Scotland might just show the rest of us the way to reset social democracy

[Blackleaf]

Richard Desmond (owner of the Scottish Daily Express) is English. Of course his paper is going to be against Scottish independence. Why don't you post something newsworthy.

To say that Richard Desmond has to be against Scottish independence just because he's English is, quite frankly, insulting.

There are 50-odd million English people in the United Kingdom and over 100 million in the world, and each one will have their own views - if any - on the Scottish independence referendum.

The English aren't robots all programmed to believe the same thing.

 

[tay]

In 1707, Scotland’s ruling elite opted for union with Great Britain against the wishes of most citizens.

The reason was truly sordid: the Scot’s elite had invested much of their wealth in a daring scheme to turn Panama’s narrow Darien gap between the Pacific and Atlantic into a nexus of trade.


The scheme went bust, as did the first Panama Canal attempt by France in 1881. Financial loses in Scotland were huge.


Along came the British and cleverly offered to reimburse the losses of Scotland’s ruling class if it would vote for union with Britain. London also promised the Scots trade access to its rich colonies. And so the deal was done.


Robert Burns, Scotland’s poet laureate, wrote: “We’re bought and sold for English gold.”


Ordinary Scots bear a deep, historic grudge against London’s ruling class which, like its colleagues in Washington, has lost all touch with the common man and local issues. Proud Scots are sick of being lorded over, or plain ignored, by Britain’s distant elite, which they see as insufferably arrogant and incompetent.


“Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven,” wrote John Milton in Paradise Lost. Many Scots agree.

Traditionally to the left, Scots have never forgiven PM Margaret Thatcher for wiping out much of their nation’s old heavy industry and mines that while inefficient provided large number of good jobs. Many want revenge.


Interestingly, an independent Scotland would not, as Britons warn, float away to nothingness. The Scots might join the European Union and resume their close historic ties to France. Britain would loses its nuclear submarine bases in Scotland and be forced to relocate them further south.

The United States is not at all happy seeing its faithful British satrap laid low by the Scots. If the Scots hit new oil or gas deposits in the North Sea, the Brits will be livid.


Independence for Scotland is more an emotional than a practical issue. To the devil with the bean counters and toff politicians in London. Sharpen the broadswords and break out the whiskey. The spirits of Robert the Bruce and William Wallace are rising.




GIVING THE SASSENACHS A BIG SCARE « Eric Margolis

 

[Cannuck]

To say that Richard Desmond has to be against Scottish independence just because he's English is, quite frankly, insulting.

There are 50-odd million English people in the United Kingdom and over 100 million in the world, and each one will have their own views - if any - on the Scottish independence referendum.

The English aren't robots all programmed to believe the same thing.

Lol... Nice try

 

[Blackleaf]

In 1707, Scotland’s ruling elite opted for union with Great Britain against the wishes of most citizens.

They didn't opt for Union with Great Britain. They opted for Union with England. That Union between Scotland and England (and Wales) formed a new country - Great Britain, which became the greatest free trade area in the world. There was no such country as Great Britain beforehand because the merger of Scotland and England formed it.

It's about time that ignorant Yanks like Margolis (who think they all it all but then come out with schoolchild errors like that) learnt the difference between England and Great Britain (the Scots and Welsh actually find it offensive when England and Great Britain are seen as one and the same).

As for the fact that that most Scots were against the Union with England. I daresay that most English were against it, too, because they were effectively bailing out a poor, bankrupt, backward nation.

Along came the British and cleverly offered to reimburse the losses of Scotland’s ruling class if it would vote for union with Britain.

Along came the ENGLISH and cleverly offered to reimburse the losses of Scotland’s ruling class if it would vote for union with ENGLAND.

Ordinary Scots bear a deep, historic grudge against London’s ruling class which, like its colleagues in Washington, has lost all touch with the common man and local issues.

And yet Scotland has done well out of the Union. The Union has made Scotland wealthy. It reaped profits from the Empire, of which the Scots were very much willing participants. Scotland would never have become a great nation were it not for its Union with England and Wales.

Traditionally to the left, Scots have never forgiven PM Margaret Thatcher for wiping out much of their nation’s old heavy industry and mines that while inefficient provided large number of good jobs. Many want revenge.

Anyone would think it was just Scottish miners that Thatcher, rightly, put out of work. But countless thousands of English, Welsh and Northern Irish miners also suffered under Thatcher, yet there is no huge clamour in those countries to secede from the Union. There's no point keeping industries like coal mining going just to keep people in jobs if those industries aren't beneficial to the British economy at all.

The Scots might join the European Union and resume their close historic ties to France.

If Scotland rejoins the EUSSR then it would NOT be an independent nation. It would just have swapped elected rule from London for UNelected rule from Brussels. It would be ruled by unelected foreign bureaucrats in Brussels who care not one iota about Scotland. Scotland would be nothing more than a small, cold, rocky province of the liberal German Empire (it would not be a sovereign state, just a mere EUSSR province, and a small one at that) which, due to its small size, would have little influence within the EU and would find itself having less MEPs in the EUSSR parliament than Member States like Czech Republic, Slovakia and Austria.

Within the UK the Scots are part of the third-biggest Member State of the EUSSR, and are able to have a lot of clout within the EUSSR. But, as a separate state, they will suddenly find themselves with little influence and have less power than most of the other Member States.

Britain would loses its nuclear submarine bases in Scotland and be forced to relocate them further south.

That's no problem. I think Torquay is one of those places that have been muted for the new site of the nuclear deterrent in the unlikely event that the Scots vote for "independence".

And an independent Scotland would lose thousands of shipbuilding jobs. Currently, thousands of Scots are employed in places like Rosyth and on the Clyde to help construct the Royal Navy's new warships. But if Scotland became independent all those shipbuilders would lose their jobs because no Royal Navy ships will suddenly be built in Scotland as Britain doesn't allow Royal Navy ships to be built abroad. It's no wonder that when Salmond attended the Naming Ceremony for HMS Queen Elizabeth earlier this year he was booed loudly by some of the shipbuilders who know they will lose their jobs if Scotland became "independent".

If the Scots hit new oil or gas deposits in the North Sea, the Brits will be livid.

The British could also find new oil or gas deposits in the North Sea (by the way, most of the North Sea gas fields are in ENGLISH waters, not Scottish waters, and an independent Scotland would have to say bye bye to most of the gas). There's no reason as to why all new oil and gas discoveries would be in Scottish waters.

And that article doesn't mention the fact that Scotland is only able to take up all the North Sea oil thanks to huge subsidies from the English. An independent Scotland may struggle to subsidise its oil industry.

Not only that, but there is a huge amount of shale gas under England that the government are planning on fracking. There are 1,300 trillion cubic feet of the stuff under Northern England alone. Not to mention the huge amount of coal that still lies under England soil, and which will take centuries to dig up. All those abandoned coal mines lying about England, Wales and Northern Ireland could easily be opened up again.

Independence for Scotland is more an emotional than a practical issue. To the devil with the bean counters and toff politicians in London. Sharpen the broadswords and break out the whiskey. The spirits of Robert the Bruce and William Wallace are rising.

It's okay saying that, but you don't have to live with the enormous consequences of an independent Scotland.

It has been pointed out to the Scots time and again in recent days the enormous damage their economy will suffer should they vote for independence. Big Scottish companies like RBS, Clydesdale Bank and Standard Life have said they will move out of Scotland and go to England should Scotland break away. The supermarkets have warned that food prices and prices of other goods will rise sharply should Scotland become independent. An independent Scotland would hurt Scotland economically and politically more than it will hurt anyone else, so it's important that the Scots don't listen to all the romantic Braveheart claptrap spouted by Yanks on the other side of the Pond who know next to nothing about Scotland and barely give it a thought for 340 days of the year and that they remember the dangers that an economic Scotland would bring to Scotland. Economic reality, not romantic Braveheart cobblers, is what the Scots need to bear in mind.

 

[Cannuck]

The history is irrelevant. The question is, would Scotland be better off going forward on its own. It would so the choice is clear. Blathering on about the past is silly

 

[Blackleaf]

Lol... Nice try

To say that the Scottish Daily Express is only against Scottish independence because its owner is English, rather than because it's of the belief that Scotland is better off within the UK, implies that being English means you have to be against Scottish independent.

But there are tens of millions of English people and each person will have there own views on Scottish independence.

I know for a fact that many English people are in favour of Scottish independence because they see - not entirely inaccurately - Scotland as being a place that is over-subsidised with English money; a place where socialism still reigns (whereas England shed socialism under Thatcher).

Many English people see the Scots as pampered and mollycoddled who, thanks to English taxpayers, get free university tuition, free medical prescriptions, free care for the elderly and a host of other freebies, all things which are paid for by the English taxpayer but which are denied to the English.

They see Scotland - which consistently takes more from the Treasury than it puts in - as being a drain and a burden on the British economy and will be only too keen to show Scotland the door.

In fact, there have been polls in the recent past which have shown that more English people are in favour of Scottish independence than Scottish themselves are.

So to say that the Scottish Daily Express is only against Scottish independence because its owner is English is a load of cobblers. There are 53 million people in England and each person has their own views on Scottish independence. Some are against; some are in favour; and some could care less either way. The English don't possess a hive mentality; they aren't robots all programmed to believe the same things.

It would so the choice is clear.

Since when have you become an expert on the intricacies of the Scottish economy?

Business leaders have come out in the dozens warning the Scots of the dire economic consequences that they face should Scotland become independent. Huge SCOTTISH (not English, but SCOTTISH) companies have come out and said they will move from Scotland and relocate to England should Scotland vote for independence. Major supermarkets have now come out warning the Scots of huge price rises should they vote for independence. Are all these business leaders lying?

And who would most Scottish voters rather listen to? You... or these businesses and economists?

 

[Cannuck]

Of course businesses are going to favour the status quo. Investment dollars prefer stability and cessation creates instability. That in no way suggests Scotland won't be better off going it alone.

 

[Blackleaf]

Of course businesses are going to favour the status quo. Investment dollars prefer stability and cessation creates instability. That in no way suggests Scotland won't be better off going it alone.

We may see if Scotland is able to go it alone when, if it votes for independence, it suddenly finds itself no longer having any large, world class businesses because they have all relocated to London.

Let's see how it does when the oil runs out.

 

[Cannuck]

We may see if Scotland is able to go it alone when, if it votes for independence, it suddenly finds itself no longer having any large, world class businesses because they have all relocated to London.

Let's see how it does when the oil runs out.

If they relocate which, of course, they won't. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if once the dust settles, companies from England move to Scotland.

 

[MHz]

We may see if Scotland is able to go it alone when, if it votes for independence, it suddenly finds itself no longer having any large, world class businesses because they have all relocated to London.

Let's see how it does when the oil runs out.

Threats?? How typical of the British, or was that originally the Brutish. Look at the bright side, Scotland goes the way of Iceland, dumps the Nattional debt imposed on them as being illegal usury fees and throw a few bankers in jail and a few politicians in with them. That is who will be rushing to the City of London for protection. The good news is that Scotland will get away and that will start a stamped of American States doing the same. The solution for the US is to abolish the Federal Govt and have the State Governments use e-mails more that the public can also scan. The UK would have to scrap 'the Crown' and with the City of London not pulling the strings the Monarchy would fold up due to lack of funding.

Scotland has the North Sea Oil, production is the bigger issue, even that is not as big an issue as Russia becoming a trading partner if England starts applying the typical sanctions.

 

[Blackleaf]

A huge cairn made up of 75,000 stones has been created near the Anglo-Scottish border urging the Scots to vote NO on Thursday.

The cairn, near the Scottish town of Gretna, just two miles from the English border, is the brainchild of Rory Stewart, the Anglo-Scottish Tory MP for the nearby English constituency of Penrith and the Border.

All the stones are piled high, around a dry stone central chamber, to form a cairn - an ancient marker in the landscape - celebrating the human dimension of Union.

And since the first stone was laid in July, the ‘Union Cairn’ has grown into a 350-ton symbol of togetherness.

It is now 150 feet in circumference and nine feet tall. It was just 18 inches high at the start.

The organisers reckon there are now 75,000 stones in the pile. Since the sudden surge in support for the nationalist cause, it’s all been gathering extra momentum.

Many stones have been placed by Scots. Just as many – if not more – have been laid by Scots, English, Welsh, Irish and others who have no vote in this referendum campaign because they do not have a Scottish postcode.

They want to do something to show they care, beyond a vacuous tweet. So here is one positive, demonstrative way of showing how they feel.

To those, like Christine, who fear that everything they hold dear is about to implode, it is both moving and reassuring.

The English-born daughter of a Pole who fought with the British in the last war and became a Brit, Christine, 60, is married to a Scotsman, has two English/Scottish children and lives in Glasgow.

In other words, she is a true Brit. And she had never really felt need to question her happy jumble of dynastic and geographical allegiances until this blasted referendum business came along.

The Union fights back: Thousands flock to Scottish cairn to make the emotional case against independence

Cairn is made up of 100,000 stones placed by members of the public
Supporters were seen bursting into tears at the site on the Scottish border
The structure is the creation of Anglo-Scottish MP Rory Stewart​

By Robert Hardman
15 September 2014
Daily Mail

Christine Kettyle wasn’t sure what to expect. She certainly wasn’t expecting to burst in to tears. But as she stands back and takes in this extraordinary monument to the human bonds which unite this fractious kingdom, she is overwhelmed.

‘I just feel that we’re about to see our family break up and so this has made me incredibly emotional,’ she says, before adding an impeccably British: ‘Sorry!’

We are standing slap bang on the Scottish-English border at Gretna. Before us, stands a pile of tens of thousands of rocks and stones, some painted with the Union flag, some with the Saltire, some with little messages. Most are just plain stones from all over Britain. All are a plea for unity on Thursday.

Emotion: Supporters of the UK have gathered at a cairn on the Scottish border; this image shows members of the public spelling out an N next to the round structure

Unity: This rock was painted with the Scottish and English flags by a member of the public

A lady popped in earlier after driving from the Isle of Mull to drop off a large red rock. Today’s post brought a piece of the Berlin Wall wrapped in a Union flag. It was sent by a man in Glossop, accompanied by a rather touching letter saying that the collapse of that wall in 1989 had been ‘the triumph of unity over division’.

In sending his bit of old Eastern Bloc masonry, he fervently hoped that these islands would not be going in the opposite direction.

All the stones are piled high, around a dry stone central chamber, to form a cairn - an ancient marker in the landscape - celebrating the human dimension of Union.

And since the first stone was laid in July, the ‘Union Cairn’ has grown into a 350-ton symbol of togetherness.

It is now 150 feet in circumference and nine feet tall. It was just 18 inches high at the start.

The organisers reckon there are now 75,000 stones in the pile. Since the sudden surge in support for the nationalist cause, it’s all been gathering extra momentum.

Many stones have been placed by Scots. Just as many – if not more – have been laid by Scots, English, Welsh, Irish and others who have no vote in this referendum campaign because they do not have a Scottish postcode.

Organisation: Alice Bragg is one of those who is helping to construct the cairn

Star power: Joanna Lumley, pictured with Tory MP Rory Stewart, has visited the structure

They want to do something to show they care, beyond a vacuous tweet. So here is one positive, demonstrative way of showing how they feel.

To those, like Christine, who fear that everything they hold dear is about to implode, it is both moving and reassuring.

The English-born daughter of a Pole who fought with the British in the last war and became a Brit, Christine, 60, is married to a Scotsman, has two English/Scottish children and lives in Glasgow.

In other words, she is a true Brit. And she had never really felt need to question her happy jumble of dynastic and geographical allegiances until this blasted referendum business came along.

It’s the same for Frank Wilson, 70. Cumbrian-born, he is married to a Scot, lives in Scotland and has family on both sides of the border. ‘I just felt it was right to come here,’ he says. ‘But I don’t want to make a big fuss.’

Of course not. That would be very, well, unBritish.

All day, a steady trickle of cars, buses, bikes and hikers appear in the field next to Gretna’s Old Toll Bar Café which prides itself on being both the ‘First’ and ‘Last’ house in Scotland. On Saturday night, a thousand supporters gathered at the cairn for a free music festival.

Attraction: People have been coming from all over the UK to visit the cairn near Gretna on the Scottish-English border

Structure: The cairn is growing ever bigger as supporters of the Union add stones to the pile

This is the ‘heart’ side of a debate which grows turgid and ugly whenever people get on to the ‘head’ side of things. ‘We don’t really talk much about currency here,’ says Chris Land, 28, one of the energetic young team running Hands Across The Border, the campaign behind the cairn.

Edinburgh born and bred, he is a Cambridge graduate who chucked in a London consultancy job earlier in the summer to defend the Union. If it’s a ‘yes’ vote, he says he will probably emigrate. ‘It won’t be the Britain which I feel I belong to.’

Another member of the team is Alice Bragg who has taken time off from running a London charity to help. The daughter of Lord Bragg, broadcaster and champion of all things Cumbrian, she spent much of her youth near here in border country.

‘I just can’t begin to imagine waking up and finding a steel fence right there,’ she says, gesturing at the tiny River Sark. ‘It’s like tearing up a family for no reason whatsoever.’

Like many, she has found the political aspect of the No campaign – Westminster suits dishing out home truths to the Scots – badly lacking in both excitement and momentum. This sort of campaign, she hopes, will strike a different chord.

It’s all run on a shoestring. HQ is a caravan and a table in the Old Toll Bar Café. But this is the passionate, grass roots side of the Unionist campaign. The team are encouraging people who cannot make it up the M6 – or down the A74 - to Gretna to send photos of themselves with stones to the Hands Across The Border website.

Addition: A mother pushing a pram puts another stone on the ever-growing pile

International: As this map shows, the stones have come from all over Britain and the world

Oxford graduate Angus Aitken, a Londoner with Scottish roots, hopes to join the Army next year. He left a job on a Campbelltown fishing boat two months back to come here and do this. ‘If I am in the Army, I want it to be the British Army,’ he says quietly.

Another carload turn up and quietly admire what is going on here. An English couple, who retired to their ‘dream home’ in Dumfries, tell me that they are so worried about impending separation that they have just put their house on the market. They have even talked to their bank manager about repatriating their life’s savings to England. They won’t give me their names.

‘There are some people who, let’s just say, have not been very pleasant,’ says Mrs Anonymous. Quite a few of today’s stone layers will not be named.

It’s a depressing but familiar symptom of the malevolence of certain elements in this campaign. Only the other day, the cairn team arrived to find a huge ‘Yes’ spraypainted on the stonework.

‘We have approached pretty much every celebrity, comedian and actor you can think of asking them to lend their support,’ says Rory Stewart, Tory MP for Penrith and the Border and the man who dreamed up this cairn in the first place. ‘I’m sad to say that the common response is “I’m very sympathetic but it’s not really appropriate for me to get involved.” It’s sad.’

Among the handful of famous faces who have lent support is Joanna Lumley. After her famously combative 2009 campaign to get a better deal for Gurkha veterans, she was never likely to be deterred by the bile of a few nationalists.

Putting a stone on a pile of rocks between Carlisle and Glasgow may not save the Union. But it is often the small rituals – a yellow ribbon or a bunch of garage flowers – which can suddenly accelerate in to a movement. And it is, surely, more dignified than pouring a bucket of iced water over a celebrity’s head.


Read more: Thousands flock to Scottish cairn to make the emotional case against independence | Mail Online
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[Cannuck]

When you don't have the facts on your side, make emotional pleas

 

[Blackleaf]

Threats?? How typical of the British, or was that originally the Brutish.

Scottish companies saying they will leave Scotland and relocate to England if Scotland votes for independence are not British threats. They are threats from SCOTTISH companies, like Royal Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank and Standard Life.

Look at the bright side, Scotland goes the way of Iceland, dumps the Nattional debt imposed on them as being illegal usury fees and throw a few bankers in jail and a few politicians in with them

Scotland's share of the national debt is Scotland's share of the national debt. It's debt which Scotland accrued. It's not debt which has been "imposed" on Scotland.

The good news is that Scotland will get away

Only if they vote for it on Thursday, and I don't think that will happen.

Just as my Scottish mother, when I was round at hers last night, was saying to my brother on the phone. He lives and works in Glasgow and so is eligible to vote in the referendum (he's voting NO. He also saw the huge demo last night of nationalists who demonstrated outside the BBC headquarters in Glasgow over their perceived "BBC bias" over the referendum). She was telling him that she believes the Scots - a well-educated people - will vote against independence. There are just too many unknowns that independence will bring (the SNP can't even tell the Scots what currency they will use) and most Scots will not want to step into that unknown.

Scotland has the North Sea Oil, production is the bigger issue, even that is not as big an issue as Russia becoming a trading partner if England starts applying the typical sanctions.

A problem for the Scots could be Shetland and Orkney, where a huge chunk of the oil lies. Despite being politically part of Scotland the Norse inhabitants of those islands don't consider themselves to be Scottish, and actually don't like the Scots. The inhabitants are of Norse descent, not "Celtic" Scots. It could well be that, if Scotland votes for independence, Shetland and Orkney - which are very pro-British - will demand to secede from Scotland and re-join the UK, taking all their oil with them.

 

[Kreskin]

There is no risk of Scottish separatists winning this vote. None in the no camp will be swayed to vote yes by the 18th. Some in the yes camp will be swayed to no. From now until the vote every fear tactic will be rolled out by politicians and media will soak it up. Guinness will be flowing, scotch will be consumed, and on the 19th of September Great Britain will set a world record for hangovers per capita. The tabloids have already readied the separatist obituaries. The challenge is keeping them unreleased until the votes are being counted.

 

[Blackleaf]

When you don't have the facts on your side, make emotional pleas

If the Scots vote for emotional Braveheart cobblers rather than for the stark economic facts on Thursday then they will suddenly find themselves an independent country (although that won't actually come until 2016 at the EARLIEST). They will then find themselves out in the big wide world and no longer at the generous bosom of Mother England. They'll then have to start learning to pay their own way in this world, because for so long they've had the English taxpapyer pay for everything for them. The Scots may find they cannot hack it as an independent nation, and then what? They'll be up a creek without a paddle. Britain, though, will carry on fine, regardless.

Those undecideds, which could sway it either way, really need to bear in mind the danger that an independent Scotland will bring to them and their country.

There is no risk of Scottish separatists winning this vote. None in the no camp will be swayed to vote yes by the 18th. Some in the yes camp will be swayed to no. From now until the vote every fear tactic will be rolled out by politicians and media will soak it up. Guinness will be flowing, scotch will be consumed, and on the 19th of September Great Britain will set a world record for hangovers per capita. The tabloids have already readied the separatist obituaries. The challenge is keeping them unreleased until the votes are being counted.

Of course, both sides are claiming victory. Apparently Salmond's lot have already booked celebration parties, even though the vote hasn't even taken place yet.

Meanwhile, Alistair Darling, the leader of Better together, was saying yesterday the NO side will definitely win.

But, of course, this is bound to happen. It's just all bluster, and one side will be disappointed on Friday. The polls are tight, but I think the NO side will win, however narrowly. Referendums are famous in that most people who vote in them rarely vote for change.

I just wonder what will happen if the result is 50% - 50%.

 

[petros]

Of course businesses are going to favour the status quo. Investment dollars prefer stability and cessation creates instability. That in no way suggests Scotland won't be better off going it alone.

Scotland has the north sea oil and gas that British pads their economy with. That will end and Britain gets one f-ck of a financial kick in the balls.

 

[Kreskin]

One of the Quebec votes was 49% plus but not enough to win. Every last vote counts.

I do think undecideds will heavily favor no. If they haven't managed to choose yes in a poll they won't be doing it at the voting booth.

 

[Blackleaf]

Scotland has the north sea oil and gas that British pads their economy with.

Most of the North Sea gas is in English waters.

And BP itself is one of those companies which has warned the Scots that the prospects of "their" oil are best served by the UK, which is more able to subsidise the industry than a little independent Scotland would be able to.

That will end and Britain gets one f-ck of a financial kick in the balls.

Too right it will end. It's running out.

One of the Quebec votes was 49% plus but not enough to win. Every last vote counts.

I do think undecideds will heavily favor no. If they haven't managed to choose yes in a poll they won't be doing it at the voting booth.

The YouGov polling expert told the BBC earlier that he believes most of the undecideds will go NO. There are thought to be around half-a-million undecideds, and it's them who will decide the outcome. The total turnout is expected to be over 80%, which is phenomenal for an election in modern Britain.

I believe that if you can't really know which way you are going to vote until you have the referendum slip in your hand, you are most likely to vote NO, just to be on the safe side.

 

[Cannuck]

Scotland has the north sea oil and gas that British pads their economy with. That will end and Britain gets one f-ck of a financial kick in the balls.

Scotland independence has logic on its side. The opposition have nothing but emotional arguments. It's the opposite of the Kweebeck independence issue.

 

[Blackleaf]

Scotland independence has logic on its side.

I'm assuming most Scottish voters will be more concerned about their wallets than by "logic".

As an Edinburgh taxi driver told Sky News's Kay Burley last week when she asked him which way he will vote in the referendum: "My heart says YES, but my wallet says NO."