Deconstructing the veil.

[Devin Baldo]

How can the Quran adapt.

It seem a little irrelevant to act as if a belief system which still follows rules established more then a thousand years ago can adapt to the reality of the global mosaic of beliefs. Christianity has been challenged by science and in a large sense lost the conceptual battle as to how and why the world is the was it is. That aside how do you think that islam will be able to adapt considering there society is still represed under on conception and belief system. How can a book that specifically sets out how one should live over a thousand years ago be relevant considering the international nature of belief and the fact that no one belief is better then any others. How can islam survive and be compatible to not only western beliefs but asian belief systems given that it is an all or nothing argument. The idea that we should all become muslims is absolutely rediculous and i do not care who forwarde that argument or at what time(historically). Social constructivism has showed that beliefs are constructed by individuals to adapt to their circumstances and as such i believe strict muslim beliefs are irrelevant to modern global circumstances and many muslim realize this and are attempting to break the conceptual all or nothing conversion argument for a more incumpasing understanding argument that no one conception of god is right rather beliefs must adpt or will be challenges ad threatened by the global environment.

 

[tracy]

Northstar, it would be hard for her to go to church with me because I don't go to church , but she has been over to my apartment several times. Like I said, her family is lovely. They are kind people, and have adapted pretty well to this country. If they want to keep some of their traditions, I don't see the problem when they don't harm this country. I celebrate Canadian Thanksgiving down here. I don't get flack about it because it doesn't hurt anyone.

I have read a fair bit about Islam. It's like Christianity in a sense because you can find passages that seem to suggest bad behavior is ok, then others which say it isn't. It's impossible to read holy books which are 1000+ years old and take it all literally. Islam also has some very feminist aspects to it that I don't see in the Bible. Ever notice that Allah isn't refered to by gender like in Christianity (father, lord, etc)? Mohammed himself didn't seem like a neanderthal in terms of his behavior towards women. He was employed by a woman, he allowed a woman to command his troops in battle, he admonished people against female infanticide, he says the most important person in your life is your mother, etc. My view of Islam has evolved as I've known more muslim women. I used to feel closer to how you feel and I still think some things done in the name of Islam are obviously unacceptable. I just don't judge all muslims based on that. I see the diversity among muslims. They are north American, African, Middle Eastern, Asian, etc. Cultural practices have influenced who they are as people just as their religion has.

 

[tracy]

oh and Mikey, circumcism is for health. A nephew didn't have it done and suffered for years of infection.
So it is for health reasons and involves a slip of skin with very little pain or discomfort.

Here we are taking about genital mutilation which is a removal of the clitorius and is painful and traumatic, many have died from it and it impacts the health of these children and women for years. This is how we can understand it is still in practice. Cancer infections and pain lasts sometimes for life. it is over 16 million per year, and this is reported. There is more of this happening it just has not been reported.

Circumcision is not for health. No pediatric medical association in any western country recommends it anymore for that reason. Trust me, there are risks to male circumcisions and there is a lot of pain too. I work with babies and won't participate in them anymore.

Female genital mutilation can involve anything from the removal of the hood of the clitoris only (this is analogous to the male foreskin) to completely removing the external genitalia (called infibulation). It doesn't cause cancer, though it can lead to infection, bleeding, difficulty with sexual relations and childbirth. The reasons given for FGM are similar to those given supporting male circumcision: religion, cleanlyness, health issues, pleasing the opposite sex and tradition. FGM is most prevalent in African countries though it is also seen in the Middle East, Asia and western countries with populations from those areas. It crosses religious lines. Its practice predates Islam.

 

[CDNBear]

CDNbear

Is that similar to how Baptists used to hang niggers after church or everyone can get together on hating the Jews?

I don't understand why people can't get a grip on this whole neurotic "religious" horsepucky!

Where does hatred for some other religion or some oppressive dogma fit in when our nations invade and decimate somone else's country? Isn't religion a part of protecting Haiti's banana and sugar cane industry or punishing Nicaraguans for their "leftist" resistance to handing over acres of land to American industry?

Citing religious fanaticism is just swell for legitimizing a military intervention but it doesn't work in every case and in fact when you look at the behavior of Britain, France, America and Canada over the past several centuries, it's far more likely that war is an ocasion of neo-imperial expansionism than anything to do with religion. Religion is a useful umbrella kind of concept used to obscure many other things that are going on....

And i'll say it again, I have not advocated war in any thing I have posted to this site.

Things I have advocated...

Rewriting the ROE
My aligence to the IDF as brothers in arms
My belief that not all Muslims are evil
My belief that the powers that be, knew of 9/11' emminence
My undying support for our Troops(period)
My assertion the ITN should run for office
My belief that Sassy and Johnny should not be read while drinking any fluids
My belief that Fuzzylogic, has no idea what logic is
My belief that conspiracy nuts are just that
My belief that the liberal lap dogs here haven't got clue one what honour, truth, loyalty or reality are

I have worked in South America and I am probably more informed on the American interference down ther then you. As a side note, I was kicked out of Nicaragua, along with the rest of the mining crew I was working with by the the Nicaraguan Army, so lets start debating the Banana epublics and the Fake Banan wars started by the US.

Your liberal fanatiscism and hatred of free speach and/or thought has clouded your ability to read what I type clearly.

 

[CDNBear]

Circumcision is not for health. No pediatric group in any western country recommends it anymore for that reason. Trust me, there are risks to male circumcisions and there is a lot of pain too. I work with babies and won't participate in them anymore.

Good for you, I like some one willing to take a stand.

I myself have endured the procedure, and so have my boys. That was our choice, as it should be, No?

 

[CDNBear]

It seem a little irrelevant to act as if a belief system which still follows rules established more then a thousand years ago can adapt to the reality of the global mosaic of beliefs. Christianity has been challenged by science and in a large sense lost the conceptual battle as to how and why the world is the was it is. That aside how do you think that islam will be able to adapt considering there society is still represed under on conception and belief system. How can a book that specifically sets out how one should live over a thousand years ago be relevant considering the international nature of belief and the fact that no one belief is better then any others. How can islam survive and be compatible to not only western beliefs but asian belief systems given that it is an all or nothing argument. The idea that we should all become muslims is absolutely rediculous and i do not care who forwarde that argument or at what time(historically). Social constructivism has showed that beliefs are constructed by individuals to adapt to their circumstances and as such i believe strict muslim beliefs are irrelevant to modern global circumstances and many muslim realize this and are attempting to break the conceptual all or nothing conversion argument for a more incumpasing understanding argument that no one conception of god is right rather beliefs must adpt or will be challenges ad threatened by the global environment.

I agree with you 100%, but try and tell a Muslim anything about science and his/her religion, try telling anyone in a Baptist church in a dry town that evolution happend. They do not need to hang African Americans anymore, they'll hang evolutionists now, lol.

 

[Devin Baldo]

good point

Should I get a body guard now that that I believe in evolution? I am not trying to say that scientific belief systems are any better then religious one but rather that science has allowed for christianity to be balanced and objectively viewed. Some thing i believe are relevant from christianity, islam and Science so that I guess my point was that christianity or many decendent of christians have been released from the all or nothing conceptual argument that claims sole jurisdiction over what is acceptable as a belief. I DO NOT Believe that islam has undergone the same evolution and as such should be criticized in an objective manner in the west as missing the ability to adapt to other belief systems as fundementally altering some deficient aspects of their beliefs.

 

[tracy]

Good for you, I like some one willing to take a stand.

I myself have endured the procedure, and so have my boys. That was our choice, as it should be, No?

I have no problem with people choosing that for themselves. I'm just unwilling to be the one strapping a baby to a board and subjecting them to cosmetic surgery. It isn't generally a big issue because I only work night shift here and few circs are done at night (maybe one or two a week). When I used to rotate shifts, another nurse would always be willing to do it rather than me (I volunteer to take some other patients that other nurses have moral problems with too, like withdrawing life support, so my coworkers don't mind).

 

[CDNBear]

I have no problem with people choosing that for themselves. I'm just unwilling to be the one strapping a baby to a board and subjecting them to cosmetic surgery. It isn't generally a big issue because I only work night shift here and few circs are done at night (maybe one or two a week). When I used to rotate shifts, another nurse would always be willing to do it rather than me (I volunteer to take some other patients that other nurses have moral problems with too, like withdrawing life support, so my coworkers don't mind).

You know, you got me thinking, I was young when my boys were done, and I wasn't in the room. I was however in the room when my youngest, who btw is in my avatar, had his arm set after breaking it playing lacrosse.

The Doctor looked at my and said quite seriously and with a quivering face, "Sir this is going to hurt him, he has been suddated, but he is going to feel this and he might cry out." Ok I said, to which he pretty much repeted himself again, until, I said, OK! so what are you trying to say. "I just don't want you to hit me!" he said. I was agitated at the time, due to an incedent with the triage nurse. I'll save that one for a "Problems with haelth care" thread, lol.

So he set his arm, and Coda cried out, and it hurt me more then anything I have ever felt, and I have 12 pins, 4 plates, a Kevlar knee cap, a plate in my head. And I stoud there and cried, would I have them circumsised today? NO. But like we established, it all about freedoms. Ok I need a tissue.

 

[MikeyDB]

Tracy be careful you run the risk of being labelled an asshead or a "liberal" if you don't match the goosestep of our friend CDNbear!

My point was exactly that the prodedure arises not from any medical necessity but through a religious rite performed so frequently that it became an "automatic" procedure. Until we're prepared to examine the gestalt upon which our own society thrives (I don't expect CDNbear has either the capacity or open-mindedness to do this...) we fail to give meaning to the notion of tolerance. We tolerate some things in our society not because they're necessary or even appropriate in all cases. Mutilation of male babies is one thing, mutilation of female genitalia as practiced by Moslems is something yet again.

 

[MikeyDB]

But what's the point to all this nonesense? It's been proven to me satisfactorily that the majority of folk here at Canadian Content are right wing bigots with delusions of grandeur.

One wonders how this nation ever survived with the calibre of jerks shooting off their mouths that one encounters in a "discussion forum" like this one....

 

[CDNBear]

Tracy be careful you run the risk of being labelled an asshead or a "liberal" if you don't match the goosestep of our friend CDNbear!

My point was exactly that the prodedure arises not from any medical necessity but through a religious rite performed so frequently that it became an "automatic" procedure. Until we're prepared to examine the gestalt upon which our own society thrives (I don't expect CDNbear has either the capacity or open-mindedness to do this...) we fail to give meaning to the notion of tolerance. We tolerate some things in our society not because they're necessary or even appropriate in all cases. Mutilation of male babies is one thing, mutilation of female genitalia as practiced by Moslems is something yet again.

Did you miss the point I was making in both threads?
Apparently!!

Now you're trying to enlist others in your failed attemp to belittle me, by insiuating I'm nazi like, Oh brother, you are right up there with daniel and fuzzy, logic ain't your bag babe. But then again that is a liberal tactic, whenever you start losing an arguement or you boat starts sinking, just accuse the one that caught you of being a nazi neo con. How predictable. Go lie down before you hurt yourself.

 

[CDNBear]

But what's the point to all this nonesense? It's been proven to me satisfactorily that the majority of folk here at Canadian Content are right wing bigots with delusions of grandeur.

One wonders how this nation ever survived with the calibre of jerks shooting off their mouths that one encounters in a "discussion forum" like this one....

Your's aint even loaded. Nothin' but flowery hot air in there eh? bub.

 

[tracy]

So he set his arm, and Coda cried out, and it hurt me more then anything I have ever felt, and I have 12 pins, 4 plates, a Kevlar knee cap, a plate in my head. And I stoud there and cried, would I have them circumsised today? NO. But like we established, it all about freedoms. Ok I need a tissue.

I do a lot of procedures on babies that are painful or uncomfortable for them and always ask parents to step out for that reason. I don't always make them leave though, it depends on the circumstances. The baby will at least forget the experience. I'm sure it stays with parents forever. I've seen parents lose it several times, and the big guys are usually the first to choke up when their little one suffers. I can't tell you how many scary looking men have cried on my shoulders over the past couple of years.

 

[CDNBear]

And because I just realized we can add failing english 101, and the inablity to read to you list of issues.

I'll say this again only slower this time....

Things I have advocated...

Rewriting the ROE
My aligence to the IDF as brothers in arms
My belief that not all Muslims are evil
My belief that the powers that be, knew of 9/11' emminence
My undying support for our Troops(period)
My assertion the ITN should run for office
My belief that Sassy and Johnny should not be read while drinking any fluids
My belief that Fuzzylogic, has no idea what logic is
My belief that conspiracy nuts are just that
My belief that the liberal lap dogs here haven't got clue one what honour, truth, loyalty or reality are

Did you get it this time, I typed it as slow as I could. Would you like me to make the letters bigger and use bright colours.

 

[MikeyDB]

Ah now according to the metric of the CDNbear...we're getting somewhere...

Name calling and hurt feelings as a defense....

Aren't you busy plucking flies wings or sticking pins into dolls of Pierre Trudeau or something a little more at your cerebral capacity than trying to discuss something with an adult?

 

[CDNBear]

I do a lot of procedures on babies that are painful or uncomfortable for them and always ask parents to step out for that reason. I don't always make them leave though, it depends on the circumstances. The baby will at least forget the experience. I'm sure it stays with parents forever. I've seen parents lose it several times, and the big guys are usually the first to choke up when their little one suffers. I can't tell you how many scary looking men have cried on my shoulders over the past couple of years.

I bet, that's why nurses, paramedics and front line health care workers are always tops in my book.

We really need to start a health care thread, I have a good one, about the nurse that tried to catch me when the Doctor asked if I would like to cut the ambilical cord, and passed out. She ended up with a broken arm.

It's funny, I've seen inside me, I've seen inside friends, and was still able to to deliver, yet then and there, I was gone. lol.

 

[CDNBear]

Ah now according to the metric of the CDNbear...we're getting somewhere...

Name calling and hurt feelings as a defense....

Aren't you busy plucking flies wings or sticking pins into dolls of Pierre Trudeau or something a little more at your cerebral capacity than trying to discuss something with an adult?

Like I said, oh so predictable.

 

[MikeyDB]

I suppose it's only fair to expect you to resort to the infantile in defense of ideas that are when all is said and done, those fine assessment brought to discussion are about as cogent and as substantial as the hot air you seem to feel is the best vehicle for your contributions...other than name calling and thumb sucking of course...

 

[CDNBear]

I suppose it's only fair to expect you to resort to the infantile in defense of ideas that are when all is said and done, those fine assessment brought to discussion are about as cogent and as substantial as the hot air you seem to feel is the best vehicle for your contributions...other than name calling and thumb sucking of course...

That's right on que, attack the intellect of the one that caught ya, another liberal tactic, bully for you on your originality.

So what you are say, is, that you did not intentionaly use flowery words to belittel us?

Think and speak carefully hunny, I can read quite well, an ablity that seems to be lost on you.

You attacked me for a view I don't have and a statement I never made, and then run around saying don't be his friend, he's a nazi.

Answer please, minus the pompus speaches, they only do you a disservice.