There is the evidence.
- Thread starter Torch light
- Start date
Yes you do, and then you immediately tell me there's one thing that doesn't.
No, at no point in that post did I make a statement of certainty. It "seems," I wrote. "SEEMS." You do know what seems means, don't you? In the context of science, which is what the discussion was about, it means that according to the best data and theories we have, that appears to be a correct description of reality. The door is always open to modifications.
Don't think I've ever said that either. I've said I don't believe he does, because the evidence and arguments offered in support of the claim are insufficient to justify accepting it as true. That's not the same thing as believing he doesn't exist, a subtle but crucial philosophical distinction that'll probably be lost on you. In unguarded moments I may have phrased things so that they can be interpreted as certainty, but that's not really what I think. Not believing he exists is readily defensible, believing that he doesn't is not.
True everything has a creator, except the Ultimate One; it should be God is the First: no one before Him.
But the possibility of His existence is still present according to you, and you don't waver and don't fear of Him? or hope of Him?
While to me: I am certain He exists more than I think the existence of anything, while He is not a material thing.
Doubting of His existence is condemned more than doubting of the existence of the Hereafter.
Quran 9: 45, which means:
(None asks of you [O Mohammed] leave [to refrain from fighting], but only those [hypocrites]:
who do not believe in God and the Last Day, and whose hearts are full of doubts, so with their doubt they do waver.)
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/9.htm#a9_45
It will be practically proved to you following your death when you cannot change your claims.
Read this book of fairy tales, as you claim. Read it carefully, and don't be a coward against seeking the truth. Don't refuse it before studying the Quran:
The Quran Interpretation - pdf
The Quran Interpretation (html)
Quran 17: 81, which means:
(And say: '[The Islam: the religion of] the truth has prevailed, and the falsehood [religion of the idolatry and association] has vanished; for falsehood will inevitably vanish.')
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/17.htm#a17_81
Well, right there you totally invalidate your claims.
The Quran Interpretation (html)
Interpretation.
Sorry Torchy, you follow not the actual word of God, but an INTERPRETATION of it.
The Quran is the word of God in Arabic. The "interpretation" is the explanation of the Quran in any language; even the explanation of the Quran in Arabic is also its interpretation to those who know Arabic.
Of course, the original Quran in Arabic is miraculous and deep in meaning and above the claim of anyone if he says: I comprehend it completely.
If I ask you about a poet or any English text, and you explain it to me... it is the interpretation. (Even the interpreter himself and even the Prophet to whom it was revealed, and the angel who conveyed or delivered it.)
And it is narrated that Prophet Mohammed said when he was asked about many ayat of the Quran, he said: "I don't know their meaning: I heard it from the angel in this way." And he was honest to deliver the Quran as he heard it and the believers believed in both the plain ayat and the mysterious ambiguous ayat, even though they did not understand the meaning of such ambiguous ayat.
Quran 3: 7, which means:
([God] is He Who sent down upon you [Mohammed] the Book [: the Quran], some of which are the 'definitive' ayat that are the basis of the Book, [while] others are 'allegorical'.
So those, in whose hearts is deviation [from the truth]; they pursue its 'allegorical' [ayat]: seeking to seduce [people and turn them away], and seeking to interpret it.
[Therefore, God answered them:]
While none but God [alone] knows its [true] interpretation; those – having sure knowledge – say: "We believe in [all of] it: each [of the 'definitive' and the 'allegorical'] is from our Lord."
Surely, none may receive admonition save those with discerning hearts.)
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/3.htm#a3_8
Last edited:
And it doesn't matter how you excuse it.
Or do you deny that the Bible can also claim the exact same status as the Quran?
EVERY Interpretation of the Bible?
Of course the interpretation is not the Quran itself, but it is its explanation in other languages.
But the difference is that the original Quran in Arabic is preserved and is available now,
while the original Bible in its Hebrew and Aramaic languages is lost. What is available now of the Bible are the interpretations of a Lattin source which is not the original Torah and Gospel.
But the difference is that the original Quran in Arabic is preserved and is available now,
while the original Bible in its Hebrew and Aramaic languages is lost. What is available now of the Bible are the interpretations of a Lattin source which is not the original Torah and Gospel.
Many members and readers here do not read the meaning of the Quran ayat; once they see it is the Quran, they pass away from it, without contemplating and understanding; while it is their responsibility to the truth and to God they should discern and think, because they will be rebuked in the Final Judgment before the implementation of their sentence in Hell:
Quran 27: 84, which means:
(84. Till, when they come [to the world of souls following their death, {the angel of} God] says [rebuking them]: "Did you deny My [ambiguous] revelations when you could not comprehend them in knowledge, or what was it that you did?"
85. And the word [of punishment] will be sentenced against them, because of their wrong-doing; and they will not utter [any audible word.])
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/27.htm#a27_84
Quran 27: 84, which means:
(84. Till, when they come [to the world of souls following their death, {the angel of} God] says [rebuking them]: "Did you deny My [ambiguous] revelations when you could not comprehend them in knowledge, or what was it that you did?"
85. And the word [of punishment] will be sentenced against them, because of their wrong-doing; and they will not utter [any audible word.])
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/27.htm#a27_84
Last edited:
That's not what interpretation means.
Interpretation is a way of explaining.
But if the Quran is the Word of God, it won't NEED interpretations.
Sure, still copied by Man and faulty.
Well, no. It depends on what part of the Bible you'd be reading. The NEW Testament was written in Greek.
It was the OT that was written in Aramaic and Hebrew. And pretty sure that the scholars who wrote it in Hebrew haven't changed their writings (supposedly) since they began it. Though again, we're talking about Man, so... faulty. I mean, if they made mistakes or copied for their own ends, it's no stretch to think those of Islam did the same.
Greek, not Latin, and NT, not OT.
Maybe instead of berating people, ask why? Of course, we've all said why, you just aren't listening.
Some do, sure.
I actually believe that the Quran is just as valid as any other religious text. I just don't FOLLOW the Quran to the letter. Just like I don't follow any religious text to the letter.
But... if you contemplate and understand it, what if that understanding is different than your understanding? Or someone else's? What then?
(Hint: this is what has led to all the different sects of Islam)
God gave us brains to think with (according to the religious); to not use them but blindly follow is to insult God.
Which YOU believe, but just because you believe it, does not make it real, or legitimate, or what others should believe.
The moment YOU need to explain what something means, YOU are giving YOUR interpretation of the verse.
That is NOT what God is saying, but what YOU are saying.
So what's the FULL context of this, and not the cherry picked verses?
[Then God – be glorified – mentioned about those deniers who died or were killed in the time of Prophet Mohammed, and He said:]
That is what is said BEFORE these two sections you post.
So God isn't talking about current "Deniers", but those of Mohammed's time.
Funny that, earlier in the Soora, you see this:
[12] 11. "Save him who wrongs [himself h], then he substitutes [his] evil [work] with good [work] i, then surely I AM Most Forgiving j, Most Mercifulk."
And if you read everything up to the two selected verses, the whole Soora is talking about faith and belief telling stories about Moses, Solomon vs. Sheba and then Lot.
Also interesting that :
[82] 81. Nor can you [Mohammed] guide the blind aright, out of their error [in religion] f; you can only make to hear those who believe in Our revelations, and they are submissive [to Us g.]
Which suggests (ie MEANS to me) that Mohammed can't lead the faithless to faith; he can only preach to those who believe the Quran, because they at least believe.
And then, beside this section, there is this:
83 a The Arabic word in the aya, has been explained in this soora, the revelation or aya no. 17
The indication that this aya points to the time of the Mahdi, is His saying – be glorified – which means: (of those who disbelieve in Our revelations) in the present tense, and He did not say: of those who disbelieved in Our revelations, in the past.
Second: His saying – be glorified – which means: (out of every nation, a group), and He did not speak in total, as in the Quran 18: 47
Which means: (And We shall gather them together, and shall not leave anyone of them behind.)
Third: His saying – be glorified – which means: (And they will be distributed), and He did not say: will be tormented or burnt in the Fire, as did He say in many of the Quran revelations.
Again, which suggests that anyone who in the past denies the Quran isn't included in the punishments, because those are reserved for those who still to that one time, disbelieve.
Which also suggests that, like some Christians, you can do evil right up until death, but if you repent of your past deeds, those no longer matter, all that matters is that after death, when you come before those that Judge, you believe in God THEN.
That is what those verses mean, to me.
Of course it means something else to you, Torchy.
Which just proves my point. The Quran - and all religious texts - are dependant to the interpretation of the one who is reading the text at that moment, and it changes from person to person. You can have an overall belief in God, but to believe the words as written BY men and INTERPRETED by men, you canNOT put faith in.
The rest of the Soora says what happens to believers/those of good deeds vs. the non-believers/those of evil deeds.
The point isn't to shake you of YOUR faith, Torchy, but rather for you to get it through your head that YOUR faith will NEVER be that of anyone else's, because it's YOUR faith, not theirs.
OK, I'll wait 'til then.
I've read the book (translated to English). It offers nothing that a dozen other fairy tales don't. One of the things it (and the others) does not offer is evidence.
It's a possibility that something like a deity exists, but it's an unprovable claim that seems extremely improbable to me, and if he does exist he cannot be as described by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the all good, all wise, all powerful creator and master of it all who cares about us, that's too inconsistent with the state of the world. So no, I do not waver, or have any fear or hope of him, I have no expectations of him at all. I live on the assumption that he doesn't exist, because I've found no reason to believe that he does.
You are in extreme error; none can guide you other than God - be glorified.
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/2.htm#a2_26
You are in extreme error. None can guide you other than God - be glorified.
None can guide anyone, except God Who can guide whomever He pleases.
Quran 32: 13, which means
(If We had so willed, We could have given to every soul its guidance, but My due word was pronounced in truth: "Certainly, I will fill Hell with [the wrong-doers of] the genie-kind and the man-kind altogether.")
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/32.htm#a32_13
Every interpretation of the Bible, because the source from which they translated was not the original Torah or the Gospel.
The available Torah was even rewritten by the priest Ezra following the return of the Israelites from their captivity in Babylon.
The Torah of Ezra
