A question for American's

[Toro]

Can you back that up?

I can, and I have here.

However, I don't know where the thread is now.

And it takes a bit of work. Since I'm feeling lazy, if you wish to know, you can figure out yourself.

This is how you do it.

Almost all defense companies are publicly listed. Go their web pages and download their financial data. Add all the revenues up then compare that to WalMart.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

agh, half that was nicked from the magna carta. It's all about fancy idealism "all men are created equal", is that a paradox or an oxymoron?. we all know this to be "set in the time it was written", .i.e. most of the fella's who wrote that were slave owners and very wealthy traders thank you very much.

Why would the US ever remove the system it has?, why?, it suits the purpose for which it was intended, make the traders (moden-day corporations) richer and the poorer poorer. I have nothing against American people, I really don't. But you have to admit, the similarities between the declaration of independence and the magna carta are strikingly similar.

the first one is about the rich barrons (and not actually the people) sitting down the king and forcing him to agree to their whims. the second?, wel rich *traders (business is power after all) sitting down the old establishment and telling them the score.

Nothing is ever new....it's like asking the barrons or traders why they haven't got rid of the current system that has proved oh so profitable...why the heck would they?

 

[I think not]

agh, half that was nicked from the magna carta. It's all about fancy idealism "all men are created equal", is that a paradox or an oxymoron?. we all know this to be "set in the time it was written", .i.e. most of the fella's who wrote that were slave owners and very wealthy traders thank you very much.

I can't even remember how many times we've been down this particular road, and after agreeing, you still spout the same nonsense over and over and over again. Viewing history with a contemporary eye carries a political agenda and nothing more. As for your "fancy" reference, I don't doubt it's incomprehensible to you. All "men" aren't created equal in the UK. Royal family ring a bell?

Why would the US ever remove the system it has?, why?, it suits the purpose for which it was intended, make the traders (moden-day corporations) richer and the poorer poorer. I have nothing against American people, I really don't. But you have to admit, the similarities between the declaration of independence and the magna carta are strikingly similar.

Ya, we all live in huts in the US, we keep our poor folk poorer because its in the best interests of corporations to smother their customer base. Try again, and this time try and think.

 

[Gonzo]

Great video. It looks like the Bush administration knows that they committed war crimes and are trying to cover themselves. Americans don't stand for this kind of behaviour. They'll want Bush to face justice. Maybe not the death penalty but he should be held accountable for any wrong doing.
I often rant against the US but it's always against the government, not the people. Bush lost the popular vote first time around and barely got in a second time. Most Americans didn't want him as their president. I think that all the lies and crimes of the Bush administration will come out.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

As usual, your taking it as a personal swipe. All men were not created equal at that time, and Jefferson owned slaves, washington etc. Why defend a lie?. it's simple. Lincoln knew it, why don't you?.

You know as well as I there are similarities, I dont buy (and actually neither do a lot of Americans) the simple "we sat em down and demanded everyone was free" stuff, there HAS to hve been more to it than that.

And huts?, have you ever been to Corfe Mullen? or Runnymede?, they are NOT huts, I can assure you of that. Besides, the setting doesn't matter, the situation does. You KNOW most of the signees of the declaration were pretty wealthy off of trading and such-like. As were the Barrons who wrote the Magna Carta.

The US Government fully acknowledge the part the Magna Carta has to play in the Declaration, I'm sure it's circumstance have been seen to be similar. THIS is the point that irritates me, you point out I "think the british empire is all sweetness and light", which I don't, and you POINT BLANK REFUSE to believe Washington and co could be anything other than....to quote Jim "Warrior" Hellwig "the greatest men that god ever put on the face of the earth"....which they certainly were not.

This is not a slight at the USA. this is a truth. They were very wealthy traders, and what they did, in a lot of ways was very similar, and like the magna carta, the declaration has been held aloft as almost mythical when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

 

[Toro]

Don't bother trying to back that up. I know for a fact that Wal-mart did not make more then $333,337,735,154 in last two years.

Actually, this was easy to find.

The defense companies did not "make" that much.

WalMart's revenues last year was $315.6 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=WMT&annual

Lockheed Martin had $37.2 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=LMT&annual

Northrop Grumman was $30.7 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=noc&annual

General Dynamics had $21.2 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=GD&annual

Raytheon had $21.9 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=rTn&annual

Boeing was $54.8 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=noc&annual

of which roughly half are defense systems

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-06-153564&Type=HTML

Those are the five largest defense contractors in the United States. No one else comes close.

For example the number six defense company is L-3, with total sales of $9.4 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=lll&annual

Those six add up to $147.8 billion, less than half the sales of Wal-Mart.

Total GDP of the United States is $13.2 trillion. Those six companies sales accounted for 1.1% of US GDP.

http://bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdpnewsrelease.htm

And since GDP is a measurement of value added, not sales, the contribution of defense to the US economy is even less.

 

[I think not]

As usual, your taking it as a personal swipe. All men were not created equal at that time, and Jefferson owned slaves, washington etc. Why defend a lie?. it's simple. Lincoln knew it, why don't you?.

You know as well as I there are similarities, I dont buy (and actually neither do a lot of Americans) the simple "we sat em down and demanded everyone was free" stuff, there HAS to hve been more to it than that.

And huts?, have you ever been to Corfe Mullen? or Runnymede?, they are NOT huts, I can assure you of that. Besides, the setting doesn't matter, the situation does. You KNOW most of the signees of the declaration were pretty wealthy off of trading and such-like. As were the Barrons who wrote the Magna Carta.

The US Government fully acknowledge the part the Magna Carta has to play in the Declaration, I'm sure it's circumstance have been seen to be similar. THIS is the point that irritates me, you point out I "think the british empire is all sweetness and light", which I don't, and you POINT BLANK REFUSE to believe Washington and co could be anything other than....to quote Jim "Warrior" Hellwig "the greatest men that god ever put on the face of the earth"....which they certainly were not.

This is not a slight at the USA. this is a truth. They were very wealthy traders, and what they did, in a lot of ways was very similar, and like the magna carta, the declaration has been held aloft as almost mythical when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

Daz, quite frankly I'm tired repeating to you the same issues over and over again. Believe what you want, I can honestly care less.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

And you likewise.

I just don't follow blindly and unquestionably.

it's as simple as that.

 

[CDNBear]

CDNBear

You are talking about the Declaration of Independence, not the United States Constitution. There is nothing in the Constitution to dissolve the government. The President can be removed from office after he/she has been impeached. Impeachment does NOT mean (contrary to popular belief) removal from office. Clinton was impeached, but not removed from office.

The Declaration of Independence states;



What you are suggesting is another revolution.

In addition, you claim only the rich and powerful run for office. This has not been true for the Presidency or any other public office. You need to check your resources.

Thanx ITN, my bad!

 

[CDNBear]

I can, and I have here.

However, I don't know where the thread is now.

And it takes a bit of work. Since I'm feeling lazy, if you wish to know, you can figure out yourself.

This is how you do it.

Almost all defense companies are publicly listed. Go their web pages and download their financial data. Add all the revenues up then compare that to WalMart.

I beat ya to it, and you are wrong.

 

[CDNBear]

Actually, this was easy to find.

The defense companies did not "make" that much.

WalMart's revenues last year was $315.6 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=WMT&annual

Lockheed Martin had $37.2 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=LMT&annual

Northrop Grumman was $30.7 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=noc&annual

General Dynamics had $21.2 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=GD&annual

Raytheon had $21.9 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=rTn&annual

Boeing was $54.8 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=noc&annual

of which roughly half are defense systems

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001193125-06-153564&Type=HTML

Those are the five largest defense contractors in the United States. No one else comes close.

For example the number six defense company is L-3, with total sales of $9.4 billion.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=lll&annual

Those six add up to $147.8 billion, less than half the sales of Wal-Mart.

Total GDP of the United States is $13.2 trillion. Those six companies sales accounted for 1.1% of US GDP.

http://bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdpnewsrelease.htm

And since GDP is a measurement of value added, not sales, the contribution of defense to the US economy is even less.

Ok, I won't get snotty, but you missed a few things. You listed "primary" companies. There are "secondary" companies and "terciary" companies. On the surface, you are most right, but the surface is just that, the top. You missed Haliburton btw. You also missed a few dozen other service providers. How about the payroll, to the Troops, the cost of fuel. Please try not to simplify things to fit your agenda.

The military industrial complex, is not just arms my friend. It is a huge industry, encopassing all manner of industries. Your simple example just shows how little people really know about what is going on.

The number I posted is in fact the cost of just the Iraq war. So please explain to us all again how Wal-mart is making more?

Check it out for yourself... http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

 

[CDNBear]

CDNBear
What you are suggesting is another revolution.

In addition, you claim only the rich and powerful run for office. This has not been true for the Presidency or any other public office. You need to check your resources.

Sure, why not. I hear American's complain about their for of Government all the time. In here as well as out in r/l. Go check out some militia sites, lol.

Please give me some credit, I was merely asking a theoretical question. Why or why not?

Name one President, since Eisenhower, that was not financially "well off"?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

So would you go along with my theory that the declaration was indeed like the Magna Carta CDN?.

In that everyone seems to think it's about democracy and freedom, and that both infact derived from situations when rich landowners/traders/barrons, after a long "bust up" forced those in power to sign a document that made the powers that be agree with their whims, while they declare "it was for the people" unless you look a bit deeper.....

cus ITN seems to be having trouble with this point, surely it's reasonable to assume this?

 

[CDNBear]

So would you go along with my theory that the declaration was indeed like the Magna Carta CDN?.

In that everyone seems to think it's about democracy and freedom, and that both infact derived from situations when rich landowners/traders/barrons, after a long "bust up" forced those in power to sign a document that made the powers that be agree with their whims, while they declare "it was for the people" unless you look a bit deeper.....

cus ITN seems to be having trouble with this point, surely it's reasonable to assume this?

Oh I so know I'm setting myself up for another whoopin'!!

Yes on both accounts.

But they did not plagorize, they re-invented it as a distinctly American document. Its basis may be in the Magna Carta, much like Canada's, but its heart was pure Patriot. Besides, it is one of the most noble historical documents there is.

They were all business men of some sort, it wasn't as if they were millin' around the Olde Towne Pub with the toshers to come up with a new kinda Country. It was for the wealthy, they had the most to loss, not the poor.


Just a side note, seeing as I'm already going to get yelled at again, may as well make it worth it, the Haudenosaunee Constitution, was used as a template for the American Constitution.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Oh I so know I'm setting myself up for another whoopin'!!

Yes on both accounts.

But they did not plagorize, they re-invented it as a distinctly American document. Its basis may be in the Magna Carta, much like Canada's, but its heart was pure Patriot. Besides, it is one of the most noble historical documents there is.

They were all business men of some sort, it wasn't as if they were millin' around the Olde Towne Pub with the toshers to come up with a new kinda Country. It was for the wealthy, they had the most to loss, not the poor.


Just a side note, seeing as I'm already going to get yelled at again, may as well make it worth it, the Haudenosaunee Constitution, was used as a template for the American Constitution.

hehehe exactly, completely agree there, I just find it rather irritating that both documents ah so full of bravado and bang on about these rights being for the people......when they are both nothing of the sort...what both should say is: "we, the select group of people privilledged enough to have the right to sign this document agree that all men are born equal*" "*unless your talking about those nasty peasants or black slaves"

 

[CDNBear]

hehehe exactly, completely agree there, I just find it rather irritating that both documents ah so full of bravado and bang on about these rights being for the people......when they are both nothing of the sort...what both should say is: "we, the select group of people privilledged enough to have the right to sign this document agree that all men are born equal*" "*unless your talking about those nasty peasants or black slaves"

I'm not to sure if I would go that far, but something to that effect. I think they knew they had something special, and wanted to control it themselves.

 

[Toro]

Ok, I won't get snotty, but you missed a few things. You listed "primary" companies. There are "secondary" companies and "terciary" companies. On the surface, you are most right, but the surface is just that, the top. You missed Haliburton btw. You also missed a few dozen other service providers. How about the payroll, to the Troops, the cost of fuel. Please try not to simplify things to fit your agenda.

The military industrial complex, is not just arms my friend. It is a huge industry, encopassing all manner of industries. Your simple example just shows how little people really know about what is going on.

The number I posted is in fact the cost of just the Iraq war. So please explain to us all again how Wal-mart is making more?

Check it out for yourself... http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

My "agenda"? lol. I have no agenda.

I'm a numbers guy. I have extensive experience analyzing the US economy and the various industries that comprise the economy. Its what I do for a living. And what I know - as anyone who does any work on the US economy knows - the defense industry is a very small portion of the economy.

Its false to equate the spending on the Iraqi war with the sales versus Wal-Mart. Its comparing apples and oranges because you counting things like wages that would be paid anyways, transfers to locals in Iraq, payments for non-American services (which there is many), etc., etc., etc.

You could also say the exact same thing about all the secondary and tertiary industries that surround Wal-Mart - transportation, construction, fuel, etc.

 

[cortex]

The right to bare arms----thats always puzzled me----. We dont have that in our constitution but no cop has ever harrassed me for wearing t-shirts in the summer.

 

[CDNBear]

My "agenda"? lol. I have no agenda.

I'm a numbers guy. I have extensive experience analyzing the US economy and the various industries that comprise the economy. Its what I do for a living. And what I know - as anyone who does any work on the US economy knows - the defense industry is a very small portion of the economy.

Its false to equate the spending on the Iraqi war with the sales versus Wal-Mart. Its comparing apples and oranges because you counting things like wages that would be paid anyways, transfers to locals in Iraq, payments for non-American services (which there is many), etc., etc., etc.

You could also say the exact same thing about all the secondary and tertiary industries that surround Wal-Mart - transportation, construction, fuel, etc.

Wages change as wars begin, Troops get danger pay, the masses of assembly line personel get OT.

Why are you trying to minimize the industrial factor of the military machine. It is a known fact wars make money. Wal mart has a set foward momentum, war does not, they can escalate and they can go on for years. Then there are those wonderful "rebuilding" contracts. I'm a Welder/Fitter by license, I made the money I needed to start my own business, by doing large reconstruction contracts, globally. Bin der don dat, so to speak.

The cost of the Iraq war is a direct reflection of the complex at work. Equating a scratch in the MIC, by listing the big names in military munitions and equipment, and totalling their respective profits, then equating them to Wal Mart is more of a fruit based comparison.

Besides you missed Goodyear, the 37"x16" Goodyear Wrangler M/T is a munitions listed product. Up until the HMMWV became a popular civilian vehicle, and the entire unit was delisted. I can do this all day.

It is an agenda. Your agenda is, you do not beleive that the US is a military based economy driven by the MIC.

My agenda, yes it is. War is good business. Any economist will tell you that.

Look, I'm not going to change your mind, I just Thought I'ld post the truth of the matter. I really hate sounding like the conspiracy widbags, lol.

 

[Toro]