Should we be allowed to sue for government-imposed poverty?

[captain morgan]

And I know you would dearly love to go back in time to that system, however much you may desire it, the world has moved on.

no Sal.. What I want is for people to assume a degree of individual responsibility for themselves rather than come up with excuse upon excuse as to why something isn't working out.

How many parallel educations systems will we end up with if we accommodate every permutation and combination of various issues?

Seems to me that we might take a page from the East Indians, Chinese or Koreans who seem to somehow avoid these many problems and produce well educated children on a consistent basis... Or maybe it's something in the water - who knows?

Thus the drive is to pay the least and make the most not to look after our brethren. I am asking you what happens to them and I think that many people fall into that category. They are incapable of working for whatever reason...mental or physical.

There's another pressure in the equation that seeks to gain the most in terms of compensation while inputting the least effort

Employers do not want someone who has to be constantly watched or can not produce at the level deemed necessary.

Those employees that require constant attention end up in positions that are at the lower end of the wage scale

Educated or not, some people are just too f*cked up. When hiring do you hire the smartest person or the most stable?

You want both characteristics. It's not necessarily one or the other

 

[petros]

Who wants to hire somebody flakier than filo?

 

[captain morgan]

Rotten Ronnies?

 

[petros]

Not even them. They are importing permit workers from India and the Philippines.

 

[Sal]

no Sal.. What I want is for people to assume a degree of individual responsibility for themselves rather than come up with excuse upon excuse as to why something isn't working out.

no problem but when someone has been beaten down, abused, has a 90 IQ etc. they may need some help with that

How many parallel educations systems will we end up with if we accommodate every permutation and combination of various issues?

I don't know but if it saves money, I'm all in. It is not just about imposing parallel systems it's about implimenting systems maybe within the system to grab these kids so they don't get left behind We do some of that now with parents who volunteer. They come in during the day and remove these kids from the classroom and work with them one on one. It helps. They bond they see positive role models.

Seems to me that we might take a page from the East Indians, Chinese or Koreans who seem to somehow avoid these many problems and produce well educated children on a consistent basis... Or maybe it's something in the water - who knows?

Cool, so what would be written on that page, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

There's another pressure in the equation that seeks to gain the most in terms of compensation while inputting the least effort

yes absolutely... I told you about the kindergartener who when asked what he wanted to be when he grew up replied like daddy...and what does daddy do, sits on the couch, drinks beer and watches cartoons...that is a taught response that can be redirected

but it takes mentoring

Those employees that require constant attention end up in positions that are at the lower end of the wage scale

no they don't, they end up fired because they cannot cope with the system and the employer can not cope with them, they poison a work environment faster than lethal gas

 

[Machjo]

no Sal.. What I want is for people to assume a degree of individual responsibility for themselves rather than come up with excuse upon excuse as to why something isn't working out.

How many parallel educations systems will we end up with if we accommodate every permutation and combination of various issues?

Seems to me that we might take a page from the East Indians, Chinese or Koreans who seem to somehow avoid these many problems and produce well educated children on a consistent basis... Or maybe it's something in the water - who knows?

It's something in the culture. They'll sacrifice their all for the education of their children. In Western culture, there's more of an attitude of 'hey, I have no responsibility for my child's education; that's what I pay school taxes for'.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'd just prefer things to be that the population has control, not "representation". Paul Martin never represented me. He represented big biz, corruption, and patronage. Same for many others.

 

[gerryh]

I gather machjo belongs to cope.

 

[Machjo]

I gather machjo belongs to cope.

Strike 1....

 

[petros]

I'd just prefer things to be that the population has control, not "representation". Paul Martin never represented me. He represented big biz, corruption, and patronage. Same for many others.

They have and all do.

 

[captain morgan]

Not even them. They are importing permit workers from India and the Philippines.

Says a lot in terms of the willingness of the locals to help themselves, doesn't it?

no problem but when someone has been beaten down, abused, has a 90 IQ etc. they may need some help with that

Over generalization... But on a practical note, the ones with a low IQ, is that a solely function of the education system? Maybe, just maybe would it have something to do with the individual student and their drive to apply some actual value to the principle of an education? (and yes, I do realize that mine is a broad brush generalization)

I don't know but if it saves money, I'm all in. It is not just about imposing parallel systems it's about implimenting systems maybe within the system to grab these kids so they don't get left behind We do some of that now with parents who volunteer. They come in during the day and remove these kids from the classroom and work with them one on one. It helps. They bond they see positive role models.

So, what we need is a small army of practitioners, assistants and volunteers to execute this strategy. Maybe separate facilities, schools and transportation services to accommodate this need.

Sounds expensive

On the surface, does this sound reasonable?

Cool, so what would be written on that page, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
yes absolutely... I told you about the kindergartener who when asked what he wanted to be when he grew up replied like daddy...and what does daddy do, sits on the couch, drinks beer and watches cartoons...that is a taught response that can be redirected

It would look like families that guide their children in their younger years.... It would look like people that have an appreciation for the value of an education.... It would look like people that assume personal responsibility.

but it takes mentoring

How about some personal discipline?.. Maybe even a teensy-weensy bit of thought as to planning for the future?

no they don't, they end up fired because they cannot cope with the system and the employer can not cope with them, they poison a work environment faster than lethal gas

Then they weed themselves out under that circumstance.

 

[L Gilbert]

They have and all do.

Uh, yeah. That's kinda what I said.

 

[gerryh]

Strike 1....

Nope...... another demonstration of how you want to keep "the liitle guy down and in his place". One more wanting to "blame the government".

 

[Machjo]

Nope...... another demonstration of how you want to keep "the liitle guy down and in his place". One more wanting to "blame the government".

Just so I understand. Whenever we identify laws that may hurt a person, we ought to defend those laws at all cost and maybe even pile on more such laws just for the thrill of it?

And wht does htat have to do with being a member of COPE?

 

[Sal]

Over generalization... But on a practical note, the ones with a low IQ, is that a solely function of the education system? Maybe, just maybe would it have something to do with the individual student and their drive to apply some actual value to the principle of an education? (and yes, I do realize that mine is a broad brush generalization)

I think the problem here is that you just assume that everyone who doesn't achieve is a lazy SOB and wants to take advantage of the system. I work primarily in Elementary school so I know that is just not the case. A five year old or even up to 13 years old just is not as jaded as you would like to believe. However, if they do not get some help then yeah, things go from bad to worse. So if you want to be practical and save money you need to get them then. Although I do not like Bush it was what he was attempting to do with the "no child left behind program."

So, what we need is a small army of practitioners, assistants and volunteers to execute this strategy. Maybe separate facilities, schools and transportation services to accommodate this need.

yes we need a village to get involved with kids, to mentor to support to help...it's kind of what being human is all about isn't it...helping each other to achieve their maximum growth since that's what we are here for

Sounds expensive

less expensive than how our system is currently functioning but much could be handled by volunteers and much of the system is currently already happening, it's just many out in society now and sucking off of the system did not have help because it was not available to them

On the surface, does this sound reasonable?

I hope so yes, I would like to see all have a chance...no child left behind for real...sounds way more reasonable than the current mess we are in

It would look like families that guide their children in their younger years.... It would look like people that have an appreciation for the value of an education.... It would look like people that assume personal responsibility.

Bingo :happy3: yes, that is exactly what we need, a whole village that is what we need right there

How about some personal discipline?.. Maybe even a teensy-weensy bit of thought as to planning for the future?

Yes absolutely personal discipline, and personal discipline is possible when people know that effort achieves forward motion rather than just getting beaten back down by a shoddy system.
And yes a bit of thought...that's what we are doing here, bouncing ideas around, trying to figure out how to solve this nightmare we have created before there was help available. If we come up with solutions so there is a bright future for all.

Then they weed themselves out under that circumstance.

and end up on assistance because intervention was not done when they were young. We pay now or later, later costs more.

 

[gerryh]

Just so I understand. Whenever we identify laws that may hurt a person, we ought to defend those laws at all cost and maybe even pile on more such laws just for the thrill of it?

And wht does htat have to do with being a member of COPE?

You are talking about making a law, that allows a person to sue the government if they "feel" that a law or bylaw has caused them or could cause them to lose money. It's stupid and ignorant to say the least. It would mean that developers could sue local governments for bylaw restrictions on lot sizes, building sizes, zoning.

 

[Machjo]

You are talking about making a law, that allows a person to sue the government if they "feel" that a law or bylaw has caused them or could cause them to lose money. It's stupid and ignorant to say the least. It would mean that developers could sue local governments for bylaw restrictions on lot sizes, building sizes, zoning.

If they can proove that those laws hurt the poor, in the absence of other factors, why not? Sometimes laws are passed to promote a particular class without due consideration of how they may affect the poor. Minimum wage is a classic example. It might help the middle class, but essentially legislates teh poor out of employment.

 

[gerryh]

If they can proove that those laws hurt the poor, in the absence of other factors, why not? Sometimes laws are passed to promote a particular class without due consideration of how they may affect the poor. Minimum wage is a classic example. It might help the middle class, but essentially legislates teh poor out of employment.

explain that one, cause I have never understood your reasoning on that. I know no business, here in Calgary, that even pays minimum wage, so minimum wage is moot.

 

[Machjo]

explain that one, cause I have never understood your reasoning on that. I know no business, here in Calgary, that even pays minimum wage, so minimum wage is moot.

in that case, minimum wage is redundant in Calgary. But raise the minimum wage to above some people's current wages, and then you'll see what I'm getting at. If minimum wage is too low, it's redundant. If too high, it legislates people out of work. So it's either redundant or harmful to the poor. Can you give an example of when it is ever beneficial to the poor?

 

[captain morgan]

I think the problem here is that you just assume that everyone who doesn't achieve is a lazy SOB and wants to take advantage of the system. I work primarily in Elementary school so I know that is just not the case. A five year old or even up to 13 years old just is not as jaded as you would like to believe. However, if they do not get some help then yeah, things go from bad to worse. So if you want to be practical and save money you need to get them then. Although I do not like Bush it was what he was attempting to do with the "no child left behind program."
yes we need a village to get involved with kids, to mentor to support to help...it's kind of what being human is all about isn't it...helping each other to achieve their maximum growth since that's what we are here for
less expensive than how our system is currently functioning but much could be handled by volunteers and much of the system is currently already happening, it's just many out in society now and sucking off of the system did not have help because it was not available to them
I hope so yes, I would like to see all have a chance...no child left behind for real...sounds way more reasonable than the current mess we are in

Bingo :happy3: yes, that is exactly what we need, a whole village that is what we need right there
Yes absolutely personal discipline, and personal discipline is possible when people know that effort achieves forward motion rather than just getting beaten back down by a shoddy system.
And yes a bit of thought...that's what we are doing here, bouncing ideas around, trying to figure out how to solve this nightmare we have created before there was help available. If we come up with solutions so there is a bright future for all.
and end up on assistance because intervention was not done when they were young. We pay now or later, later costs more.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this.... I simply don't see everyone as powerless or a victim

You are talking about making a law, that allows a person to sue the government if they "feel" that a law or bylaw has caused them or could cause them to lose money. It's stupid and ignorant to say the least. It would mean that developers could sue local governments for bylaw restrictions on lot sizes, building sizes, zoning.

How about income tax.....