Brexit: A view from Germany

[Blackleaf]

I suspect you have gotten it wrong with the nations you have listed. Currently they are among a group of EU nations being kept afloat by EU subsidies. They are hardly likely to jump ship and go it on their own. And the refugee issue is all about proximity and not about the EU itself. If Canada and the US were less than 200 kilometers from Africa we'd be flooded with refugees too.

Also, currently the EU features seven of the world's top 20 banks and if you google Eu bank failures you will find that all of the banks in Europe that are struggling seem to be in Italy. As for its economy the EU economy grew at a rate of two percent in 2016 which is about the same as that of the US.

You may be right. Perhaps the EU is doomed, but I doubt that the thousands of complex agreements that tie it together will disappear any time soon.

I think you'll find that those nations that are listed that are being kept alive by EU subsidies - subsidies which are unpopular amongst many EU citizens because it's their money which comprises the subsidies - are only in the state that they are precisely because they are in the EU.

As for EU growth - I know the EU and Europe aren't the same thing, but the only continent whose economy is growing slower than Europe's is Antarctica's. When it comes to the Eurozone (which Britain wisely decided to stay out of despite the efforts and pleas of Europhiles), only two member states recorded recorded an annual growth rate of 2% or more between 2012 and 2015 - Germany and Spain.

The EU has been economically stagnant for a long time. It's an economic basketcase and it's EU policies which are stagnating its member states' economies.

 

[Danbones]

If Canada and the US were less than 200 kilometers from Africa we'd be flooded with refugees too.

Riiiiigggght...was the EU flooded with refugees before your terrorist funding friends went into action?
NOPE
(so much for sarcasm eh?)

Until HITLARY destroyed Libya those countries did not have a refugee problem.

Gaddafi: Europe will 'turn black' unless EU pays Libya £4bn a year
Col Muammar Gaddafi has warned that Europe runs the risk of turning "black" unless the EU pays Libya at least €5 billion (£4.1 billion) a year to block the arrival of illegal immigrants from Africa
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rn-black-unless-EU-pays-Libya-4bn-a-year.html

Soros-Linked "Undesirable NGOs" Fund ISIS-linked Refugee Boats To EU

Investigations by Italian authorities and others have found that NGOs funded by among others George Soros, are actively financing private ships to smuggle tens of thousands of illegal North African refugees into the EU via Southern Italy. The human trafficking is reportedly linked to ISIS smuggling networks. If confirmed by authorities, it could potentially open the NGOs to criminal charges .
Soros-Linked "Undesirable NGOs" Fund ISIS-linked Refugee Boats To EU | Zero Hedge

Soros is fortunately too cheap to fund shipping them to Newfoundland.

 

[Curious Cdn]

I expect the EU to fall apart in series of refits and restarts over the next decade. Every resurgence of the EU, as with the election of a rabid proponent of intensifying EU integration like Macron, something will disrupt it. The EU is falling apart from it perimeters inwards. Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece are all on the critical list of EU casualties. Europe is awash with refugees and terrorists. It's banks are failing. Industry is abandoning the continent. The EU is a failure, its demise is imminent, if slowly encroaching. Germany and France will likely be the last to fall.

I can't see why a weakened and collapsing EU is in our interests any more than a weakened and imploding U.S.A.. The alternatives to both are quite odious and dangerous. Wishing the demise of the E.U. just speeds up the end of the Western hegemony of which you enjoy its many benefits.

 

[Bar Sinister]

I think you'll find that those nations that are listed that are being kept alive by EU subsidies - subsidies which are unpopular amongst many EU citizens because it's their money which comprises the subsidies - are only in the state that they are precisely because they are in the EU.

As for EU growth - I know the EU and Europe aren't the same thing, but the only continent whose economy is growing slower than Europe's is Antarctica's. When it comes to the Eurozone (which Britain wisely decided to stay out of despite the efforts and pleas of Europhiles), only two member states recorded recorded an annual growth rate of 2% or more between 2012 and 2015 - Germany and Spain.

The EU has been economically stagnant for a long time. It's an economic basketcase and it's EU policies which are stagnating its member states' economies.

Actually I think my post mentioned subsidies as a reason why many of the states of the EU will remain. As for economic growth the EU matches the USA or at least it did last year. I know that you would like the EU to fall apart; as it would justify Brexit. But don't look for it to happen anytime soon.

Riiiiigggght...was the EU flooded with refugees before your terrorist funding friends went into action?
NOPE
(so much for sarcasm eh?)

Until HITLARY destroyed Libya those countries did not have a refugee problem.

Gaddafi: Europe will 'turn black' unless EU pays Libya £4bn a year
Col Muammar Gaddafi has warned that Europe runs the risk of turning "black" unless the EU pays Libya at least €5 billion (£4.1 billion) a year to block the arrival of illegal immigrants from Africa
Gaddafi: Europe will 'turn black' unless EU pays Libya £4bn a year - Telegraph

Soros-Linked "Undesirable NGOs" Fund ISIS-linked Refugee Boats To EU

Investigations by Italian authorities and others have found that NGOs funded by among others George Soros, are actively financing private ships to smuggle tens of thousands of illegal North African refugees into the EU via Southern Italy. The human trafficking is reportedly linked to ISIS smuggling networks. If confirmed by authorities, it could potentially open the NGOs to criminal charges .
Soros-Linked "Undesirable NGOs" Fund ISIS-linked Refugee Boats To EU | Zero Hedge

Soros is fortunately too cheap to fund shipping them to Newfoundland.

Do you live in a vacuum? Refugees have been flooding into the EU for decades, and not just from Syria and Libya. Have you ever heard of Chad, Niger, Sudan, Somalia, etc.? And why did you bother weakening your post with another loony George Soros reference?

 

[coldstream]

I can't see why a weakened and collapsing EU is in our interests any more than a weakened and imploding U.S.A.. The alternatives to both are quite odious and dangerous. Wishing the demise of the E.U. just speeds up the end of the Western hegemony of which you enjoy its many benefits.

There is no way to save the EU. It is failing because the economic globalism and liberalism that are at the core of its being are untenable. As the with the U.S. and Canada they are causing deindustrialization, income polarization, encroaching poverty, moral dissolution and the death of the middle class.

The 'West' was based on two major themes in its history, the sovereign nation state and Christianity. Both are arch nemeses of the ideology that now grips the EU and North America. The benefits that we have accrued are a legacy of that. It is becoming obvious to all the promises of Global Free Market Capitalism have been lies. That the moral relativism, radical individualism and empty materialism that actuates the New Age is inextricably linked to Civilizational collapse.

Our interests are served by returning the the viable model which led to the ascent of the West. The model that has ruled for the last 50 years will lead only to disintegration and conflict.

 

[Bar Sinister]

There is no way to save the EU. It is failing because the economic globalism and liberalism that are at the core of its being are untenable. As the with the U.S. and Canada they are causing deindustrialization, income polarization, encroaching poverty, moral dissolution and the death of the middle class.

The 'West' was based on two major themes in its history, the sovereign nation state and Christianity. Both are arch nemeses of the ideology that now grips the EU and North America. The benefits that we have accrued are a legacy of that. It is becoming obvious to all the promises of Global Free Market Capitalism have been lies. That the moral relativism, radical individualism and empty materialism that actuates the New Age is inextricably linked to Civilizational collapse.

Our interests are served by returning the the viable model which led to the ascent of the West. The model that has ruled for the last 50 years will lead only to disintegration and conflict.

Pardon me if I don't remember history correctly, but didn't sovereign nation states lead to warfare on a global scale?

 

[Curious Cdn]

So, what I remember before the "chaos" of the last fifty years are world wars... a hot one killing tens of millions and a protracted "Cold War" that killed millions. There is still conflict in the world but nationalism and jingoism fuel most of them. You will likely create the disintegration and conflict that you seek to avoid by tearing up the complex, bilateral webs that keep us selling to each other rather than dropping bombs on each other.

 

[Bar Sinister]

So, what I remember before the "chaos" of the last fifty years are world wars... a hot one killing tens of millions and a protracted "Cold War" that killed millions. There is still conflict in the world but nationalism and jingoism fuel most of them. You will likely create the disintegration and conflict that you seek to avoid by tearing up the complex, bilateral webs that keep us selling to each other rather than dropping bombs on each other.

Agreed. Trade between nations as well as free movement between them ends to lessen conflict.

 

[Curious Cdn]

Agreed. Trade between nations as well as free movement between them ends to lessen conflict.

The EU was specifically meant to do that and it has been successful, so far. There has not been one incident of EU members coming into conflict with each other and after three wars between France and Germany since the German unification, it was a serious consideration.

 

[coldstream]

Pardon me if I don't remember history correctly, but didn't sovereign nation states lead to warfare on a global scale?

The only thing that starts global wars are Empires. Nation States are characterised by peaceful coexistence, stable borders, constructive and fair trade, equitable integrated economies, inclusive societies. Imperial ambitions scuttle all that for the enrichment of the few, in trade and finance.. and are ALWAYS based on slavery, usury and exploitation.

 

[Danbones]

Well said CS...and behind the empire we have our banker buddies

 

[Bar Sinister]

The only thing that starts global wars are Empires. Nation States are characterised by peaceful coexistence, stable borders, constructive and fair trade, equitable integrated economies, inclusive societies. Imperial ambitions scuttle all that for the enrichment of the few, in trade and finance.. and are ALWAYS based on slavery, usury and exploitation.

You realize that the history of nation states pretty much refutes everything in your post don't you? Historically nation states promoted imperialism.

 

[coldstream]

You realize that the history of nation states pretty much refutes everything in your post don't you? Historically nation states promoted imperialism.

Read your history. The Imperial model, actuated by the tribe, by blood, by conquest, by subjugation has been in conflict with that of the Nation State (or the City State), actuated by a constructive, inclusive, stable, national identity, since the beginning of recorded history.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Read your history. The Imperial model, actuated by the tribe, by blood, by conquest, by subjugation has been in conflict with that of the Nation State (or the City State), actuated by a constructive, inclusive, stable, national identity, since the beginning of recorded history.

I expect I have read more history than you ever will. But let's take a look at your post. First of all, the nation state did not emerge in its modern form until about the 18th century. That was when people in a few nations began to think of themselves as belonging to a nation rather than a local region. These newly created states were not remotely peaceful. Instead they continually waged war against one another, and created large empires of subject peoples. Nationalism is considered one of the major cause of both World War. So far from promoting peace, the nation state actually promoted war on a vast scale.

 

[justlooking]

Riiight, because before the 18th century, no one ever died from a war.
It's all the nation states fault.
Your insights are rather myopic.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Riiight, because before the 18th century, no one ever died from a war.
It's all the nation states fault.
Your insights are rather myopic.

And you are reading something into my post that wasn't there. Perhaps you need a remedial reading course as I said nothing about people not being killed in wars prior to nation states.