Mother Let Boyfriend Rape Her 14 Month-old daughter
- Thread starter Locutus
- Start date
Sal,
I went back and looked at your posts again and I wonder if the post where you bring up that this woman/mother did a confession where she confesses (throwing the boyfriend under the bus and accepting responsibilty for her letting him do it.. ?
My perception of your post is that you felt that on account of the "alleged confession" that this case and article was different...
If I didnt address what I feel is different, I want to take the oppurtunity now by saying that whether or not there is a confession, would still leave open the truthfullness of the alleged confession...
In my huge research/study of wrongful convictions I came to learn that normal, smart people for some reason can and do give confessions that just arent true.. Before my research I would never have believed that someone would own up to a crime that they are their co accused didnt commit.. After much studying I now believe it is very possible even to the strong minded smart people.. and I wonder how many people rot in jail after falsely confessing to soemthing they didnt do..
I also used to believe that if someone lawyered up immediatley following a possible/alleged crime in the "investigation stage" that they must be guilty..
Today, I think very differently only because of researching the subject of wrongful convictions...
Here is an article on a few Canadian false confessions that is interesting (ands scary to say the least)
It reiterates that allegations are just that and we should all have the right of being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law... (and sadly the jury of public opinion in social media makes removes this right by tainting any jury pool by guilty opinions being shared because of reading believing what we read and hear with out using critical thinking... I learned that it has happened to families via circumstance that no one would have ever imagined ..like knowing someone who became murdered ....)
Here is the article..
"
Interrogation tactics used by some Canadian police are being criticized after a report by CBC Television's investigative program, Disclosure, showed that Regina police and the RCMP led three suspects to falsely confess to a grisly murder. Videotapes obtained by CBC Television document more than 15 hours of police interrogations in the Regina case. They show police using sophisticated, psychological interrogation techniques on three young men who eventually confess to raping and killing a 14-year-old Regina girl in a high-profile 1996 case.
"I'm not even sure how to explain it because I'm not sure how it happened to me," says Joel Labadie, one of the three who falsely confessed.
In the end, DNA evidence convicted another man.
The issue of false confessions recently made international headlines in the Central Park Jogger case.
Five New York men were recently cleared of a brutal rape that they falsely confessed to in 1989.
"If you got the wrong person in the room, and you use those methods, it's going to be a punishing experience," says Richard Ofshe, a U.S. expert witness on false confessions.
"If you're innocent and you allow the process to go forward, you are going to go in for a ride the likes of which you never wanted to volunteer for," said Ofshe.
The process is the Reid model of interrogation.
The Regina videotapes, never before made public, show the officers using elements of this technique on the three young men. It's the gold standard in North America – taught to members of major Canadian police forces and the RCMP at Canada's three largest police training colleges.
"My job when I am an interrogator, when we teach it, is to have that person now tell me that secret," says Neil Barker, he heads the Canadian Police College's interrogation training program.
"Reid is probably the best source to go to about persuading someone to get them to tell you that story."
However, the technique has been blamed for producing false confessions in Alberta and Manitoba, as well.
"I thought I could convince them that I was innocent, but you can't," says Edmonton resident Michael St. John. In 1998, he was accused of assaulting his own son. He faced nearly eight hours of interrogation.
"They had one set mind and one set mind only: you're guilty, you've done it, now confess," said St. John.
In 1992, a Brandon, Man., math teacher was accused of touching a student's breast. He, too, falsely confessed.
"You know that's hard, when you pick up the local paper, and there you are on the front page, an accused sexual molester," says former teacher Dwight Grant.
In both cases the men were cleared.
The judges in the cases had harsh words about the Reid technique. In Alberta, the judge called it a "huge psychological brainwashing exercise." And in Manitoba, a judge called the technique "repugnant to society's sense of decency," and urged police to stop using it.
In Britain, some of the tactics used in the Reid technique aren't allowed by the courts. However, three years ago, a Supreme Court of Canada decision in essence approved the technique here.
But critics argue that was a mistake. "I don't think it should be allowed in Canada," says Calgary criminal lawyer and former provincial court judge John James.
"The technique is designed to break the individual down psychologically so that he repeats back to them what they want to hear," he said.
Widely used police interrogation technique can result in false confession: Disclosure - Canada - CBC News
NMD, there is no doubt in my mind that false confessions happen. There is no doubt in my mind that false accusations are made. There is no doubt in my mind that police are corrupt in some instances. There is no doubt in my mind that people are wrongly imprisoned. I highly doubt that there is anyone here in this forum that would disagree with that. That was no the problem and that is what you are not grasping.Sal,
I went back and looked at your posts again and I wonder if the post where you bring up that this woman/mother did a confession where she confesses (throwing the boyfriend under the bus and accepting responsibilty for her letting him do it.. ?
My perception of your post is that you felt that on account of the "alleged confession" that this case and article was different...
If I didnt address what I feel is different, I want to take the oppurtunity now by saying that whether or not there is a confession, would still leave open the truthfullness of the alleged confession...
In my huge research/study of wrongful convictions I came to learn that normal, smart people for some reason can and do give confessions that just arent true.. Before my research I would never have believed that someone would own up to a crime that they are their co accused didnt commit.. After much studying I now believe it is very possible even to the strong minded smart people.. and I wonder how many people rot in jail after falsely confessing to soemthing they didnt do..
I also used to believe that if someone lawyered up immediatley following a possible/alleged crime in the "investigation stage" that they must be guilty..
Today, I think very differently only because of researching the subject of wrongful convictions...
Here is an article on a few Canadian false confessions that is interesting (ands scary to say the least)
It reiterates that allegations are just that and we should all have the right of being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law... (and sadly the jury of public opinion in social media makes removes this right by tainting any jury pool by guilty opinions being shared because of reading believing what we read and hear with out using critical thinking... I learned that it has happened to families via circumstance that no one would have ever imagined ..like knowing someone who became murdered ....)
Here is the article..
"
Interrogation tactics used by some Canadian police are being criticized after a report by CBC Television's investigative program, Disclosure, showed that Regina police and the RCMP led three suspects to falsely confess to a grisly murder. Videotapes obtained by CBC Television document more than 15 hours of police interrogations in the Regina case. They show police using sophisticated, psychological interrogation techniques on three young men who eventually confess to raping and killing a 14-year-old Regina girl in a high-profile 1996 case.
"I'm not even sure how to explain it because I'm not sure how it happened to me," says Joel Labadie, one of the three who falsely confessed."All I know is for hours on end I said 'No, I had nothing to do with it.' Next thing you know I'm sitting here going 'Sure, why not. I did it.' More or less it's like they kill your spirit or something," he said. Labadie, Douglas Firemoon and a 17-year-old minor were all arrested for first-degree murder and spent nearly 4½ months in jail for a murder they had nothing to do with.
In the end, DNA evidence convicted another man.
The issue of false confessions recently made international headlines in the Central Park Jogger case.
Five New York men were recently cleared of a brutal rape that they falsely confessed to in 1989.
"If you got the wrong person in the room, and you use those methods, it's going to be a punishing experience," says Richard Ofshe, a U.S. expert witness on false confessions.
"If you're innocent and you allow the process to go forward, you are going to go in for a ride the likes of which you never wanted to volunteer for," said Ofshe.
The process is the Reid model of interrogation.
The Regina videotapes, never before made public, show the officers using elements of this technique on the three young men. It's the gold standard in North America – taught to members of major Canadian police forces and the RCMP at Canada's three largest police training colleges.
"My job when I am an interrogator, when we teach it, is to have that person now tell me that secret," says Neil Barker, he heads the Canadian Police College's interrogation training program.
"Reid is probably the best source to go to about persuading someone to get them to tell you that story."
However, the technique has been blamed for producing false confessions in Alberta and Manitoba, as well.
"I thought I could convince them that I was innocent, but you can't," says Edmonton resident Michael St. John. In 1998, he was accused of assaulting his own son. He faced nearly eight hours of interrogation.
"They had one set mind and one set mind only: you're guilty, you've done it, now confess," said St. John.
In 1992, a Brandon, Man., math teacher was accused of touching a student's breast. He, too, falsely confessed.
"You know that's hard, when you pick up the local paper, and there you are on the front page, an accused sexual molester," says former teacher Dwight Grant.
In both cases the men were cleared.
The judges in the cases had harsh words about the Reid technique. In Alberta, the judge called it a "huge psychological brainwashing exercise." And in Manitoba, a judge called the technique "repugnant to society's sense of decency," and urged police to stop using it.
In Britain, some of the tactics used in the Reid technique aren't allowed by the courts. However, three years ago, a Supreme Court of Canada decision in essence approved the technique here.
But critics argue that was a mistake. "I don't think it should be allowed in Canada," says Calgary criminal lawyer and former provincial court judge John James.
"The technique is designed to break the individual down psychologically so that he repeats back to them what they want to hear," he said.
Widely used police interrogation technique can result in false confession: Disclosure - Canada - CBC News
You entered a highly charged thread thus:
People were struggling just to comprehend/understand that such a horrendous crime could actually have occurred. What you are not understanding is that you picked the wrong thread to begin discussing news presentation and innocence of offenders. No matter how i tried to explain that to you in various different ways you just kept trying to make your point not understanding no one cared about your point they were still dealing with the death of the child. It's as if you did not even read the story nor comprehend the death of the child.
THAT was my frustration with your posts and thus my pull back. You just were so caught up in 'the argument" that you were totally unable to step back from it. You could not hear what people were trying to tell you.
It is also why I ended the discussion. You were discussing apples I was speaking of oranges. We were discussing separate issues. If you want to speak of wrongful conviction and how it happens start a thread.
There was nothing you said to me personally which I found offensive. I can not speak for others.NMD, there is no doubt in my mind that false confessions happen. There is no doubt in my mind that false accusations are made. There is no doubt in my mind that police are corrupt in some instances. There is no doubt in my mind that people are wrongly imprisoned. I highly doubt that there is anyone here in this forum that would disagree with that. That was no the problem and that is what you are not grasping.
You entered a highly charged thread thus:
People were struggling just to comprehend/understand that such a horrendous crime could actually have occurred. What you are not understanding is that you picked the wrong thread to begin discussing news presentation and innocence of offenders. No matter how i tried to explain that to you in various different ways you just kept trying to make your point not understanding no one cared about your point they were still dealing with the death of the child. It's as if you did not even read the story nor comprehend the death of the child.
THAT was my frustration with your posts and thus my pull back. You just were so caught up in 'the argument" that you were totally unable to step back from it. You could not hear what people were trying to tell you.
It is also why I ended the discussion. You were discussing apples I was speaking of oranges. We were discussing separate issues. If you want to speak of wrongful conviction and how it happens start a thread.
Hi Sal,
Thank you for clarifying what you felt I wasnt addressing...
My entire point is in your opening sentence.. I will quote your opening sentence....
"People were struggling just to comprehend/understand that such a horrendous crime could actually have occurred."
Based on your statement, where you point out that people would struggle with, try and comprehend/understand that such a horrendous crime occured.... it has to be believed that a crime even took place.... which is my point entirely.
It suggests that you believe that a crime even took place ...where we dont know if one truly did.
It means that you have to believe that the prosecutors were correct...
the content of the article is correct....
the alleged coroners report is correct....etc etc etc etc...
Lets say the reporter has quoted all the statements accurately....it still doesnt mean that a crime even occured.. I will agree that there is a prosecutor in Missouri who does in fact believe a crime took place.... but it doesnt mean he is right.
The article says a baby was raped and murdered but that is not proven.
We have no idea the circumstances of why he felt like that.
We have no idea if he influenced the coroner (by his suspicions of foul play rather than natural death)
In my origianl post that you quoted, I am pointing that the comments reflecting in this thread are where everyone is assuming there is truth and accuracy in the article and allegations which further allow the judgment of guilty being made..
Emotions coming out on allegations would only happen if you believe the allegation...
I write on this subject because I believe many of us dont actually have the self awareness (on the subject) that we believe too much of what we hear and read ..without researching it, and we are quick to opine guilt against someone where many of dont realize the weight carried by social media convictions...
this is not the case to argue that on...it is why you received hostile reactions but you just do not seem to understand the human dynamics at play here...and clearly there is no way for me to explain it to you ...
You are civil and polite and work hard at your presentation. So cheers to you.
this is not the case to argue that on...it is why you received hostile reactions but you just do not seem to understand the human dynamics at play here...and clearly there is no way for me to explain it to you ...
You are civil and polite and work hard at your presentation. So cheers to you.
No, no .. I do understand that the natural human dynamic is to believe what we read and hear... of course it is ....as we were taught too.. Its around us everywhere. We see all the big reporters bringing us the news and telling us about chrges laid agaisnt people where clearly the news report suggests that the person is guilty..
Lets face it.. we dont even know that the baby didnt die of natural causes .. all we know of are allegations..
Thats why I wrote the post to begin with.
I was pointing out that we shouldnt, as what we read and hear is unreliable...as well as the dangers of doing so..
I believe any hostility towards my post, was also human nature where some of us dont like to hear the truth about something that we do, that we dont want to believe.. and in contrast, I received a lot more positive feedback, than hostilty!
Sal,
Just one other quick point..
In our discussions it seems that we have talked about "members" hostilities (and praises) for that matter, but I want to point out that I read on this forum long before I joined and became vocal here.
I believe there are many people who read what goes on in forums who are not members and I know when I write a post, I always consider that others are also potentially reading..
You also opined that you didnt doubt anyone on this forum would doubt that wrongful convictions and false confessions dont occur.
Respectfully, I disagree as in my day to life I am always shocked to hear that many educated normal everyday people really dont have any idea of the magnitude of wrongful convictions, false confessions, and they too believe mostly everything they read and hear.. Its part of our society and I would like to encourage people to do their own research on the subject to inform themsleves and others, so to make our society a more fair and balnced place to live.
I'll give you this, nmd......... when you grab a bone there is not a dog in the world who is going to take it from you.
For the forty seventh time, this is a forum not a courtroom. We can take the report at face value and discuss it given that criteria. Of course people lie and people confess to sh*t to get attention blah, blah, blah. We don't care about that here. From what we've been told two low lifes mutilated and murdered a baby, actually there is not a hell of a lot more to discuss about that.
its called, getting the last word in, might not be over yet, me thinks.
I thought I had heard everything Mowich, but this crime takes the 'misery of human behavior' to
another level, but I suppose there are thousands we will never hear anything about, where
people have committed atrocities, and no one ever knew, but i'm sure glad that is not the case
here. They will pay for this, and pay dearly, but nothing can bring that innocent little child
back, but maybe that is lucky for her, as i'm sure there are other incidences we know
nothing about, that affected her young life.
JLM,
Are you saying that this forum's members/people (who you appear to talk on behalf of) dont bother to use any judgment of whether or not there is truth to an article?
The way ou keep saying "WEE WEE WEE..." implies that you are Canadian Content's police/spokesperson...
It appears that you feel I stand alone and am divided from you and the rest of the forum...
Do you feel like you are the other members representative?
Do you feel every other member on Canadian Content carries your views of what can and cant be discussed?
In case you havent been told before, I feel you come across as having a gang mentality approach when replying to any of mine (and several others posts) Some of your comments are only to jump on and say things lke "give her sh**t, and go girl etc...
Im not saying this to hurt your feelings but if you go back and even read your last post, it seems like you are speaking for everyone ...
where you look to gain support for by speaking for others ..in this case Sal...
Talloolllla,
Clearly you do believe everything you read....and sadly you dont offer the right to others as innocent till proven guilty...
You must wonder why trials are held when the coroners, prosecuters and investigators have already given their reports to the media.
I have explained how I think to you, no need to do it again, your statements of what you think I do or do not
do, are just words, and have no truth, and also have no affect on me, I read what you said about JLM,
and you also claim to be the spokesperson for everyone, as you state we 'all' believe everything we read
or hear thru the media. well, you don't speak for me, and you are wrong concerning me, and you can
blat away all want, what you 'think' I believe, and you are wrong, so run along now, and preach what
you think you know to others, there might be some who believe you, if they are the same ones who
believe everything they are told.
Me thinks, you are probably right.............but from the attempts that I have read to reason with this person, I wouldn't bet on it - that's what gave me the bone analogy. If some Big Dog does manage to wrestle it away, good on them........much credit due to persistence.
I can well understand how some folks are so effected by this crime - which it is no matter who the perp turns out to be - as it is so heinous and so completely against all that stands for good and decent in the world, they can't bring themselves to read about it. It is enough to raise the gorge of anyone. Other than this forum, I am not following the story - after hearing about the Baby Elaina story, I too had to turn away.
My attention is now given to all those folks in Alta and S. Sask where flooding has destroyed their homes and in many cases their livelihoods. As horrific as the flooding is, the stories of ordinary people helping out their fellow citizens is heart-warming.
Last edited:
I have done the same mowich, haven't even mentioned this crime to my husband, and he has said nothing to
me, and I know he saw it on the news, as he watches lots of news every morning.
My grandson was to play a golf tournament in Calgary, they arrived there tuesday I think. The tournament
is cancelled, but I know many of the players have offered to help with the flood situation, good for
them.
It is very scary watching the news shots showing the power of the water when it goes out of control,
I wish the best for everyone there.
Talloolllla,
You read my post incorrectly... lol
I said it appears that JLM feels that she is the forums spokesperson...sheeesh...go back and read it again..... lol
I heard on CTV that the tournie was cancelled talloola.........apparently the course is in the eastern part of the city and that is in the affected area. He will have a ring-side seat to the power of a flood. Offers of help are pouring in from all over Canada, talloola. Both Sask and Alta will be on high alert in many areas until Monday they are saying. It is almost beyond imagination how scary it must be to wait and see if your home will be washed away, let alone the heart-break you would feel for all those all ready affected.
:roll:
you are becoming pitiful, and jlm isn't a she, I'm not interested in your blabbering any more,
tell it to some suckers who might buy in, don't know any here, oh yeah, I know one.
O.K. let's do it your way. When a court decision is arrived at based on the discussions here, let me know and I will acknowledge it.
Sigh....................You still just don't get it!