Objections of disbelievers to the Prophet

[Torch light]

1- Their claim that he married a child, the mean Aisha:, mother of the believers
Mohammed - peace to him - died when he was 63 years old; he was not elderly when he married Aisha, and she was not a child; she was young: true, but she was not a child. The disbelievers who do not fear God, and so they transgress on His messenger, they insist on this point, depending on some narrations from some Muslims.
2- The Prophet had many wives. This is lawful in God's religion, which is also true in the Torah that many prophets had many wives: like Prophet Noah, Abraham, and Jacob: surnamed Israel: who had at least 3 wives, David: had seven wives and more than 90 female slaves (concubines), Solomon had so many wives, Judge Gedone had many wives, etc.
3- Their objection that if he is a prophet, why should he have any wife!?
He is a human being like other people and like other prophets; so all prophets had wives except Jesus and John Baptist who did not marry according to their special circumstances. John Baptist was killed and he was not old, while Jesus Christ's mission was short in time, and he was an angel that came from heaven: he had his wives and his parents in heaven; he came to carry out his mission as commanded by his Lord.

[Some associaters and idolaters among the Arab said: “Had Mohammed been a prophet, he would not have married many women; wasn’t Jesus single who did not marry?
Moreover, had he been a prophet, he would have done for us the miracles as had Moses and Jesus done.”
Therefore, this aya was revealed:]
Quran 13: 40, which means:
(We sent [many] messengers before you [O Mohammed], and We assigned for them wives and children [so why do these ‘associaters or idolaters’ disapprove of your marriage?]

And no messenger could work any miracle [of His own accord] except as God gave [him his specific miracle.]
For every era was a book [suitable for that time which included statements suitable for that era, and a suitable messenger and suitable miracles for that community.])

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/13.htm#a13_40

And there are other objections, which I might discuss in the following posts.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

1- Their claim that he married a child, the mean Aisha:, mother of the believers
Mohammed - peace to him - died when he was 63 years old; he was not elderly when he married Aisha, and she was not a child; she was young: true, but she was not a child.

She was 6 years old when the marriage contract was made and 9 when the marriage was consummated. Nine years old is a pre-pubescent child.

 

[Serryah]

1- Their claim that he married a child, the mean Aisha:, mother of the believers

Well not a claim, it's truth, and fact, recorded history.

Mohammed - peace to him - died when he was 63 years old; he was not elderly when he married Aisha,

He was older than her by a lot.

and she was not a child; she was young: true, but she was not a child.

History says she was a child, under 10.

But here's the thing; I understand that at the time, in that region, things were different, life was different, and what was acceptable was different. I don't look at things done in history with the full focus of the world today as judgment for what happened then. So unlike most, I don't condemn Mohammed for having a child-bride.

But I DO condemn the people who believe such a thing is acceptable TODAY, including Muslims of the Faith.

The disbelievers who do not fear God, and so they transgress on His messenger, they insist on this point, depending on some narrations from some Muslims.

"Some" narration from "Some" Muslims.

No; it's based on fact. Unlike a lot of people from the Bible and Torah, Mohammed is a "modern" Prophet and lived in a time when history was recorded by many.

2- The Prophet had many wives.

Sure did.

This is lawful in God's religion,

Polygamy usually is, because it's a way to control women and show status/power.

which is also true in the Torah that many prophets had many wives:

True.

like Prophet Noah, Abraham, and Jacob: surnamed Israel: who had at least 3 wives, David: had seven wives and more than 90 female slaves (concubines), Solomon had so many wives, Judge Gedone had many wives, etc.

They all did; men of many different faiths had many wives. For a lot of reasons. Usually power.

3- Their objection that if he is a prophet, why should he have any wife!?

That's NOT the objection, if someone told you that, they lied to you.

He is a human being like other people and like other prophets; so all prophets had wives except Jesus and John Baptist who did not marry according to their special circumstances.

Well, I've doubts about Jesus not having a wife.

John Baptist was killed and he was not old, while Jesus Christ's mission was short in time, and he was an angel that came from heaven: he had his wives and his parents in heaven; he came to carry out his mission as commanded by his Lord.

Yeah... that's your belief but likely not reality.

[Some associaters and idolaters among the Arab said: “Had Mohammed been a prophet, he would not have married many women; wasn’t Jesus single who did not marry?
Moreover, had he been a prophet, he would have done for us the miracles as had Moses and Jesus done.”
Therefore, this aya was revealed:]
Quran 13: 40, which means:
(We sent [many] messengers before you [O Mohammed], and We assigned for them wives and children [so why do these ‘associaters or idolaters’ disapprove of your marriage?]

And no messenger could work any miracle [of His own accord] except as God gave [him his specific miracle.]
For every era was a book [suitable for that time which included statements suitable for that era, and a suitable messenger and suitable miracles for that community.])

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/13.htm#a13_40

And there are other objections, which I might discuss in the following posts.

 

[Torch light]

She was 6 years old when the marriage contract was made and 9 when the marriage was consummated. Nine years old is a pre-pubescent child.

I thought you might be, to some extent, scientific with your approach to many subjects; how do you believe anything and it is historical and there are many different narrations to that?

 

[Torch light]

He was older than her by a lot.

so what? If he is 50 or so? Females get maturity earlier than males, and females reach menopause at 45 or above, while man remains sexually active until later old age.

History says she was a child, under 10.

So it is history that is much variable; if you want to be sure, see the different opinions about incidents and conflicts at this present time.
Those who object that man may marry after his middle age!? they object to marriage but they give to adultery and relations!! and homosexuality.. and to marriage they object.
So it is out of hypocrisy (and social bounds) that you claim: you do not want legal sex (through legal marriage) when you are still active, while the wife has finished her capacity. Therefore, many of them make sexual relations outside the door.
Now, the West does not want merely to forgive homosexuality, but to enhance it and increase it even teaching innocent children in schools about that.

But here's the thing; I understand that at the time, in that region, things were different, life was different, and what was acceptable was different. I don't look at things done in history with the full focus of the world today as judgment for what happened then. So unlike most, I don't condemn Mohammed for having a child-bride.

But I DO condemn the people who believe such a thing is acceptable TODAY, including Muslims of the Faith.

Children cannot be married, because their decision (to agree or to refuse) is legally defective until they reach puberty.

 

[Torch light]

Polygamy usually is, because it's a way to control women and show status/power.

You deem it in this way, while it is a social solution, when the number of women is more than the number of men, and man is capable of having more than one wife.
This is better than the man in the West (not everyone of course) who has his wife, and he goes to chase illegal relations outside the house.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You deem it in this way, while it is a social solution, when the number of women is more than the number of men, and man is capable of having more than one wife.
This is better than the man in the West (not everyone of course) who has his wife, and he goes to chase illegal relations outside the house.

Yep, and because the population is pretty much even, the Arab system ensures a large supply of young men with no hope of ever having a wife. Ready-made jihadis.

 

[Torch light]

That's NOT the objection, if someone told you that, they lied to you.

It may not be YOUR objection, but the objection of many adversaries of Islam and of Mohammed; some people think it is a defect that a prophet should have a wife, their idea about the prophet is like that of a god, while he is only a good man.
So he eats and drinks (and therefore, he should pass bowel motion and urination), like what God said about those who exaggerate about Jesus and his mother.

Quran 5: 75, which means:
(The Messiah son of Mary, was only a messenger ; [so many] messengers passed away before him [so why do you glorify him alone, excluding others?]
His mother was a true believer [in the Ten Commandments of her Lord]; [the Messiah and his mother] both used to eat food [and anyone who eats food, has to relieve nature, therefore how could they be gods?]
See [Mohammed] how We make clear the revelations to them; then see how deluded they are [away from the truth!])

The complete explanation of this aya is here:
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/5.htm#a5_78

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You deem it in this way, while it is a social solution, when the number of women is more than the number of men, and man is capable of having more than one wife.
This is better than the man in the West (not everyone of course) who has his wife, and he goes to chase illegal relations outside the house.

Any evidence that the sex balance in the Arab population was ever more than a point or two off even?

Oh, right. You don't do evidence.

 

[Serryah]

so what? If he is 50 or so?

By today's standards, that'd be totally wrong.

By the standards of Mohammed's time... acceptable.

Females get maturity earlier than males, and females reach menopause at 45 or above, while man remains sexually active until later old age.

And that has what to do with the price of cheese in Greece?

So it is history that is much variable;

True, history is written by the victors, as they say.

if you want to be sure, see the different opinions about incidents and conflicts at this present time.

I'll listen to the experts and not people with a 'bone' in the fight of who is more Pure (or who is the Better Prophet).

Those who object that man may marry after his middle age!?

No one objects to men marrying after middle age. What they object to is a middle age man marrying and consummating that marriage with a child.

they object to marriage but they give to adultery and relations!!

That's a lie, but... okay.

and homosexuality.. and to marriage they object.

See above.

So it is out of hypocrisy (and social bounds) that you claim:

Again, see above - by today's standards, yes, out of social bounds, but the standards of the time, not so much. I can at least understand it.

you do not want legal sex (through legal marriage) when you are still active, while the wife has finished her capacity.

I'm not saying that at all, you're saying I'm saying it; big difference.

Therefore, many of them make sexual relations outside the door.

Not saying that, either.

Now, the West does not want merely to forgive homosexuality, but to enhance it and increase it even teaching innocent children in schools about that.

Well, since I am Bi AND gender fluid, of course I'm going to support homosexuality, because I realize too that it's been a part of humanity since humanity became a... dominant species on this planet. And it's a thing you find in the animal kingdom itself. But if you want to discuss the issue of homosexuality and other GLBTQIA stuff, go to the thread where it's being discussed.

Children cannot be married, because their decision (to agree or to refuse) is legally defective until they reach puberty.

And yet... child brides happen in Islam, in Judaism, in Christianity, in a LOT of religions. And Aisha was 10 when Mohammed took her to the marriage bed.

A child.

Who could not fight back even if she was able to.

But women and girls have always been chattel, property; even today they still are in many countries, including most Islamic countries. Even though as emotional and thoughtful humans, we should know better. But the desires of Men supersede everything.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

All Islam ever provided was yet another excuse for Arab tribes and wannabe sheiks, shahs, and caliphs to slaughter each other. Muhammad wasn't even cold in his grave when the followers of The Religion of Peace started chopping each other up in his name.

 

[Serryah]

You deem it in this way,

Because that's what it is.

while it is a social solution, when the number of women is more than the number of men,

You will not find the number of the genders THAT divided in today's society. In history, yes, because men risked their lives in fighting and so on (because their belief was women couldn't/shouldn't fight). And at a basic level, Polygamy is the human equivalent to, say, a stallion and his herd of mares. It's all so his genetics can be spread out as much and quickly as possible.

and man is capable of having more than one wife.

Funny that you don't mention a wife having more than one man? Why is that...?

This is better than the man in the West (not everyone of course) who has his wife, and he goes to chase illegal relations outside the house.

Depends on your point of view I suppose. Polygamy is just "legitimized" adultry. A case of a man getting to have his cake and bed another cake, too. Even concubines, when accepted, is a way to legitimize adultry.

All those men you mentioned who had multiple wives? David, Solomon, Abraham? Yep, beyond having one wife, their slaves, concubines and other wives were all a way to legitimately get more women because they thought that was how it had to be.

 

[Serryah]

It may not be YOUR objection, but the objection of many adversaries of Islam and of Mohammed; some people think it is a defect that a prophet should have a wife, their idea about the prophet is like that of a god, while he is only a good man.

Had Aisha been older, no one would care that he had her as a wife.

It's that she was TEN that is the issue.

Modern sensibilities are funny that way.

So he eats and drinks (and therefore, he should pass bowel motion and urination), like what God said about those who exaggerate about Jesus and his mother.

No one is denying Mohammed was a man, either, like all others.

Funny in that how he's a man in all ways, until you bring God into the picture and then somehow he's a pure saint and without flaws and agendas that all humans have.

Quran 5: 75, which means:
(The Messiah son of Mary, was only a messenger ; [so many] messengers passed away before him [so why do you glorify him alone, excluding others?]
His mother was a true believer [in the Ten Commandments of her Lord]; [the Messiah and his mother] both used to eat food [and anyone who eats food, has to relieve nature, therefore how could they be gods?]
See [Mohammed] how We make clear the revelations to them; then see how deluded they are [away from the truth!])

The complete explanation of this aya is here:
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/5.htm#a5_78

Funny how you have no issue bringing up Jesus, but will hate on those who believe in Jesus more than you, in the same way you believe in Mohammed.

Islam and Christianity are brothers in religion, and you hate each other for it.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I thought you might be, to some extent, scientific with your approach to many subjects; how do you believe anything and it is historical and there are many different narrations to that?

That makes even less sense than your usual arguments. I believe things that the evidence justifies, as you ought to know by now, I've said so often enough. Aisha's age at consummation is not a scientific question, it's a matter of historical record. I did a search before posting to verify my memory, and every source I found, including what certainly appear to be authoritative reports from Islamic clerics and scholars, agreed that she was nine years old at the time. There's even an isnad that records Aisha herself as agreeing.

A nine year old girl is a child.

 

[Torch light]

That makes even less sense than your usual arguments. I believe things that the evidence justifies, as you ought to know by now, I've said so often enough. Aisha's age at consummation is not a scientific question, it's a matter of historical record. I did a search before posting to verify my memory, and every source I found, including what certainly appear to be authoritative reports from Islamic clerics and scholars, agreed that she was nine years old at the time. There's even an isnad that records Aisha herself as agreeing.

A nine year old girl is a child.

I will not agree or disagree; I am not certain about history.
E.g. the present Ukraine war: you have your personal opinion, and many others have different opinions: while it is a present conflict, and not more than one thousand years ago.
Moreover, in the Quran nothing is said about this subject.
Therefore, you, adversaries of Mohammed, you incline to see it as you like and insist on that; anyhow, the marriage is never to be in compulsion, and the woman should be asked clearly does she agree or not about the marriage.
So according to my respect and belief in the noble Prophet Mohammed more than anyone else, I agree about anything he did by His Lord's permission. While you dare to speak badly and without respect about him; no wonder because prior to that you blasphemed against God Almighty and you are only mortals with the dirt filling your guts.

 

[Torch light]

Funny in that how he's a man in all ways, until you bring God into the picture and then somehow he's a pure saint and without flaws and agendas that all humans have.

Not funny.
The prophet, any prophet, is a man: a good man: kind and merciful to the orphan and the weak, and many prophets were themselves orphans, like Moses and Mohammed, to feel pitty for the orphan and the poor.

The difference is that the prophet, any prophet, is a model or a lesson to others to imitate his conduct and obey his words, so if his flaws are so many, people will fall into such flaws.

Therefore, God assigned some angels to go behind and before the prophet and angels to correct him if he is about to do a mistake, and he would refrain from that mistake.

Abu Abd-Allah said to me in this respect: {"Sometimes when I am about to do some bad deed, I hear or perceive someone saying to me: "You are an old man; this is shameful and not proper for you."}

Quran 13: 11, which means:
(For the [guide], there are pursuing [angels] from before and behind him, to guard [that guide] from God‘s am‘r [: the evil creatures, like devils, jinns and evil human souls.])
quran-ayat.com/pret/13.htm#a13_12

Unless sometimes, God allows some mistakes to be done by that prophet or messenger: to demonstrate to people that he was only a human being like them and can commit mistakes: like Prophet Jonah who did not obey God's command and embarked on a ship and a whale swallowed him, etc.

 

[Serryah]

Not funny.

It's sarcasm, Torchy.

The prophet, any prophet, is a man: a good man: kind and merciful to the orphan and the weak, and many prophets were themselves orphans, like Moses and Mohammed, to feel pitty for the orphan and the poor.

From Mohammed's life story... he was no prophet then.

The difference is that the prophet, any prophet, is a model or a lesson to others to imitate his conduct and obey his words, so if his flaws are so many, people will fall into such flaws.

You started out well...

Therefore, God assigned some angels to go behind and before the prophet and angels to correct him if he is about to do a mistake, and he would refrain from that mistake.

And then said this.

Torchy, if a prophet is supposed to be the messenger of God, and examplify how God wants our life to be, they shouldn't NEED Angels around them to correct them. Being a prophet should mean they already KNOW what God would want in how they want to behave and act. It's never said anywhere that Angels had to be there to correct people like Moses from their acts; rather they knew, or got it from God, how to act.

By suggesting Angels had to help direct a prophet, you lessen the power of the prophet to be a messenger from God.

Abu Abd-Allah said to me in this respect: {"Sometimes when I am about to do some bad deed, I hear or perceive someone saying to me: "You are an old man; this is shameful and not proper for you."}

So is Abu Abd-Allah a prophet then?

Or is he someone that has a conscience?

Cause similar things happen to me when decisions are in front of me that are "Bad". Does that mean I'm a prophet now?

You understand the problem the above suggests?

If you want Mohammed to be a prophet, and the last one, then you're not doing a good job of presenting him as being the direct line to God to spread God's message. Rather that he was a man, fallible, who had a conscience/angels to tell him bad from good...

And historically he messed up, a lot, to be a prophet of God.

Quran 13: 11, which means:
(For the [guide], there are pursuing [angels] from before and behind him, to guard [that guide] from God‘s am‘r [: the evil creatures, like devils, jinns and evil human souls.])
quran-ayat.com/pret/13.htm#a13_12

More Ayat's I won't bother with because you are cherry picking them for your point, not full context.

Unless sometimes, God allows some mistakes to be done by that prophet or messenger: to demonstrate to people that he was only a human being like them and can commit mistakes: like Prophet Jonah who did not obey God's command and embarked on a ship and a whale swallowed him, etc.

Well except that the story of Jonah and the whale isn't true; whales would never swallow a human and the human survive. It's at most a story to teach a lesson. Kind'a like Grimm's Fairy Tales.

And if God is allowing his chosen prophet to make mistakes then there's problems for the prophet.

1. How can God trust this person and only them, if they're making mistakes?

2. If mistakes are made, and God allowed it, then... that undermines the Goodness of what God is supposed to be. Unless it is an Evil God...

3. How is the messenger any different than, say, a priest, a Rabbi, an Imam then? What makes this prophet so "extra special"?

4. What makes someone like this any different than someone else claiming to be a messenger/prophet of God, from any other religion? Past or present? I mean, Warren Jeffs is supposedly a Prophet of God. David Koresh was supposedly one... they made mistakes... but how are they different from Mohammed? From Jesus?

Here's the thing.

If YOU want to believe Mohammed was a prophet without failings - yet had failings he needed angels to direct him about - then that's YOUR faith.

Because Mohammed isn't here now to answer these questions of why, we can only guess at what his answers would be. And for many people, guessing based on a book that is biased towards Mohammed, is NOT a way to give or gain faith.

You're free to believe as you will, Torchy, but your continual push for others to believe as you do goes against the freedoms of thought and choice that were given to us.

Unless you are demanding people not of your faith convert.

In which case, how is your faith then any different than the Christians?

 

[Torch light]

4- their claim that Mohammed studied the Torah and the Gospel and quoted the Quran from them.
The answer: Prophet Mohammed was illiterate who did not read or write Arabic, and he did not know Hebrew or other languages, and did not go outside Mecca but only for a short trip to Syria or Levan in trade.

[The Prophet – salam to him – wished that he would know the writing in order to write the Quran by his own hand, rather than his companions, so as to preserve it against alteration; therefore, this aya was revealed:]
Quran 29: 48, which means:
(48. You [Mohammed] were not [able] to read any book before [the Quran], nor to write it with your right hand; for then those who follow falsehood would have doubted.)

Moreover, the Quran agrees in general outlines with the Torah, but it is not a copy of it; it has many differences.
So one who studies the Quran will find it different from the Torah in many statements by making something lawful and by mitigating a heavy duty into a milder one.
Therefore, many Jews objected to Prophet Mohammed and said to him: You are a liar; this statement is not in the Torah!

Quran 16: 101-103, which mean:
(101. When We substitute a revelation [in the Quran] in place of another revelation [of the Torah] — and God knows best what He reveals [of statements proper for every nation ] — the [Jews] say [to our messenger Mohammed]: ―"You are a forger." But most of them do not know [the truth about the original Torah.]
102. Say: "[Gabriel] the Holy Spirit has brought the [statement about fasting] from your Lord with the true [religion], in order to strengthen [the faith of] those who believe, and as guidance and good news [of prosperity in Paradise] for Muslims."
103. We know very well that the [Jews] say: "It is only a human being who teaches [Mohammed the Torah]." [So God replied to them, and said:] The language of [the Torah], to which they wickedly point, is foreign [or non-Arabic: which is the Hebrew]; while this [Quran] is in clear Arabic [and does not include any Hebrew or Syriac words.])

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/16.htm#a16_101

So because of its similarity to the Torah in monotheism, some Jews converted in the time of Prophet Mohammed, like Abdullah son of Salam and his group.

Quran 28: 52-53, which means:
52. Those [Jews and Christians who converted] to whom We gave the Book [: the Torah] before the Qur'an - they do believe in the [Quran.]
53. And when the [Quran] is rehearsed to them, they say: "We believe in it; it is the truth from our Lord; indeed we have been submissive [to God alone] from before this [Quran.]" c)
....................................................................................................................................................................................................................

c i.e. we were submissive to the command of our Lord, complying with the matter of monotheism, associating none with our Lord in the worship; then when we heard the Quran, we believed in it, because it invites people to the monotheism as does the Torah invite to the monotheism and to discarding the idols.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/28.htm#a28_53

 

[Torch light]

And if God is allowing his chosen prophet to make mistakes then there's problems for the prophet...

2. If mistakes are made, and God allowed it, then... that undermines the Goodness of what God is supposed to be.

I mean: God let the mistake be done by the Prophet without the angel telling him: this is wrong.
Like what Jonah did and David did for example.

I mean: God allowed this to occur, not that He made it lawful to the Prophet, but He let it happen without alerting the prophet to its wrong: to make this a lesson to people that the prophet is a human like them, and he might make mistakes.

 

[Torch light]

From Mohammed's life story... he was no prophet then.

How is this!?

if a prophet is supposed to be the messenger of God, and examplify how God wants our life to be, they shouldn't NEED Angels around them to correct them. Being a prophet should mean they already KNOW what God would want in how they want to behave and act. It's never said anywhere that Angels had to be there to correct people like Moses from their acts; rather they knew, or got it from God, how to act.

By suggesting Angels had to help direct a prophet, you lessen the power of the prophet to be a messenger from God.

It is as such.

The prophet learns more and more, and his knowledge increases by the revelation: the revelation comes as a direct revelation from God and as a revelation by the angels.

Even the angels themselves said to God, as in the Quran 2: 32, which means:
(They said: ―Glory be to You [i.e. You are above doing any mistake; You create not anything unless for a wise purpose; You are Wiser than creating anything uselessly!]
We know nothing [of the unknown future] other than what You have acquainted us with;
it is You [alone] Who are the All-Knowing [about what is unknown to us], the Ever-Wise [in your creation: You create not anything in vain.])

The prophet does not know everything, and he is told to ask God to increase his knowledge.
Quran 20: 114, which means:
(Say: "My Lord, increase me in knowledge.")

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/20.htm#a20_114