And that's why the US will hurt far more than China will. For China, it's just a self-inflicted flesh wound. For the US, it's a self-inflicted amputation.
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U.S. markets reeling after China hits back
- Thread starter mentalfloss
- Start date
And that's why the US will hurt far more than China will. For China, it's just a self-inflicted flesh wound. For the US, it's a self-inflicted amputation.
Poor old Trump, he just can't win. Up until now he's been accused of balking at Nafta, now he's criticised for trying to expedite it. Maybe he should just announce the exact day, hour and minute! :lol:
Business in the US is clearly vastly different then politics on a world stage, eh? who'd have thunk it, besides everyone but trump and his supporters...
nobody has complained he was balking. they complained that he wanted to visit it. Do you see the difference between those 2 statements? they mean very different things. They are not the same. You see that now, surely?
In trade agreements, if one side 'wins,' both sides lose. Trump doesn't seem to understand that. It's just like in a marriage.
China has more power in this trade war, not only due to them being the largest low cost supplier of goods to the US but also by virtue of the debt held by the Chinese of US bonds/t-bills.
They are in a strong position to impact inflation in the US and potentially manipulate the USD
Who funded China's manufacturing boom? USA.
How much does China still owe?
Without raw materials WTF are they going to produce?
24,014 right now...still plummeting.
How much does China still owe?
Without raw materials WTF are they going to produce?
24,014 right now...still plummeting.
If the debt is in US dollars, the US could circumvent that at least somewhat just by inflating its currency, bearing in mind that that would hurt the US too.
But if the US is in a trade war with the world while China is in a trade war with the US only, then like others have said, at least it can trade with others. The US is burning bridges all around itself with Canada and Mexico too. China will suffer and so will Canada, but at least we can control the damage or reduce the harm somewhat by trading with others. The US will take the brunt of the pain on itself.
Canada should still try to trade with the US but recognize that we can't force an unwilling state to trade with us. That means Canada absolutely needs to promote free trade with other states too.
Canada and Mexico should join ASEAN and have it renamed ASEANAN (Association of South-East Asian and North-American Nations). If the UK wants to join too, ASEANAEN (Association of South-East Asian, North-American, and European Nations).
Please read:
$2 Billion infusion for each and every state? "FREE" money that could be used to create jobs, reduce debt, reverse the recession and truly stimulate the economy? AND it does not come from RAISING taxes or from our government?
Instead of raising our debt ceiling or increasing taxes upon the American people, the ABF is seeking your support to initiate this debt offset structure, providing justice to the American bondholders and an infusion of billions of dollars to our state and federal governments.
Several decades ago, China sold sovereign bonds worldwide to investors in many nations. They sold tens of thousands of these bonds on U.S. soil to American citizens on the recommendation of our government, indicating it was a solid investment. Over the last sixty years, China has refused to pay to these bondholders either the principle or interest on these full faith and credit sovereign bonds. In 1987, threatened with being kept out of the British financial markets, China acknowledged the debt by paying British citizens who owned these same bonds. By paying the British bondholders, but no other owners worldwide (including U.S. bondholders), China “selectively defaulted” on these bonds. Currently, the People's Republic of China owes a debt of over $750 billion to American citizens who are holding full faith and credit sovereign bonds sold to them by the Republic of China. Worldwide, the debt China owes to all bondholders is estimated to be several trillion dollars. These facts are not in dispute by the U.S. Treasury Department, the White House, Congress or the State Department. In fact, an official at the Treasury commented that, "Yes, the bonds are real and yes China owes it and should pay it; however, good luck collecting it as China doesn't really want to pay it".
So behind what U.S. or international loophole, guideline, or precedent does China hide to keep from having to pay their debt to these bondholders? The answer is simple: None! They simply choose not to pay and no commercial, regulatory or government entity is holding their feet to the fire! China simply ignores the issue and our own government would rather not have to deal with it and risk "angering the dragon". Yet China continues to enjoy open and unfettered access to U.S. capital markets, has excessive cash reserves and a strong credit rating which the credit rating agencies (Standard & Poor's, Moody's and Fitch) are continually upgrading. (NOTE: In reality and in truth, China's credit rating status should be "Selective Default" according to the rating criteria established by the credit rating agencies, and which they submit to the Securities and Exchange Commission to obtain NRSRO (Nationally Recognized Statistical Rating Organization) .
It’s no secret that trade between the United States and China is severely unbalanced. The U.S. trade figures in 2010 showed a $273 billion trade deficit with the PRC. The difference between what we purchase from them and what they purchase from us is used by China to purchase more and more of our U.S. Treasuries. Then, of course, China receives tens of billions of dollars per year in interest payments from the Treasuries they purchase with profits from the U.S. - China trade imbalance.
Yet, in July of 2010 and again in November 2010, China downgraded the sovereign credit rating of the United States even though the U.S. has never defaulted on its debts. Not only has the U.S. never defaulted, it has never even offered to pay at a discounted rate. The U.S. pays its debts in full, and yet China downgraded our credit rating due to assessed "potential" risk while its leaders announced to the world that the U.S. needs to be financially responsible and economically sound. The irony is that being repaid by China is not a "potential risk"; it is today's reality for thousands of Americans to whom China refuses to pay what is legally and morally owed.
China argues that because these bonds were issued by a former administration or regime, the Republic of China, today's China should not have to honor them. Does this mean that every time the United States changes presidents that we no longer have to honor the interest and principal payments to all who purchased U.S. Treasuries during the previous Administration? Can an incoming president simply refuse to honor any contracts or treaties approved by his/her predecessor? Clearly China’s position is in direct violation of the Successor Government Doctrine of International Law. Further, China seems, at best, inconsistent and hypocritical. Recently following the fall of Saddam Hussein, China demanded the new Iraqi regime honor Saddam's old debts.
The simple truth of this issue is that the bondholders invested in the Chinese bonds in good faith, entering into a contract whereby China would honor the agreement to pay interest and principle back to the investors. China has now refused while continuing to enjoy the fruits of the infrastructure which was created by the fundraising. The bondholders are entitled to payment in full. However, even if China paid only 1/3 of the amount currently owed to Americans, such a settlement would enable the American Bondholders Foundation, LLC (ABF), (which represents thousands of American holders of these defaulted Chinese government bonds in 43 states) to settle all bondholder claims and provide a proposed stimulus of $2 billion to every state in the Union. In addition to this, capital gains and income taxes paid by the bondholders would provide additional significant tax revenues to the federal and state governments. Simply put in round numbers: China owes approximately $750 billion to U.S. citizens. If they only paid one third of their actual debt through a debt offset structure, negotiation or settlement, that would create an infusion into the U.S. economy of approximately $250 billion from an external (not the U.S. government) source.
But even more than that, twenty-five percent of the total settlement amount will go directly to ABF Charities, a 501(c)3 organization devoted to humanitarian projects across all of the United States! This will mean additional funding to over 1900 Hospice Foundations, Rape Crisis Centers, programs for the mentally and physically disabled, youth programs, education programs, college scholarships, funding for equipment for volunteer fire departments to bring them up to safety standards, and much, much more.
The ABF has received bipartisan letters from members of Congress in both the House and the Senate supporting a debt offset structure as a means to resolve this issue. They encouraged the governments of other countries to purchase these same bonds from the ABF at a discount and use the bonds at full value to extinguish debt those countries owed to China. In 2005, The World Bank held a special meeting for the ABF to present this debt offset opportunity to Ministers of Finance and Treasury from several countries, and encouraged them to utilize this avenue of debt reduction. Many of those leaders questioned why the United States Government wasn't interested in using this opportunity themselves as a means to reduce the debts of the United States, considering that the USG was heavily indebted to China. Clearly, at the time, the U.S. was reluctant to use such a tool. However, this opportunity is still available today. Rather than be subjected to continued pressure to increase our debt limits for the purpose of servicing interest payments on Chinese held U.S. Treasuries, these Chinese government bonds should be used to buy down our debt, settle with the American bondholders and complete a global settlement of this issue, finally holding China financially responsible and accountable for their financial obligations, just as they hold the United States and others. China should play by the same rules and regulations by which they expect others to play.
If the USG would utilize debt offsets to begin buying down the debt the U.S. owes China and extinguishing the debt China owes these American citizens, China's feet would finally be held to the fire, compelling them to pay this debt, just as China expects and requires the USG to honor its debt obligations. Only then will China be in a position to stand tall among nations as a responsible member and leader, by example, of the international community.
Instead of raising our debt ceiling or increasing taxes upon the American people, the ABF is seeking your support to initiate this debt offset structure, providing justice to the American bondholders and an infusion of billions of dollars to our state and federal governments.
For more information please contact:
Jonna Bianco, President
American Bondholders Foundation, LLC
2840 Glasscock Road
Lewisburg, TN 37091
(931)359-8781
(931)359-9689 fax
American Bond Holders Foundation
It's Time for China to Pay Its Debts to the United States | Fox News
$2 Billion infusion for each and every state? "FREE" money that could be used to create jobs, reduce debt, reverse the recession and truly stimulate the economy? AND it does not come from RAISING taxes or from our government?
Instead of raising our debt ceiling or increasing taxes upon the American people, the ABF is seeking your support to initiate this debt offset structure, providing justice to the American bondholders and an infusion of billions of dollars to our state and federal governments.
Several decades ago, China sold sovereign bonds worldwide to investors in many nations. They sold tens of thousands of these bonds on U.S. soil to American citizens on the recommendation of our government, indicating it was a solid investment. Over the last sixty years, China has refused to pay to these bondholders either the principle or interest on these full faith and credit sovereign bonds. In 1987, threatened with being kept out of the British financial markets, China acknowledged the debt by paying British citizens who owned these same bonds. By paying the British bondholders, but no other owners worldwide (including U.S. bondholders), China “selectively defaulted” on these bonds. Currently, the People's Republic of China owes a debt of over $750 billion to American citizens who are holding full faith and credit sovereign bonds sold to them by the Republic of China. Worldwide, the debt China owes to all bondholders is estimated to be several trillion dollars. These facts are not in dispute by the U.S. Treasury Department, the White House, Congress or the State Department. In fact, an official at the Treasury commented that, "Yes, the bonds are real and yes China owes it and should pay it; however, good luck collecting it as China doesn't really want to pay it".
So behind what U.S. or international loophole, guideline, or precedent does China hide to keep from having to pay their debt to these bondholders? The answer is simple: None! They simply choose not to pay and no commercial, regulatory or government entity is holding their feet to the fire! China simply ignores the issue and our own government would rather not have to deal with it and risk "angering the dragon". Yet China continues to enjoy open and unfettered access to U.S. capital markets, has excessive cash reserves and a strong credit rating which the credit rating agencies (Standard & Poor's, Moody's and Fitch) are continually upgrading. (NOTE: In reality and in truth, China's credit rating status should be "Selective Default" according to the rating criteria established by the credit rating agencies, and which they submit to the Securities and Exchange Commission to obtain NRSRO (Nationally Recognized Statistical Rating Organization) .
It’s no secret that trade between the United States and China is severely unbalanced. The U.S. trade figures in 2010 showed a $273 billion trade deficit with the PRC. The difference between what we purchase from them and what they purchase from us is used by China to purchase more and more of our U.S. Treasuries. Then, of course, China receives tens of billions of dollars per year in interest payments from the Treasuries they purchase with profits from the U.S. - China trade imbalance.
Yet, in July of 2010 and again in November 2010, China downgraded the sovereign credit rating of the United States even though the U.S. has never defaulted on its debts. Not only has the U.S. never defaulted, it has never even offered to pay at a discounted rate. The U.S. pays its debts in full, and yet China downgraded our credit rating due to assessed "potential" risk while its leaders announced to the world that the U.S. needs to be financially responsible and economically sound. The irony is that being repaid by China is not a "potential risk"; it is today's reality for thousands of Americans to whom China refuses to pay what is legally and morally owed.
China argues that because these bonds were issued by a former administration or regime, the Republic of China, today's China should not have to honor them. Does this mean that every time the United States changes presidents that we no longer have to honor the interest and principal payments to all who purchased U.S. Treasuries during the previous Administration? Can an incoming president simply refuse to honor any contracts or treaties approved by his/her predecessor? Clearly China’s position is in direct violation of the Successor Government Doctrine of International Law. Further, China seems, at best, inconsistent and hypocritical. Recently following the fall of Saddam Hussein, China demanded the new Iraqi regime honor Saddam's old debts.
The simple truth of this issue is that the bondholders invested in the Chinese bonds in good faith, entering into a contract whereby China would honor the agreement to pay interest and principle back to the investors. China has now refused while continuing to enjoy the fruits of the infrastructure which was created by the fundraising. The bondholders are entitled to payment in full. However, even if China paid only 1/3 of the amount currently owed to Americans, such a settlement would enable the American Bondholders Foundation, LLC (ABF), (which represents thousands of American holders of these defaulted Chinese government bonds in 43 states) to settle all bondholder claims and provide a proposed stimulus of $2 billion to every state in the Union. In addition to this, capital gains and income taxes paid by the bondholders would provide additional significant tax revenues to the federal and state governments. Simply put in round numbers: China owes approximately $750 billion to U.S. citizens. If they only paid one third of their actual debt through a debt offset structure, negotiation or settlement, that would create an infusion into the U.S. economy of approximately $250 billion from an external (not the U.S. government) source.
But even more than that, twenty-five percent of the total settlement amount will go directly to ABF Charities, a 501(c)3 organization devoted to humanitarian projects across all of the United States! This will mean additional funding to over 1900 Hospice Foundations, Rape Crisis Centers, programs for the mentally and physically disabled, youth programs, education programs, college scholarships, funding for equipment for volunteer fire departments to bring them up to safety standards, and much, much more.
The ABF has received bipartisan letters from members of Congress in both the House and the Senate supporting a debt offset structure as a means to resolve this issue. They encouraged the governments of other countries to purchase these same bonds from the ABF at a discount and use the bonds at full value to extinguish debt those countries owed to China. In 2005, The World Bank held a special meeting for the ABF to present this debt offset opportunity to Ministers of Finance and Treasury from several countries, and encouraged them to utilize this avenue of debt reduction. Many of those leaders questioned why the United States Government wasn't interested in using this opportunity themselves as a means to reduce the debts of the United States, considering that the USG was heavily indebted to China. Clearly, at the time, the U.S. was reluctant to use such a tool. However, this opportunity is still available today. Rather than be subjected to continued pressure to increase our debt limits for the purpose of servicing interest payments on Chinese held U.S. Treasuries, these Chinese government bonds should be used to buy down our debt, settle with the American bondholders and complete a global settlement of this issue, finally holding China financially responsible and accountable for their financial obligations, just as they hold the United States and others. China should play by the same rules and regulations by which they expect others to play.
If the USG would utilize debt offsets to begin buying down the debt the U.S. owes China and extinguishing the debt China owes these American citizens, China's feet would finally be held to the fire, compelling them to pay this debt, just as China expects and requires the USG to honor its debt obligations. Only then will China be in a position to stand tall among nations as a responsible member and leader, by example, of the international community.
Instead of raising our debt ceiling or increasing taxes upon the American people, the ABF is seeking your support to initiate this debt offset structure, providing justice to the American bondholders and an infusion of billions of dollars to our state and federal governments.
For more information please contact:
Jonna Bianco, President
American Bondholders Foundation, LLC
2840 Glasscock Road
Lewisburg, TN 37091
(931)359-8781
(931)359-9689 fax
American Bond Holders Foundation
It's Time for China to Pay Its Debts to the United States | Fox News
well with the way it's going it'll be a global agreement with only the US not included.
Yeah, marriage isn't about 'winning.' He probably aggressively applied the Art of the Deal with his wives, 'won,' and then wondered why they left him afterwards.
We should still kindly invite the US to join, but Trump would be to proud to join such a deal because he wants to 'win.'
Trump is managing the economic decline of America and is saying/doing whatever he can to blame the collapse on "Others". (Immigrants and fraudulent exporting countries.)
All this chatter about moving U.S. troops to the Mexican border is strategic.
As the economy continues to crumble, Trump needs a staging ground for the National Guard.
He soon will need to quell riots/revolts and civil unrest upon the streets of American cities and he can't well have or depend upon the local National Guard shooting down their own citizens in the street within their own State. He needs troops from all 50 states situated at a single military encampment and available for deployment on demand.
All this chatter about moving U.S. troops to the Mexican border is strategic.
As the economy continues to crumble, Trump needs a staging ground for the National Guard.
He soon will need to quell riots/revolts and civil unrest upon the streets of American cities and he can't well have or depend upon the local National Guard shooting down their own citizens in the street within their own State. He needs troops from all 50 states situated at a single military encampment and available for deployment on demand.
Hi Petros
If you take a walk down the street of any city in North America, you would quickly realize that things have not improved much since the Ronnie Ray-Gun Daze.
If you listen/read government statistics echoed within the media, then you might think things are improving.
If you take a walk down the street of any city in North America, you would quickly realize that things have not improved much since the Ronnie Ray-Gun Daze.
If you listen/read government statistics echoed within the media, then you might think things are improving.
Trump clearly has hit a raw nerve in China, which has shamelessly rigged the entire trading system with the West to its benefit.
Trade should be fair, reciprocal and focussed on value added product that ensures full employment and fair wages at home; encourages innovation and technological investment; and an equilibrium of trade balances at fixed exchange rates. NONE of these things have been honoured by China in the current trading regime.
It methodically steals Western intellectual property through agreements that demand that all technologies be shared with Chinese partners when setting up domestic manufacturing. Their elites in the Communist government and military have looted the system for their own benefit.
Trump is a damn genius for calling the Chinese on their con game. And believe me they are scared. They know that without their scam their ability to control their own population is in jeopardy. So Bravo for Trump. He had the guts to face off against Chinese while EVERY NeoCon and NeoLib Presidency in the last 50 years has capitulated to trade and financial interests in the West that are syphoning off grotesque profits from the system that is impoverishing their fellow citizens.
All of the scare tactics now come from the Wall Street @$$holes who see their meal ticket disappearing. The market response we see now are their method of bludgeoning Washington to its program by threatening pensions and investments. The truth is the Stock Market has been overvalued by multiples for decades by way the glut of money and near moneys (derivatives) that has flooded the system through Free Trade and Monetarism.
Trade should be fair, reciprocal and focussed on value added product that ensures full employment and fair wages at home; encourages innovation and technological investment; and an equilibrium of trade balances at fixed exchange rates. NONE of these things have been honoured by China in the current trading regime.
It methodically steals Western intellectual property through agreements that demand that all technologies be shared with Chinese partners when setting up domestic manufacturing. Their elites in the Communist government and military have looted the system for their own benefit.
Trump is a damn genius for calling the Chinese on their con game. And believe me they are scared. They know that without their scam their ability to control their own population is in jeopardy. So Bravo for Trump. He had the guts to face off against Chinese while EVERY NeoCon and NeoLib Presidency in the last 50 years has capitulated to trade and financial interests in the West that are syphoning off grotesque profits from the system that is impoverishing their fellow citizens.
All of the scare tactics now come from the Wall Street @$$holes who see their meal ticket disappearing. The market response we see now are their method of bludgeoning Washington to its program by threatening pensions and investments. The truth is the Stock Market has been overvalued by multiples for decades by way the glut of money and near moneys (derivatives) that has flooded the system through Free Trade and Monetarism.
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