Maybe there is too much emphasis on how much money we earn and too little on how much we spend. I think we need to examine NEEDS vs. WANTS! -
Swiss to vote on executive pay limit
- Thread starter tay
- Start date
As long as people assess a value to 'something' (skill, ability or a bag of potatoes), you will see that it will result in a differential in (material) wealth. Attempting to legislate or invoke systems that affect the more efficient producers of wealth will simply result in those people (that are more skilled or have better potato growing skills) producing less as any additional work or risk is not going to be recognized.
France embodies this reality. The folks that have the skills, money and tolerance for that risk are leaving in droves. That leaves the remainder of the community to fend for themselves and ultimately, they WILL be worse-off than when those rich bastards were around.
Maybe a better example is Cyprus... That gvt 'nationalized' the bank accounts of all depositors... As a result, no one with any substantial amount of cash will go near Cyprus meaning that there will be a lack of skilled personnel in that area in addition to absolutely no access to investment capital that is also needed to build schools, roads and hospitals.
none the less you do not yet have a solution, at this point you can point to countries that have not yet found the solution so we know that doesn't work either...but neither does our capitalist system...we are going down, I am telling you, right along with them because our system no longer works for the average little guy...look to the south...some of the best minds in the world driven by what had worked caused a world crash... it doesn't work for the speed of the world, the population, the size of the world has shrunk. Some guy in the desert in some tiny African country isn't going to continue to walk two miles for a glass of water. The little guy who has lost his life savings isn't going to just keep saying okey dokey I will work harder and harder to feed the kids. There is a limit. The world has reached that limit.We were not placed on earth to supply leisure for the %. I don't buy that.
And I don't buy the malarkey that if you aren't middle class you just want to suck off of the system. The middle class in the States particularly in some states were hit the hardest. Pretending that isn't so and that people have enough will only serve to bring the end down upon us faster.
The solution is that taxes need to be adjusted to encourage the retention and investment of capital in a nation and the local communities. The analogy is that it is better to have a smaller piece of a big pie (think taxes here) than it is to have a big piece of a small and shrinking pie.
You knock capitalism as being the cause of this downfall, but are quiet on the notion that it is this very system that supports and provides all of the money, talent, resources and planning for the social services, roads, hospitals, art galleries and community development that are now considered 'rights' in countries like Canada... They are NOT rights, they are benefits afforded by Canada as a society, but make no mistake - no one is entitled to anything
All that I am reading in this thread is that the wealth is to be stripped or capped at the top, yet no one has commented on the reality that 'the system' will enact that very same logic all the way down the income ladder in order to feed the systemic entitlements that society believes are 'owed'.
As for the impoverished African guy that has to walk 2 miles for a glass of water, are you under the impression that if there was better wealth distribution that water will magically appear in his front yard?.. All that example illustrated (to me) is that there is an emotionally charged, over generalization to act as a fear element to make a point... I ain't buying.
BTW - The global population is not shrinking.. Quite the opposite really and in part, this is one of the problems in that this growth is out stripping the sustainability in many local communities be it for lack of arable land, water or employment opportunities.
hope it works then
It is the cause of the downfall because it has become bigger than the sum of its parts, we can no longer control it. I am quiet about what the system has given us because simply because it is "a given" it has done all of those wonderful things but it no longer works, we must find a new way, we need new ideas for the new world...
C. M you constantly fall back onto this entitlement thing...it is meaningless...just because someone is not entitled to something doesn't mean it shouldn't be given. Who is this great measurer of entitlement...you, me... I say feed the poor, heal the sick...they are entitled because it is moral and ethical to do so. And simply because...we are able.
You need to extricate this owed and entitled from your head. It is poisoning your ability to see the need for change.
Of course I am not saying that. This is not about wealth redistribution. I am saying when you live in a little square with no access to the larger universe you make do in the little square even if life sucks within it. Once you place a window on the world into the little square and he knows there is a larger more bountiful world, he will want to partake in that world. And as a human being, he has the right.
Population is not shrinking, the world has shrunk. The little guy in the Sudan has access to global information from his camel back. The world has shrunk. We can speak to anyone, anywhere who has computer access and even the remotest areas now do.
Well, I've given you contemporary examples of how the Robin Hood arrangement of taking from the rich falls apart once you run out of 'the rich'.... So what do you do when that happens?
Yes it has, and based on the direction of the 'proposed suggestions', the only thing that will be accomplished is that the system will shrink and eventually fade away.... Go back to the example of France.... What happens to the system when the tax pool shrinks to unsupportable levels?
I am very surprised that you can't see this
I do harp on it because what was/is a moral and ethical endeavour has morphed into a mandated, legislated 'right'.
Like it or not, there is a very large difference between the 2
You bet that he has that right... And with that right also comes responsibilities
.. With the above in mind, I am still confused why the example was brought forward to begin with.
Well look what has happened within the last decade when all the wealth is concentrated there. Clearly it does not work. So let us not allow the pendulum to swing clearly to the other side as you are suggesting it will. Although the history of humanity has shown that is what usually transpires until we reach a balance. Regardless, your way will change because it has to.
it collapses, we don't need to go to France, it already has in the States with a world wide ripple effect, we see what has happened, all a result of the geniuses at the helm who thought they could just bleed it dry for the few all the while with a section of middle class cheering them on...we know who really lost here...we did, time to change that.
But while you focus on clinging to what you think the masses want to take from you, the 1% clearly have. some pregnant welfare mum is not your biggest enemy,
correct
Because everything is global, the economy, the knowledge share, the desire for equality, we have to adjust ourselves to that and we have not yet done so, if we don't, we will hit the wall of disaster...and that might not be a bad thing either change doesn't come about from comfort, it comes about from need.
An executives should get paid a base salary and a bonus that reflects the positive increase of the ROI of the company.
Prior to 2008, during 2008 and after 2008 corporate entities behaved like governments
unto themselves. They have not been responsible and they have not behaved in an
ethical manner. The solution the major governments around the world need to act. Not
just on Executive earnings but on environment, not leaving it open to crazies, and on the
other major issues of the day. How do they act? government needs to step up and force
these bottom feeders to behave. Governments need to demonstrate that citizens are
just that citizens and that includes companies/ Here are the new business laws and everyone
will abide by them.
Of course the governments we have had recently have been in cahoots with the companies
and there lies the problem. No I am not talking about communism or anything else.
Its time we used tax laws to force behaviour correction including when they threaten to leave.
OK Leave but before you go every tax incentive we gave you in the past twenty years will be
paid back up front in cash.
Ever notice how many tax incentives and breaks we the taxpayers have given at all levels only
to find that some years down the road the company pulls out leaving taxpayers and employees
holding the bag? If governments don't act soon the citizens will eventually demand they act and
the solutions in those cases are rarely good either. I guess what we really need is honesty at
the corporate and government level and honesty is in short supply
unto themselves. They have not been responsible and they have not behaved in an
ethical manner. The solution the major governments around the world need to act. Not
just on Executive earnings but on environment, not leaving it open to crazies, and on the
other major issues of the day. How do they act? government needs to step up and force
these bottom feeders to behave. Governments need to demonstrate that citizens are
just that citizens and that includes companies/ Here are the new business laws and everyone
will abide by them.
Of course the governments we have had recently have been in cahoots with the companies
and there lies the problem. No I am not talking about communism or anything else.
Its time we used tax laws to force behaviour correction including when they threaten to leave.
OK Leave but before you go every tax incentive we gave you in the past twenty years will be
paid back up front in cash.
Ever notice how many tax incentives and breaks we the taxpayers have given at all levels only
to find that some years down the road the company pulls out leaving taxpayers and employees
holding the bag? If governments don't act soon the citizens will eventually demand they act and
the solutions in those cases are rarely good either. I guess what we really need is honesty at
the corporate and government level and honesty is in short supply
You have made a cause/effect statement that you can't prove.
You want a clear picture on that; research the total taxes collected by (insert target nation here) and compare that to the expenditures.... An analys*s of any Western nation will undermine your position based solely on those figures
Great.. So your solution is to cut off your nose to spite your face
I don't think that you fully understand exactly what happened here.
Really sad Sal.. If you are unable to articulate a clear position that's your issue, but I will appreciate that you do not attribute these words to me as if that is anything close to what I have said... It isn't.
PS - it will be that same welfare mum that will get her a s s handed to her via the flight of capital from her nation/community
PPS - In case you haven't figured it out; your demographic will become the next '1%' that will be pillaged
Thought you might want to know
Great.. Define 'equality', relative to these issues, on a global scale in a manner that will work on a practical basis.
Some jobs would still be paying a lot more than other jobs. So there would still be the financial incentive to try and move up.
Have you ever been unemployed? I have. Its extremely boring. That in itself is an incentive. Well, for me anyway.
They'll always have Paris.
So it doesn't matter what we think, the Swiss think the big shots making more money than god is ok.24 November 2013 Last updated at 13:13 ET
Swiss reject cap on bosses' pay
Swiss voters reject a proposal that would have limited executive pay to 12 times that of the lowest paid.
I was actually a bit curious too. While I don't discount some of the economic warnings, I do think sometimes that social and economic reforms don't necessarily have to be at complete odds with one another, so I'm interested and curious whenever someone opts to try a different approach. And this definitely was different.
What? Our economy that was once strong and healthy collapsed are you saying it didn't?
? I didn't give a solution, I don't have a solution, I am not an economist. I told you that. What is clear is that change is needed. I told you that too.
You have that right... the best minds still aren't 100% sure what happened but all the manipulation of the market and people buying homes they could ill afford certainly didn't turn out the way they had hoped it would
my position is very clear, the lowest percentile will not destroy our economy the top have
she already has...
Cheer up you win there. I am now in the lower middle class. I already lost my job, my benefits, my pension, the expensive car once remember. Sucks to start over again I can tell ya especially when you are older, but us middle-classers are resilient, we work hard and bounce back. My ex-boss who bankrunpted though he still has all of the expensive cars and his two homes up here and his one in Florida and the wife is still diamond decked so it's all good. He seemed to have protected himself just fine.
If I could do that, I wouldn't be lower middle class.