Pope Francis- Another positive change

[Blackleaf]

Heard of the Gunpowder Plot. Now here's a question for you. Was the Gunpowder Plot before or after Henry VIII's seizure of the Catholic church's property?

Henry VIII was a Catholic himself. He could hardly have seized non-Catholic properties because almost EVERYONE in England was Catholic at the time.

And the Dissolution of the Monasteries in England was only part of what was happening throughout Europe as a whole. Across much of continental Europe the seizure of monastic property was associated with mass discontent against powerful and wealthy ecclesiastical institutions among common people and the lower levels of clergy and civil society.

The Catholic church was the wealthiest institution in England and Europe and many of the public resented it for this reason. Catholic clergy were like the bankers of their time.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Henry VIII was a Catholic himself. He could hardly have seized non-Catholic properties because almost EVERYONE in England was Catholic at the time.

And the Dissolution of the Monasteries in England was only part of what was happening throughout Europe as a whole. Across much of continental Europe the seizure of monastic property was associated with mass discontent against powerful and wealthy ecclesiastical institutions among common people and the lower levels of clergy and civil society.

"Before" or "after," Alf?

 

[Blackleaf]

Can't change it even if it's wrong, it's "tradition".

Do do you mean it's "wrong"?

That's just a matter of opinion.

"Before" or "after," Alf?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Gunpowder Plot was linked to the very popular Dissolution of the Monasteries?

 

[gerryh]

Henry VIII was a Catholic himself. He could hardly have seized non-Catholic properties because almost EVERYONE in England was Catholic at the time.

And the Dissolution of the Monasteries in England was only part of what was happening throughout Europe as a whole. Across much of continental Europe the seizure of monastic property was associated with mass discontent against powerful and wealthy ecclesiastical institutions among common people and the lower levels of clergy and civil society.

The Catholic church was the wealthiest institution in England and Europe and many of the public resented it for this reason. Catholic clergy were like the bankers of their time.

So sad that you know so little of your own history.

Head of the Church
After Wolsey's downfall, Thomas Cromwell became Henry's chief minister and earned the confidence of the King by helping him to break with Rome and establish Henry VIII as head of the Church of England. This act also brought him much needed wealth through the dissolution of the well-funded monasteries. Over four years Cromwell ordered that 800 monasteries be disbanded and their lands and treasures taken for the crown.
The cultural and social impact was significant, as much of the land was sold to the gentry and churches and monasteries were gutted and destroyed. Henry's personal religious beliefs remained Catholic, despite the growing number of people at court and in the nation who had adopted Protestantism.

BBC History - Henry VIII


or is the BBC not an accurate link for British History? lol

 

[Spade]

From the same article; quote:
But Anglicanism's problem is aggravated because it is primarily a tribal church (bolding mine), the offspring of the Church of England. It has traditionally been home to Canadians of Anglo-Saxon descent who increasingly have no ethnic identification with the church, said religious studies professor David Seljak of St. Jerome's University in Waterloo, Ont.
A similar problem burdens the Presbyterian Church - offspring of the Church of Scotland - which is losing adherents almost as quickly as the Anglicans.

 

[gerryh]

also strange that ol hank identified as Catholic yet was the Head of the Church of England and had been excommunicated by the Pope.

 

[Blackleaf]

So sad that you know so little of your own history.



BBC History - Henry VIII


or is the BBC not an accurate link for British History? lol

How does that contradict what I said?

The Dissolution of the Monasteries happened all over Europe, not just England. It was the wealthiest institution in Europe and commoners resented it. They wanted it cut down to size.

Catholic clergy were like the bankers of their day.

Catholic clergy will be Catholic clergy and they'll get up to all sorts of nefarious activities when they think no-one's looking. The same then as it is today.

Henry was right to close down the momasteries. Some were breaking the Benedictine rules and abusing their power and wealth. The monks were turning beggars away, leaving the monasteries, gambling, wearing finery and breaking relics. They also ignored the poor.

It was as a result of all this that commoners resented these Catholic institutions, and so Henry closed them down.

Unfortunately, you don't hear much of these facts in the demonising of nasty, baby-eating Henry who closed down the establishments of the caring, generous, god-fearing Catholic clergy.

 

[gerryh]

Unfortunately, you don't hear much of these facts in the demonising of nasty, baby-eating Henry who closed down the establishments of the caring, generous, god-fearing Catholic clergy.

ol hank was responsible for his own demonizing. The only reason the fat fu ck broke with the Catholic Church was because he wasn't man enough to produce a male heir and blamed it on his wife so he wanted a divorce, which the Church refused to give him. He was an egotistical, self centered oaf. You know, typical brit.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Do do you mean it's "wrong"?

That's just a matter of opinion.



Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Gunpowder Plot was linked to the very popular Dissolution of the Monasteries?

I'm asking you if the Gunpowder Plot, which you have stated was the "start" of Catholic/Anglican hostility in England, came "before" or "after" the seizure of Church property by Henry VIII. Not to mention the oppression of Catholics under Edward and Elizabeth.

But it is kinda fun watching you desperately dance and dodge. "The miracle is not that he dances well, but that he dances at all."

 

[karrie]

He SHOULD judge gay priests.

The Catholic Church should always teach its traditional teachings, not change its teachings just to suit society.

The Catholic Church has no teachings that say homosexuality is a sin. They have teachings that say breaking your vows of celibacy is a sin. They have teachings that sex outside of marriage is a sin. And that marriage is between a man and a woman. So, a gay person is committing no more grievous a sin, than any other person having sex and not married, according to Catholicism.

 

[Blackleaf]

The only reason the fat fu ck broke with the Catholic Church was because he wasn't man enough to produce a male heir

What, you mean he couldn't go to a lab and choose the baby's gender?

Tutu tut, how EVIL of him.

and blamed it on his wife so he wanted a divorce,

Henry VIII was hardly unusual in being a European monarch who wanted a male heir. A daughter was useless.

I'm asking you if the Gunpowder Plot, which you have stated was the "start" of Catholic/Anglican hostility in England, came "before" or "after" the seizure of Church property by Henry VIII.

Henry VIII was RIGHT to close down the greedy, corrupt monasteries. If some Catholics, even today, disagree with that then it's not my problem.

Not to mention the oppression of Catholics under Edward and Elizabeth.

The Catholic queen, Mary I, aka "Bloody Mary", murdered more Protestants than the number of Catholics either Elizabeth I or Edward VI killed. And Mary only reigned for FIVE YEARS, whereas her Protestant sister Elizabeth I reigned for 45 years, yet in that small period of time that she reigned Mary I oppressed and murdered more Protestants than the number of people supposedly oppressed and murdered by Elizabeth I in her FORTY FIVE years on the Throne.

And whereas Elizabeth didn't execute Catholics for being Catholics - she only executed Catholics who knowingly broke the law by taking part in Catholic worship in secret (she allowed Catholics to worship but ordered that they do so in public where they can't secretly plot against her) - Mary I killed hundreds of Protestants just for being Protestants. Bonfires with Protestants being burnt alive on them was a common site during Mary's reign.

And she reigned BEFORE Elizabeth I, so I suppose it's hardly surprising that Elizabeth was a tiny bit suspicious of Catholics.

Funnily enough, you failed to mention that whilst trying to portray Catholicism as the innocent little victim and Anglicanism as the evil aggressor.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Henry VIII was RIGHT to close down the greedy, corrupt monasteries. If some Catholics, even today, disagree with that then it's not my problem.

Ah, Alf, still can't come to grips with it, enit? OK, let's try something more basic. . .

The Act of Supremacy was in 1534.

The Suppression of the Monasteries ran from 1536 to 1541, and included the First Suppression Act (1536) and the Second Suppression Act (1539).

The Gunpowder Plot was in 1605.

Let's try this, mmm-kay? Which is earlier, 1541 or 1605?

 

[gerryh]

Ah, Alf, still can't come to grips with it, enit? OK, let's try something more basic. . .

The Act of Supremacy was in 1534.

The Suppression of the Monasteries ran from 1536 to 1541, and included the First Suppression Act (1536) and the Second Suppression Act (1539).

The Gunpowder Plot was in 1605.

Let's try this, mmm-kay? Which is earlier, 1541 or 1605?

whatsa matter? You don't like his dance?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

whatsa matter? You don't like his dance?

His points and flips are atrocious, and he simply isn't feeling the music. He'll never get a ten from Len this way.

 

[Blackleaf]

Ah, Alf, still can't come to grips with it, enit? OK, let's try something more basic. . .

The Act of Supremacy was in 1534.

The Suppression of the Monasteries ran from 1536 to 1541, and included the First Suppression Act (1536) and the Second Suppression Act (1539).

The Gunpowder Plot was in 1605.

Let's try this, mmm-kay? Which is earlier, 1541 or 1605?

You've lost the argument.

The biggest persecutor of people for their religion in England was a Catholic monarch.

 

[Spade]

The preceding argument speaks to the tribal nature of religion and as a result, its disputes and conflicts. Christendom, Islam, Judaism, and so on, are not immune. However, for youth, especially in Canada and Europe, these disputes are becoming less relevant.
Schüller: Bishops have 'no influence' on young people's thinking | National Catholic Reporter
This includes the Bishop of Rome.

 

[karrie]

The preceding argument speaks to the tribal nature of religion and as a result, its disputes and conflicts. Christendom, Islam, Judaism, and so on, are not immune. However, for youth, especially in Canada and Europe, these disputes are becoming less relevant.
Schüller: Bishops have 'no influence' on young people's thinking | National Catholic Reporter
This includes the Bishop of Rome.

The preceding argument speaks to why we've looked through the pages of history and chosen to separate church and state.

 

[gerryh]

The preceding argument speaks to why we've looked through the pages of history and chosen to separate church and state.

it also speaks to a couple of people having fun poking someone else....just for shytes and giggles.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You've lost the argument.

The biggest persecutor of people for their religion in England was a Catholic monarch.

Dance, Alf, dance. I'm not arguing who was the biggest persecutor of whatever in England or anywhere else. I'm challenging your assertion that the Gunpowder Plot "started" (your word) the Catholic/Anglican hostility in England.

So far, you've tried dancing, dodging, and lying. I calculate your next move'll be to run away.

See ya.

 

[spaminator]

The Catholic Church has no teachings that say homosexuality is a sin.

I think it says somewhere in the bible, 'thou shall not rear endeth thy fellow maneth'.