Ontario to double amount of ethanol in gasoline

[petros]

Whatever. The percentage of ethanol in gasoline reduces the caloric value but raises the compression at which an engine will run.


The higher compression increases engine efficiency such that the lower caloric value of the fuel is compensated for.

Yet E10 lowers gas mileage which is another hard fact.

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline. So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline.3

https://federalregister.gov/a/2011-1646

 

[White_Unifier]

The world is not starving because there is not enough food.

That is a falsehood.

The world could be made to produce enough food to feed hundreds of billions of people. The "carrying capacity" of the planet is not even being approached.

I'll agree with that. Canada's, the EU's, and other countries' agricultural protections cause agricultural inefficiencies no doubt.

 

[Jinentonix]

I'll agree with that. Canada's, the EU's, and other countries' agricultural protections cause agricultural inefficiencies no doubt.

Jesus Christ, it ain't that either. The problem is actually three significant problems that have been addressed. 1)The amount of food waste in the West, particularly North America.

2)Distribution. Lots of aid doesn't make it to its intended target because of theft by those who are supposed to be delivering it. For example, it's estimated that at least 40% of the aid that is sent to India doesn't make make it to the north part of the country where it's intended to go. It's theft within the distribution chain that's the problem.

3)Corrupt regimes that are receiving the aid. For example, any food aid that got sent to North Korea would never see the inside of the average North Korean's mouth. This problem occurs all over Africa. Warlords send out gang members and kids looking all poor and unfortunate to get food from UN distributors and such, denying that needed food to the people for whom it's actually intended.

There is no shortage when it comes to actual food production.

 

[White_Unifier]

Jesus Christ, it ain't that either. The problem is actually three significant problems that have been addressed. 1)The amount of food waste in the West, particularly North America.

2)Distribution. Lots of aid doesn't make it to its intended target because of theft by those who are supposed to be delivering it. For example, it's estimated that at least 40% of the aid that is sent to India doesn't make make it to the north part of the country where it's intended to go. It's theft within the distribution chain that's the problem.

3)Corrupt regimes that are receiving the aid. For example, any food aid that got sent to North Korea would never see the inside of the average North Korean's mouth. This problem occurs all over Africa. Warlords send out gang members and kids looking all poor and unfortunate to get food from UN distributors and such, denying that needed food to the people for whom it's actually intended.

There is no shortage when it comes to actual food production.

Open borders could solve this. That way, anyone who can find work in Canada could move to Canada and then just buy the food at the grocers like every other Canadian. A tried and true solution. Supply management does contribute to the problem of high costs too though.

 

[tay]

I'll agree with that. Canada's, the EU's, and other countries' agricultural protections cause agricultural inefficiencies no doubt.

Indeed.........

The key piece of information in this story is that U.S. dairy farmers are simply producing too much milk. According to data from the U.S. Department of agriculture, 43 million gallons of milk were dumped in fields, manure lagoons or animal feed or were discarded at plants just in the first eight months of 2016.

http://www.wisconsinfarmersunion.com/single-post/2017/04/19/Milking-Scapegoats


Although American demand for dairy has risen steadily for almost 40 years, some farmers tried to limit the supply of milk by killing off their own cows.

No, you read that correctly. This mysterious state of affairs was revealed in a nationwide class-action lawsuit against dairy cooperatives, groups of farmers who pool their supplies but, as a whole, serve as middlemen between the farmers and dairy processors. In this case, lawyers from one of the premier U.S. plaintiffs’ firms alleged on behalf of American consumers that the cooperatives paid farmers to prematurely turn hundreds of thousands of cows into burgers in a sprawling scheme to prop up dairy prices.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-price-fixing-in-your-supermarket-dairy-aisle


Recent years have exacerbated the dire situation for America’s dairy farms. In 2009, the milk market tanked, with prices plummeting and droves of family dairy farms closing their doors. While milk prices recovered somewhat in 2010 and 2011, it was not enough to recover the previous year’s losses. Prices dipped again in 2012 just as persistent drought—the worst seen in the U.S. since the 1950s—and skyrocketing feed costs plagued dairy farmers. In the worst months of 2012, dairy farmers were losing up to $8.65 per hundredweight of milk they produced putting their farms in jeopardy and dramatically impacting rural economies.

https://www.farmaid.org/blog/dairy-family-farmers-in-crisis/

 

[White_Unifier]

Indeed.........

The key piece of information in this story is that U.S. dairy farmers are simply producing too much milk. According to data from the U.S. Department of agriculture, 43 million gallons of milk were dumped in fields, manure lagoons or animal feed or were discarded at plants just in the first eight months of 2016.

http://www.wisconsinfarmersunion.com/single-post/2017/04/19/Milking-Scapegoats


Although American demand for dairy has risen steadily for almost 40 years, some farmers tried to limit the supply of milk by killing off their own cows.

No, you read that correctly. This mysterious state of affairs was revealed in a nationwide class-action lawsuit against dairy cooperatives, groups of farmers who pool their supplies but, as a whole, serve as middlemen between the farmers and dairy processors. In this case, lawyers from one of the premier U.S. plaintiffs’ firms alleged on behalf of American consumers that the cooperatives paid farmers to prematurely turn hundreds of thousands of cows into burgers in a sprawling scheme to prop up dairy prices.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-price-fixing-in-your-supermarket-dairy-aisle


Recent years have exacerbated the dire situation for America’s dairy farms. In 2009, the milk market tanked, with prices plummeting and droves of family dairy farms closing their doors. While milk prices recovered somewhat in 2010 and 2011, it was not enough to recover the previous year’s losses. Prices dipped again in 2012 just as persistent drought—the worst seen in the U.S. since the 1950s—and skyrocketing feed costs plagued dairy farmers. In the worst months of 2012, dairy farmers were losing up to $8.65 per hundredweight of milk they produced putting their farms in jeopardy and dramatically impacting rural economies.

https://www.farmaid.org/blog/dairy-family-farmers-in-crisis/

Now I don't drink milk. Sorry.

But free trade in dairy could help solve that problem at least for those who do consume milk.

 

[Twin_Moose]

Canadian tax payers pay to destroy excess milk as well to keep dairy farmers within their quotas

 

[White_Unifier]

Canadian tax payers pay to destroy excess milk as well to keep dairy farmers within their quotas

That's ridiculous. As fewer Canadians consume mil, whether for health or other reasons, will we keep subsidizing milk like the model T ford?

here's my proposal. We open mil to free trade, cut the subsidies, and let the market sort it out. We can help unemployed farmers by providing them with skills training at taxpayer expense to retrain them for other trades and professions that are actually in demand.

If we ever end up with a guaranteed minimum income for all, that would be an added reason to no longer subsidize industries; but I'd say provide free trades and professional education for the unemployed too.

 

[Twin_Moose]

Quebec and Ontario dairy/poultry farmers are the strongest voices on this

 

[White_Unifier]

Quebec and Ontario dairy/poultry farmers are the strongest voices on this

So consumers may need an even stronger counter-voice.

 

[petros]

Kinda explains all the f-cking yogurt doesn't it?

 

[Hoid]

Yet E10 lowers gas mileage which is another hard fact.

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline. So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline.3

https://federalregister.gov/a/2011-1646

It only lowers mileage in vehicles that are not advanced enough / not having the option to make the required compensation. The gas engine is less suited to this conversion that the diesel.

<my own experience with ethanol leads me to believe that is rots out exhaust and pollution systems. I don't know if that is true. or has been proven.

 

[TenPenny]

It only lowers mileage in vehicles that are not advanced enough / not having the option to make the required compensation. The gas engine is less suited to this conversion that the diesel.

So, even though the fuel has less energy in it, you can apparently still get the same energy out of burning it? How does that work?

 

[Hoid]

So, even though the fuel has less energy in it, you can apparently still get the same energy out of burning it? How does that work?

It has already been explained.

That's ridiculous. As fewer Canadians consume mil, whether for health or other reasons, will we keep subsidizing milk like the model T ford?

here's my proposal. We open mil to free trade, cut the subsidies, and let the market sort it out. We can help unemployed farmers by providing them with skills training at taxpayer expense to retrain them for other trades and professions that are actually in demand.

If we ever end up with a guaranteed minimum income for all, that would be an added reason to no longer subsidize industries; but I'd say provide free trades and professional education for the unemployed too.

the market will sort it out by all the family farms in Ontario going broke and the out of business just like they already have done in America.

there is no need to wonder what will happen.

we are always in the position to allow cheap american agriculture into the country and just give up on farming.

what has always stopped us from doing this is that we have always wanted to be independent and self sufficient in our food production. Farms have been seen as different than businesses.

 

[White_Unifier]

It has already been explained.


the market will sort it out by all the family farms in Ontario going broke and the out of business just like they already have done in America.

there is no need to wonder what will happen.

we are always in the position to allow cheap american agriculture into the country and just give up on farming.

what has always stopped us from doing this is that we have always wanted to be independent and self sufficient in our food production. Farms have been seen as different than businesses.

I know some see agricultural as a militarily strategic asset for which sacrificing economic efficiency for food independence is viewed as a necessary strategic price to pay. Given the friendly relations between Canada and the US and many other countries in the world though, I don't see how relevant that is in today's world.

 

[petros]

It only lowers mileage in vehicles that are not advanced enough / not having the option to make the required compensation. The gas engine is less suited to this conversion that the diesel.

<my own experience with ethanol leads me to believe that is rots out exhaust and pollution systems. I don't know if that is true. or has been proven.

Not advanced enough? Are you that pathetic where you'd make shit up?

Advanced is the precise word as in ignition advance.

Any variation in fuel quality is adjusted by ignition advance. When was the last time a non electronic ignition was installed in a production vehicle?

 

[TenPenny]

It has already been explained.

.

No, it hasn't been explained. you haven't explained how an engine can get as much energy out of ethanol as it does with gasoline.

 

[OpposingDigit]

The price of wheat and corn and feedstocks for farm animals is going to rise.

 

[petros]

No, it hasn't been explained. you haven't explained how an engine can get as much energy out of ethanol as it does with gasoline.

He thinks a higher octane number means more power.

The price of wheat and corn and feedstocks for farm animals is going to rise.

Nope. When you make booze, fermentation turns carbohydrates to alcohol. With the carbs gone from the grain you are left with gluten (protein) and fibre which makes for a high dollar cattle feed.

 

[Murphy]

Not advanced enough? Are you that pathetic where you'd make shit up?

Advanced is the precise word as in ignition advance.

Any variation in fuel quality is adjusted by ignition advance. When was the last time a non electronic ignition was installed in a production vehicle?

It's like arguing with a cow. :lol: I admire your tenacity. Well done.