these children. I've know men who fathered as many as seven illigit children and they pay no child support for any of them, I don't know any females that gave birth to seven children and abandoned them thou.

So Bear how would you resolve this issue to give your sex equality, remember Slavery is illegal.

EXACTLY, so why is it ok to put men into court ordered slavery?

 

[Sassylassie]

So Bear men can go around inpregnating women with impunity but as long as he's not held financially "Responsible" for his hoeing ways it's okay but if he's held accountable for his actions that's enequality? Sorry but that is deniel, he had the choice to practice safe sex and he chose not to, please no argument that the female should use protection that's been our responsiblity since the dawn of time. If men practiced the rule no "Glove no love" their precious pocket book would be safe for a life time.

Bear wrote: EXACTLY, so why is it ok to put men into court ordered slavery?

Paying to support a child you created is Slavery? Sorry Bear it's called owning up to being a parent, so what is your "Solution" to this problem you have with holding men accountable for fathering children? As someone who spent a great deal of time and money (forget the pain and the suffering) hoping to have a child perhaps I'm not unbiased on this issue but your stance is very offensive to me as a female.

 

[tracy]

Kreskin your an honourable man living in times that are in great need of more of you, but sweetheart (said with all my heart) your a breed that is dying. Woman are not as weak as you think and we do not need saving. We are as strong as you are and we can live with our mistakes just as any man can. My "position" is that we have long played the "weak" card and its time to own up!

Yall have fun. I lived this thread to the ninth and Im proud of the fact I played fair.

I appreciate your experiences have formed your point of view and I'm sure you made the right decision for your kids.

BUT- I don't think it's weakness to want the father of your children to help raise them. I hope Kreskin and Bear and other responsible men aren't a dying breed. I know men who have stepped up and become great fathers to their children (and even to the children they've chosen to raise with their partners). IMO that's what a man does. I couldn't respect a man who would do anything else.

 

[tracy]

Paying to support a child you created is Slavery?.

That's the part I don't get. I don't see how anyone could view it as slavery.

 

[Sassylassie]

It's not my point of view Tracy it's Bears.

 

[tracy]

I got that Sassy. I agree with you.

 

[Ariadne]

Wait so your arguing women should not be responsible? If women are free of responsibility they should also be free of privelage.

I know the laws are set up sweet right now and you can force your will on the other gender..and it breaks your heart to change it, but tough.

For along time it was reverse and Women were at the beck and call of the man's whims. It wasn't right then, it isn't right with the tables reversed.

For their to be equal responsibility (ethically) their must be equal rights. Seeing as equal rights would be invasive to the woman, then one must have less rights (the male), no one is arguing that. But since the Male has less rights, Ethically he must have less responsibility.

Please point out the error in my logic in the above paragraph. As that seems to be Crux, keeping in mind that contraception and sex are equally the domain of the woman and the man. No one is arguing that in situations where it is not (ie rape) that different rules would not need to apply. No one is arguing a child should not be brought into this world without support, the counter logic being don't bring a child into this world if you can't support it. If it makes it easier, assume the above point about responsibility dealt with another subject in society (ie, the ownership of a business or a joint bank account)

It seems to be assumed, prior to the debate, that abortion is an option where women have sole control. This is not true. To assume that abortion is a legal privilege not enjoyed by men is begging the question. This premise, or concept, of expecting women to take their easy way out (abortion) is a male perspective. Women do not voluntarily enter into dangerous surgery that is known to have life long psychological effects. Men need to understand that abortion is a choice/"opt out"/response that women 'choose' when they are backed into a corner. Women, if there is a pregnancy, are the only one that has proof of the pregnancy; and it's nothing that she can hide. Men get off easy. If the dad is not enthusiastically promising the white picket fence, she's in a wee bit of a pickle - no mistake. Men should not mistake abortion for free will - women's free will is like mens: not pregnant.

Women and men, when pregnant, have numerous choices. If the pregnancy results in abortion then clearly something was wrong from the start. Men should not construe this eventuality into an option. It is the absence of options that results in abortion. Men contribute to those choices.

Women that have a child after a one night stand? Was that the other option in this discussion??? ... where they have no connection except drunken bar sex and he's supposed to pay for the next 18 years? Who is retarded ... him or her? If she's that stupid, why was he having sex with a retard? If he's that stupid, how did he know where to put it?