Because We NEED More Lawyers!

Tecumsehsbones

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Law school is way too expensive. And only the federal government can fix that.



By David Lat April 8




There’s no shortage of lawyers in this country. Only 57 percent of 2013 law school graduates obtained full-time legal jobs nine months after graduation. Yet the federal government subsidizes the production of even more lawyers by lending the cost of attendance to basically anyone who decides to enroll in law school, without regard for the quality of the school or the job prospects of its graduates. A student going to Harvard Law School, where 86.9 percent of 2013 grads had full-time legal jobs, has the same access to federal funds as a student going to Thomas M. Cooley Law School, where just 22.9 percent of 2013 grads work as lawyers.


This policy is hurting students. Federally subsidized loans have enabled law school tuition to spiral out of control. As noted by Professor Paul Campos, “n real, inflation-adjusted terms, tuition at private American law schools has doubled over the past 20 years, tripled over the past 30, and quadrupled over the past 40,” and resident tuition at public law schools has climbed even faster. So long as the federal loans keep coming, tuition is unlikely to stop rising. In the words of Professor Brian Tamanaha, author of “Failing Law Schools,” “Federal loans are an irresistible (and life-sustaining) drug for revenue addicted law schools … law schools have been ramping up tuition and enrollment without restraint thanks to an obliging federal loan program.”


If the government were to stop lending for law school or even just impose per-student or per-school caps on loan amounts (perhaps combined with making it easier to discharge student loans in bankruptcy), law schools would have to dramatically lower tuition, in order to attract students. There would be no other way for most students to finance their education. (And many law schools are already struggling to fill their seats.) Private lenders might step into the breach – but carefully, because banks have a stronger interest than the government in actually getting repaid. Private lenders would focus on borrowers going to law schools with strong job placement records. And if banks are unwilling to lend to all law students, that’s further proof that the market produces too many lawyers.


Of course, the nation does have a significant “justice gap,” or a severe shortage of lawyers willing or able to serve the poor (or even middle class), to practice in certain (often rural) communities, or to work in public-interest careers. To address this problem, the federal government could dramatically curtail general law-school lending but set aside some money to lend without restriction (or even award as scholarships) to law students who commit to working in an under-served community or sector for several years after graduation. In 2013, South Dakota did just this, passing a law establishing a program that subsidizes lawyers who work in underserved rural areas for five years. The program took effect in July 2013, so it’s too early to render a verdict on its success, but according to South Dakota Chief Justice David Gilbertson, response to the program has been “beyond, quite frankly, our expectations.”


Law school administrators often respond to calls for reform by pointing the finger elsewhere. For example, why not crack down on federal loans for other types of education? Uncontrolled federal lending plagues a wide range of fields, to be sure – but if we have to pick one field in which to experiment, law school is a good place to start. According to a New America study, law school graduates have the second-highest debt burden among graduate and professional students, behind only graduates of medical school and other health-science programs. But given that our nation faces a shortage of doctors (which may explain why unemployed doctors are rare compared to unemployed lawyers), now is not the time to discourage people from pursuing medical education. Student loan reform should logically start with law school and then expand to other sectors, applying any lessons learned from the legal-education pilot program.


Lawyer jokes and “Better Call Saul” notwithstanding, the law is a noble profession – but it’s also an oversubscribed one, due in large part to excessive federal lending. To paraphrase Shakespeare, the first thing we do, let’s defund all the lawyers.


Law school is way too expensive. And only the federal government can fix that. - The Washington Post


This guy makes some great points. I agree with him, except on the "public subsidy for lawyers who work in underserved communities."


It's not the solution, but it's a pretty good band-aid.
 

MHz

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If you can't sue the legal system for false advertizing then you may have found the problem. The solution in Alberta seems to be focused on getting the cases through faster rather than reducing the total number. Now when it says you can reply after 30 days but before 2 years it wants the reply on the 31st day and not 700+ days that would be the norm for today. A case signed in 2013 was for a Lawyer making $400/hr, when the same case actually makes it to court the Lawyer is making $425/hr is something the Law profession is going to resist letting go.

Today with computers and the net a lot of the 'boring and expensive stuff' could be done by the clients themselves so a Layer can now handle 100 cases rather than 10 and the 'staff' on each case is going to be the most critical of all so very few errors will be made. (in theory most people will not throw their own case)
 

MHz

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If there are too many Lawyers, rather than create more crime to keep them all employed why not graduate only the fewest that would be needed and then the other ones can go and find a real job? The Lawyers can work at $400/hr to pay off a student loan that is now $40M rather than the $4M it is when you overbook by 4,000%
How many Lawyers working still skip the loan repayment as they know that they can make the collection more expensive than the debt by just using the Courts?

BTW my 'little issue' is coming up for summary trial on May 4, anything I should know about 'formal offers to settle'? I'm thinking the Judge will give me a better deal that two Lawyers.
I also assume when I'm suing 2 for $1 that I walk away with $2 rather tahn each of them only paying 1/2 each, T or F?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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If there are too many Lawyers, rather than create more crime to keep them all employed why not graduate only the fewest that would be needed and then the other ones can go and find a real job? The Lawyers can work at $400/hr to pay off a student loan that is now $40M rather than the $4M is is when you overbook by 4,000%
How many Lawyers working still skip the loan repayment as they know that they can make the collection more expensive than the debt by just using the Courts?
That's pretty much what the article is saying. So thanks for repeating it for those that didn't get it the first time.

By the way, if you'd wash off those numbers you pull out of your *** before you post them, I'm sure everybody here would really appreciate it.
 

MHz

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Why are the Lawyers the last to grasp that concept, let alone implement changes? (if it is like the Church/State connection where the wrongs are blamed on one or the other and no changes ever take place. With the BAR it would seem to be the BANKS that would be their double, justice, . . but at a price that only 1% of the world can afford and that 1% is never sitting as a defendant.

Changes would have to start with the BAR itself would it not?

Normally I get **** for not understanding something on the first go, now I'm getting **** because I get the concept, . . . progress isn't always forward is it?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Why are the Lawyers the last to grasp that concept, let alone implement changes?
They aren't, but I'm certainly not going to argue with you. There is absolutely no point to it.

Normally I get **** for not understanding something on the first go, now I'm getting **** because I get the concept, . . . progress isn't always forward is it?
Nope, with you it mostly staggers around like a drunk, and ends up pretty much where it started.
 

MHz

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If they aren't then why is there the money problem, take it from the Lawyers who do get to work, so what if they pay off 100 student loans in their career, and least the banking industry doesn't go under or the debt gets transferred to the ditch diggers who were smart enough to know that $40/hr is just fine as long as you don't rack up a big bill before that first check comes in. How about that as the solution, get a case and then go to school to learn how to win it, if you do you have some money and you will get more work. Fuk it up and you don't get any more cases so no education in law needed, problem solved.
You guys should hire efficiency experts instead of jailing them but then you wouldn't be in the boat you are now would you?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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If they aren't then why is there the money problem, take it from the Lawyers who do get to work, so what if they pay off 100 student loans in their career, and least the banking industry doesn't go under or the debt gets transferred to the ditch diggers who were smart enough to know that $40/hr is just fine as long as you don't rack up a big bill before that first check comes in. How about that as the solution, get a case and then go to school to learn how to win it, if you do you have some money and you will get more work. Fuk it up and you don't get any more cases so no education in law needed, problem solved.
We'll take your proposal under consideration. Then we'll laugh a lot and go get a dring.

You guys should hire efficiency experts instead of jailing them but then you wouldn't be in the boat you are now would you?
We jail efficiency experts? And exactly who are "you guys" in your delusional fantasies?
 

MHz

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They aren't, but I'm certainly not going to argue with you. There is absolutely no point to it.


Nope, with you it mostly staggers around like a drunk, and ends up pretty much where it started.
Wait till you have to agree with something I post if you want that 'ants in the pants' feeling.

That 'staggering' as you call it is called 'checking in all the corners'. Ever see some dog tracks in the snow? If there are two sets and one goes in a straight line and the other one looks like a malaria germ with all its twist and turns which one is going to have a full belly at the end of the day?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Wait till you have to agree with something I post if you want that 'ants in the pants' feeling.
I've never had ants in my pants, so I'm not sure I'd recognize the feeling. However, I do sometimes agree with your conclusions, if not with how you arrive at them. As the saying goes, "Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then."

That 'staggering' as you call it is called 'checking in all the corners'.
Yep. Every staggering drunk insists that what he's doing is purposeful and sensible.

Ever see some dog tracks in the snow? If there are two sets and one goes in a straight line and the other one looks like a malaria germ with all its twist and turns which one is going to have a full belly at the end of the day?
I'm pretty sure blathering on this board ain't gonna fill your belly, but good luck with that.
 

MHz

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We'll take your proposal under consideration. Then we'll laugh a lot and go get a dring.


We jail efficiency experts? And exactly who are "you guys" in your delusional fantasies?
They seem to be in short supply for the global elite so I though they must be in jail, probably dead though.

The same ones you dring with. Imagine how many clients would walk away if the BAR had closed circuit so they could listen in to drunk lawyer stories?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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They seem to be in short supply for the global elite so I though they must be in jail, probably dead though.
So, basically you had a random thought and decided it was The Truth. Yep, that's pretty much how you do it.

The same ones you dring with. Imagine how many clients would walk away if the BAR had closed circuit so they could listen in to drunk lawyer stories?
No problem, they'd just walk to another lawyer.
 

MHz

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I've never had ants in my pants, so I'm not sure I'd recognize the feeling. However, I do sometimes agree with your conclusions, if not with how you arrive at them. As the saying goes, "Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then."

Yep. Every staggering drunk insists that what he's doing is purposeful and sensible.

I'm pretty sure blathering on this board ain't gonna fill your belly, but good luck with that.
You squirm while sitting, most liars do the same thing so you should be able to spot it easily.

Drunk Cowboys are a tad different, the rope gets stretched a bit if you catch my drift. Perhaps that 'alleged drunk' actually just got off a small boat on a stormy sea. A drunk cowboy usually finds ways to save money, a drunk Lawyer is probably finding ways to make a small thing as expensive as humanly possible, same planet is the only thing they would be truly equally sharing.

My belly is full before I get here, some of what I read lightens the load though.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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You squirm while sitting, most liars do the same thing so you should be able to spot it easily.

Drunk Cowboys are a tad different, the rope gets stretched a bit if you catch my drift. Perhaps that 'alleged drunk' actually just got off a small boat on a stormy sea. A drunk cowboy usually finds ways to save money, a drunk Lawyer is probably finding ways to make a small thing as expensive as humanly possible, same planet is the only thing they would be truly equally sharing.

My belly is full before I get here, some of what I read lightens the load though.
Uh-huh. OK, this has been fun, but the sun's up and I got things to do. Hope you enjoyed the attention, and that somebody else feels like watching you dance and rave soon. Have a real nice day now, hear?
 

MHz

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So, basically you had a random thought and decided it was The Truth. Yep, that's pretty much how you do it.


No problem, they'd just walk to another lawyer.
It was enough to ask a question, my summations come at the end of the conversation rather than at the beginning, like yours did.
You mean to another bar? Banking and the BAR both need an update into the 21st century. (@1/1000 the current cost)

Poof . . .
 

Tecumsehsbones

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When I think of lawyers I'm always reminded of the movie
The Devils Advocate".
It's certainly true that the legal profession in all its glory is well deserving of massive criticism. I agree with most of the criticism, and I think that major reform is long overdue.

At the same time, I would note that the species has thus far come up with two ways to resolve disputes over who is entitled to what. Lawyers, judges, mediators, arbitrators, &c. is one way.

The other way is gunmen.

Your choice.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Of course. There could be no other way.
Maybe there could be. Please note that I said that the species has come up with two ways. I did not exclude the possibility of more ways.

If you've got one, I would, no sh*t, be fascinated to hear it. And debate it, and point out flaws. And those flaws would not make it bad or useless, for as you have pointed out and I agree completely, the systems we have are rife with flaws.