Should liberals leave Catholic Church?

[gopher]

Column: Is a liberal/conservative schism in the Catholic Church inevitable? Hardly



Column: Is a liberal/conservative schism in the Catholic Church inevitable? Hardly - Salem News: Opinion






The conflict they’re predicting has its roots in the bishops’ “synod on the family” that wound up in Vatican City last month. The gathering quickly turned into an ecclesiastical free-for-all on an issue only peripherally related to families but on the minds of many Roman Catholics these days: whether the church should adopt a more welcoming attitude toward people in living arrangements that contravene traditional church teaching.

A group of liberal bishops — some say with the behind-the-scenes blessing of the synod’s convener, Pope Francis — had pushed for an acknowledgment by the group of the “positive” aspects of same-sex relationships, cohabitation by unmarried heterosexual couples, and second marriages of church members who never obtained formal annulments from the church. The most pressing issue for many of the liberals was whether the church should show “mercy” toward the divorced and remarried by allowing them to receive holy communion at Mass, which the church currently forbids because it regards the bond of marriage as indissoluble and remarriage after divorce a grave sin.
The 180 assembled bishops failed to reach a two-thirds vote necessary to approve any of these liberalizing measures, even in watered-down form, but bare majorities voted to support the proposition that the issue of communion for divorced and remarried Catholics should remain open for debate. And that debate will be held at a second synod on the family in October 2015.








more .....

 

[Harikrish]

Do you confuse porn and reality often? You can probably get medication for that you know, help with the delusions.

The people in the porn don't appear to be on any medication. In fact the proper position for women is safely sandwiched and secured between 2 men who frequently nudge her to prevent her from falling asleep which could result in her filing rape charges. If you listen to porn audio, you can hear a lot of slapping followed by the women's oooooohs! and aaaaaaahs! The men can only grunt left speechless by this graphic display of uncontrollable erotica. No wonder women can recall details of what they experienced decades later.

 

[Sal]

Column: Is a liberal/conservative schism in the Catholic Church inevitable? Hardly



Column: Is a liberal/conservative schism in the Catholic Church inevitable? Hardly - Salem News: Opinion






The conflict they’re predicting has its roots in the bishops’ “synod on the family” that wound up in Vatican City last month. The gathering quickly turned into an ecclesiastical free-for-all on an issue only peripherally related to families but on the minds of many Roman Catholics these days: whether the church should adopt a more welcoming attitude toward people in living arrangements that contravene traditional church teaching.

A group of liberal bishops — some say with the behind-the-scenes blessing of the synod’s convener, Pope Francis — had pushed for an acknowledgment by the group of the “positive” aspects of same-sex relationships, cohabitation by unmarried heterosexual couples, and second marriages of church members who never obtained formal annulments from the church. The most pressing issue for many of the liberals was whether the church should show “mercy” toward the divorced and remarried by allowing them to receive holy communion at Mass, which the church currently forbids because it regards the bond of marriage as indissoluble and remarriage after divorce a grave sin.
The 180 assembled bishops failed to reach a two-thirds vote necessary to approve any of these liberalizing measures, even in watered-down form, but bare majorities voted to support the proposition that the issue of communion for divorced and remarried Catholics should remain open for debate. And that debate will be held at a second synod on the family in October 2015.








more .....

yes, this guy is going to capture more people and pull them back to the church...the die hard conservatives won't like it but this pope has always been about love and the people...What would Jesus do? Well, we already know that...if he were running things there would be a big reform fast.

 

[SLM]

The people in the porn don't appear to be on any medication. In fact the proper position for women is safely sandwiched and secured between 2 men who frequently nudge her to prevent her from falling asleep which could result in her filing rape charges. If you listen to porn audio, you can hear a lot of slapping followed by the women's oooooohs! and aaaaaaahs! The men can only grunt left speechless by this graphic display of uncontrollable erotica. No wonder women can recall details of what they experienced decades later.

Dude find someone else to discuss your fapping material with okay? I'm not the slightest bit interested in what gets you off.

 

[coldstream]

Column: Is a liberal/conservative schism in the Catholic Church inevitable? Hardly






The conflict they’re predicting has its roots in the bishops’ “synod on the family” that wound up in Vatican City last month. The gathering quickly turned into an ecclesiastical free-for-all on an issue only peripherally related to families but on the minds of many Roman Catholics these days: whether the church should adopt a more welcoming attitude toward people in living arrangements that contravene traditional church teaching.

A group of liberal bishops — some say with the behind-the-scenes blessing of the synod’s convener, Pope Francis — had pushed for an acknowledgment by the group of the “positive” aspects of same-sex relationships, cohabitation by unmarried heterosexual couples, and second marriages of church members who never obtained formal annulments from the church. The most pressing issue for many of the liberals was whether the church should show “mercy” toward the divorced and remarried by allowing them to receive holy communion at Mass, which the church currently forbids because it regards the bond of marriage as indissoluble and remarriage after divorce a grave sin.
The 180 assembled bishops failed to reach a two-thirds vote necessary to approve any of these liberalizing measures, even in watered-down form, but bare majorities voted to support the proposition that the issue of communion for divorced and remarried Catholics should remain open for debate. And that debate will be held at a second synod on the family in October 2015.





more .....

The so called process of 'liberalization' of issues was pushed by Cardinal Kaspar, who used some semantic gymnastics to by-pass the scripturally based doctrine of the Church on marriage, and who ran a campaign lasting almost a year to generate support for the issue of admitting divorced couples, living in conjugal relationships with another person without a declaration of annulment from the Church, to Communion (partaking of the Eucharist) and also relaxing the Church's position on homosexuality. The Extraordinary Synod of the Family seemed to be a forum convened by Pope Francis to, in fact, support this redefinition which would overturn millenia of accepted Church teaching.

Not surprisingly it produced a concerted response from Church traditionalists and intellectuals, led by Cardinal Raymond Burke, the Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura (the Holy See's Supreme Court). He and other powerful members of the Curia, including Card. Mueller, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, published a book stating the case for the existing doctrines of the Church on marriage and homosexuality.

The Synod itself was an embarassing fiasco, with press releases of unknown origin (but which many assume came from the Pope's office) muddying and obscuring the issues. The appearance was one of confusion and division. The reformers stands were soundly rejected by the Bishops. Pope Francis put out a summation criticizing the 'zealous, scrupulous, solicitous' attitudes of orthodox prelates.

Card. Burke was subsequently fired by the Pope and put out to pasture in some largely ceremonial position as Patron of the Knights of Malta. Unfortunately for Francis it has not quieted him, and he has gone on his own campaign, most recently in Ireland condemning any revision to Catholic doctrine on marriage OR homosexuality.

Pope Francis seems to be trying to back track now, and has never allowed his own views to be officially stated, but has spoken through intermediaries. He might, though, have seriously damaged the credibility and trust in his Pontificate. You can assume that NOTHING revolutionary will happen at the 2015 Synod on the Family in reference to marriage, communion or homosexuality. And NO future Conclave will elect any Pope whose views were NOT well vetted in published works, as with Francis.

The Church is well aware that it is out of synch with the prevailing moral attitudes in the West. But those who know it realize it cannot conform to, or even compromise with, a civilization that is now racked with an inchoate spiritualism, rationalizations of material gratification that deny all responsibility to tradition, family or community and is infused with radical individualism and ethical relativism.. and is disintegrating culturally, socially and economically before our eyes.

Its only solution was annunciated by Pope Benedict XVI, which is that of retaining its integrity, and providing a voice of reason, while the West annihilates itself in cultural suicide. That means retreating into itself until some sanity reasserts itself and the West emerges from a long and brutal Dark Age.

 

[gopher]

yes, this guy is going to capture more people and pull them back to the church...the die hard conservatives won't like it but this pope has always been about love and the people...What would Jesus do? Well, we already know that...if he were running things there would be a big reform fast.

100% spot on.

Good of the church to appoint more open minded types who welcome inclusionism and tolerance.

 

[gerryh]

The so called process of 'liberalization' of issues was pushed by Cardinal Kaspar, who used some semantic gymnastics to by-pass the scripturally based doctrine of the Church on marriage, and who ran a campaign lasting almost a year to generate support for the issue of admitting divorced couples, living in conjugal relationships with another person without a declaration of annulment from the Church, to Communion (partaking of the Eucharist) and also relaxing the Church's position on homosexuality. The Extraordinary Synod of the Family seemed to be a forum convened by Pope Francis to, in fact, support this redefinition which would overturn millenia of accepted Church teaching.

Not surprisingly it produced a concerted response from Church traditionalists and intellectuals, led by Cardinal Raymond Burke, the Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura (the Holy See's Supreme Court). He and other powerful members of the Curia, including Card. Mueller, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, published a book stating the case for the existing doctrines of the Church on marriage and homosexuality.

The Synod itself was an embarassing fiasco, with press releases of unknown origin (but which many assume came from the Pope's office) muddying and obscuring the issues. The appearance was one of confusion and division. The reformers stands were soundly rejected by the Bishops. Pope Francis put out a summation criticizing the 'zealous, scrupulous, solicitous' attitudes of orthodox prelates.

Card. Burke was subsequently fired by the Pope and put out to pasture in some largely ceremonial position as Patron of the Knights of Malta. Unfortunately for Francis it has not quieted him, and he has gone on his own campaign, most recently in Ireland condemning any revision to Catholic doctrine on marriage OR homosexuality.

Pope Francis seems to be trying to back track now, and has never allowed his own views to be officially stated, but has spoken through intermediaries. He might, though, have seriously damaged the credibility and trust in his Pontificate. You can assume that NOTHING revolutionary will happen at the 2015 Synod on the Family in reference to marriage, communion or homosexuality. And NO future Conclave will elect any Pope whose views were NOT well vetted in published works, as with Francis.

The Church is well aware that it is out of synch with the prevailing moral attitudes in the West. But those who know it realize it cannot conform to, or even compromise with, a civilization that is now racked with an inchoate spiritualism, rationalizations of material gratification that deny all responsibility to tradition, family or community and is infused with radical individualism and ethical relativism.. and is disintegrating culturally, socially and economically before our eyes.

Its only solution was annunciated by Pope Benedict XVI, which is that of retaining its integrity, and providing a voice of reason, while the West annihilates itself in cultural suicide. That means retreating into itself until some sanity reasserts itself and the West emerges from a long and brutal Dark Age.

Yup, so much better to be stuck in the rotting quagmire of the past.

 

[Harikrish]

100% spot on.

Good of the church to appoint more open minded types who welcome inclusionism and tolerance.

You should read the news. Church reforms are voted down. Liberals are not welcomed in the Church.

Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy
BBC News - Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy

 

[gerryh]

You should read the news. Church reforms are voted down. Liberals are not welcomed in the Church.

Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy
BBC News - Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy

Looks like it is YOU that needs to do the reading. From the article YOU posted:

Three crucial paragraphs in the final document all received more than 50% of the vote, although they failed to get the necessary two-thirds majority.

 

[gopher]

Don't confuse him with the facts as the truth hurts.

 

[MHz]

Only in the RCC is 66.6% called an equal vote. Nice to know that if 33% of the Clergy don't want 'corrections made' then they won't get made even though 64% of the total want the changes. If that isn't 16% fuked right off the top then nothing is, with the rest of the world respecting the 51/49 split as being the dividing line it shows they really are on a different planet.

You get a wayward Clergy when the Flock isn't the brightest to begin with, take the quote below, how many in the Flock have an issue with the policy at the top yet sent in their weekly donations? If any do then they can take part of the credit for the top never changing anything. Cut off their funding and they would probably be willing to actually sacrifice a Priest or two. The Vatican is a money-junkie, if you want them to do your bidding that is what you use against them.

"If you agree with those principles, you are, according to the Vatican, a Catholic in good standing.
If you don't, you're not."

 

[gerryh]

Only in the RCC is 66.6% called an equal vote. Nice to know that if 33% of the Clergy don't want 'corrections made' then they won't get made even though 64% of the total want the changes. If that isn't 16% fuked right off the top then nothing is, with the rest of the world respecting the 51/49 split as being the dividing line it shows they really are on a different planet.

You get a wayward Clergy when the Flock isn't the brightest to begin with, take the quote below, how many in the Flock have an issue with the policy at the top yet sent in their weekly donations? If any do then they can take part of the credit for the top never changing anything. Cut off their funding and they would probably be willing to actually sacrifice a Priest or two. The Vatican is a money-junkie, if you want them to do your bidding that is what you use against them.

"If you agree with those principles, you are, according to the Vatican, a Catholic in good standing.
If you don't, you're not."

Once again, proving your ignorance. You can look close to home to find the 2/3's rule for some things. Then again, why bother you with facts, they have never been real popular with you any ways.

 

[Harikrish]

Looks like it is YOU that needs to do the reading. From the article YOU posted:

What can be clearer, church reforms voted down.

Pope Francis has suffered a setback as proposals for wider acceptance of gay people failed to win a two-thirds majority at a Catholic Church synod.

BBC News - Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy

Don't confuse him with the facts as the truth hurts.

The only truth that hurts is Christians believing Jesus is coming back. Its 2000 years since the promise was made. They are stuck with the message.

 

[Motar]

By Joan Vennochi, Globe Columnist |
THE RED CARDINAL'S hat on its way to Archbishop Sean P. O'Malley sends a clear message to liberal Catholics who still hope the Catholic Church will shift their way: It isn't shifting.
Company men always reap their rewards. Cardinal Bernard Law got a basilica in Rome when the clergy sexual abuse scandal made Boston too inhospitable. O'Malley, another company man, gets elevated to cardinal for doing what the company ordered. O'Malley closed down parishes and is shutting down the vestiges of a liberal agenda in the Boston archdiocese.
Last week, seven members of the board of Catholic Charities of Boston announced their resignations. They were protesting the effort by Massachusetts bishops to prohibit gays from adopting children from their Catholic social service agencies. The seven who quit said the prohibition ''threatens the very essence of our Christian mission."
But the Roman Catholic Church, the institution seeking the prohibition, holds a drastically different view.
Church doctrine states that allowing children to be adopted by same-sex couples ''would actually mean doing violence to these children." Gay adoptions are ''gravely immoral."
If you agree with those principles, you are, according to the Vatican, a Catholic in good standing.
If you don't, you're not.
Liberals raised as Catholics refuse to accept this reality. We think we can be prochoice, pro-gay marriage , pro-gay adoption, and in favor of married and female priests and still call ourselves Catholic. The people who make the rules say we don't meet the criteria.
Every pronouncement from Pope Benedict XVI draws another line between official church doctrine and liberal ideology. When do liberals choose one side or the other?
Sue O'Connell, the copublisher of Bay Windows, New England's largest publication for lesbian and gay readers, believes it's time for liberal Catholics to take a stand -- just like board members did regarding their affiliation with Catholic Charities.
''I know a lot of Catholics, gay and straight," said O'Connell, a lesbian mother of a 5-year-old daughter. ''Everyone continues to go to church and act like their parish is not part of all of this -- the sexual scandal, the association to the Vatican and its stand on gay adoption. Everyone who believes that is in a state of denial."
''It's time to find a new path," she said.
O'Connell said the church is doing the expected -- enforcing its rules.
Catholics who don't agree with church doctrine are doing the unexpected -- sticking around where they are unwelcome, rather than moving on.
The stubborness is rooted in nostalgia, inertia, and arrogance. We cherish some memories, like the lacy white communion dress and the innocence of childhood confessions. Despite spotty attendance, we enjoy the ritual of Sunday Mass. We also believe our views are the enlightened ones and Rome's represent the neanderthal; eventually we will get a pope who understands that.
Liberals view the Catholic Charities controversy in Boston as a watershed moment, signaling a church hierarchy out of touch with ordinary Catholics. But the resignations in Boston, while laudable to fellow liberals, do not ruffle Rome nor Catholics who accept the rules. They are welcome. Just read the online posts to Catholic World News.
The local fervor to prevent gays from adopting children also shows that the sexual abuse scandal did not distract the church from the rules it cares most about. This week, the state attorney general's office scolded the archdiocese for failing to devise a system to keep track of abusive priests.
Conservative Catholics hold the power, not just in Rome but in the United States. When mobilized against abortion and gay marriage, they are a potent political force.
Catholics helped reelect George W. Bush. Survey results released last year by DemocracyCorps, the consulting group headed by James Carville, Stanley Greenberg, and Bob Shrum, showed that Bill Clinton carried the white Catholic vote by 7 points; Al Gore lost the white Catholic vote by 7 points; and John Kerry, a Catholic, lost the Catholic vote by 13 points. That is a 20 point swing, to the advantage of the GOP. It explains why Governor Mitt Romney, a probable Republican presidential candidate, would sympathize with Catholic bishops on the issue of gay adoption.
The church in Rome thinks in centuries, not in news cycles. It isn't budging.
Will liberals in America ever get the message?
Joan Vennochi

What do politics and religion have to do with Christ?

 

[gerryh]

What can be clearer, church reforms voted down.

Pope Francis has suffered a setback as proposals for wider acceptance of gay people failed to win a two-thirds majority at a Catholic Church synod.

BBC News - Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy



The only truth that hurts is Christians believing Jesus is coming back. Its 2000 years since the promise was made. They are stuck with the message.

Only the conservative Catholics, and idiots would consider a vote of over 50% a "set back". 30 years ago the same wording would have been soundly voted down with a vote approaching 100. Try putting your limited brain matter in gear before replying.

 

[Harikrish]

Only the conservative Catholics, and idiots would consider a vote of over 50% a "set back". 30 years ago the same wording would have been soundly voted down with a vote approaching 100. Try putting your limited brain matter in gear before replying.

Try to follow what is posted. Church reform fails.

Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy


Pope Francis has suffered a setback as proposals for wider acceptance of gay people failed to win a two-thirds majority at a Catholic Church synod.

BBC News - Catholic synod: Pope Francis setback on gay policy

 

[coldstream]

Only in the RCC is 66.6% called an equal vote. Nice to know that if 33% of the Clergy don't want 'corrections made' then they won't get made even though 64% of the total want the changes. If that isn't 16% fuked right off the top then nothing is, with the rest of the world respecting the 51/49 split as being the dividing line it shows they really are on a different planet.

You get a wayward Clergy when the Flock isn't the brightest to begin with, take the quote below, how many in the Flock have an issue with the policy at the top yet sent in their weekly donations? If any do then they can take part of the credit for the top never changing anything. Cut off their funding and they would probably be willing to actually sacrifice a Priest or two. The Vatican is a money-junkie, if you want them to do your bidding that is what you use against them.

"If you agree with those principles, you are, according to the Vatican, a Catholic in good standing.
If you don't, you're not."

It's not just the Bishops.. and true believers..

Mathew 16:18

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of Hell shall not prevail against it."

.. uh, by Christ. We've lost sight of the true source of the power and confusion spread by the dark forces attempting to dissolve the Family and Church in the West.

 

[Harikrish]

It's not just the Bishops.. and true believers..

Mathew 16:18

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of Hell shall not prevail against it."

.. uh, by Christ. We've lost sight of the true source of the power and confusion spread by the dark forces attempting to dissolve the Family and Church in the West.

There was no power given to Jesus. It was just his delusional claims of grandeur. Jesus could not save himself nor could he save his disciples. They were all eventually killed. It was the Romans under Constantine that saved Christianity by making it their state religion. The Roman Catholic Church compiled the bible according to the decree of the Roman Emperor Constantine.