Ontario compared to cash-strapped California

[shadowshiv]

"We will continue to make thoughtful choices."

Something that I will NEVER attribute to McLiar and his cronies. That's what happens when he gets voted in YET again.

I'd love to stay and help you look even more foolish than you do already, but there's a storm coming, and we have to take this stuff in the house.

It was nice seeing you again. Even if you were at your usual worst.

Not to worry. Douchebag's current incarnations have now been turfed. Of course, he's like the unwanted relative...always showing up again even though nobody can stand his annoying guts.

 

[SLM]

There must be one closer than what Britt says.... The dog's driving me bonkers.

Oh! Why can't it rain here!?!

I'm so ready to run out and dance in the rain. It would be heaven! Lol.

 

[shadowshiv]

Oh! Why can't it rain here!?!

I'm so ready to run out and dance in the rain. It would be heaven! Lol.

Didn't get much here, unfortunately.

 

[SLM]

Didn't get much here, unfortunately.

I wish I had a pool.

 

[shadowshiv]

I wish I had a pool.

Doesn't everyone? Of course, McGuinty would invite himself over for a swim.

 

[damngrumpy]

First of all both areas had an economic manufacturing and science background.
Both saw their area gutted by people like Romney who made millions dismantling
the factories, science centers and business districts to make a profit on the great
race to the bottom.
Besides I hear so much nonsense about anti union stuff The problem is in many
communities we no longer have those good paying jobs the union movement
brought, and secondly the unions were the backbone of social improvements and
that seems to be lacking too. The other distinct difference is, union employees bought
the housing and consumer goods that provided the work for union and non union
alike. In addition they supported the tax base in cities and towns that saw progress
in building schools, rec centers and the social structure of communities. Unions are
not the problem.,and neither is the small business guy.
The problem stems from governments who want to dismantle our system to the pleasure
of those who got them elected. Those people at the top don't pay their fair share of taxes,
they don't contribute to the value of communities either. Oh to some extent for tax deduction
purposes I concede that.
We need to enact rules that reward business for working here, and making it difficult to be
providing jobs offshore period.
In my time I have been both a union leader and a business general manager, and what I see
is the old polarization of everything, when in fact we need each other if we are going to get
back to the tops.

 

[SLM]

Doesn't everyone? Of course, McGuinty would invite himself over for a swim.

NIMBY

Lol.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Of course, another way to look at it is that the California fiscal crisis has simply been manufactured by conservatives to justify cuts to programs they don't want. I've always thought that the shortage of tax revenue in California was a bit of a joke. If the wealthiest state in the USA cannot balance its budget then what state can?

I also note in the article confusing use of the terms debt and deficit. The writer does not appear to know the difference. In fact the total Ontario debt is about $250 billion. California's is about $612 billion. In per capita terms that means that Ontarians owe about $18,000 each and Californians about $16,000 each.

This is not to say that the increasing debt in Ontario and California is not a problem. Sooner or later something will have to be done in both regions either through cuts to services, higher taxes, or both.

Just to throw in one more stat how do the total Canadian and US debts compare? Canadians owe about $16,000 each and Americans about $50,000.

 

[BaalsTears]

Of course, another way to look at it is that the California fiscal crisis has simply been manufactured by conservatives to justify cuts to programs they don't want. I've always thought that the shortage of tax revenue in California was a bit of a joke. If the wealthiest state in the USA cannot balance its budget then what state can?

I also note in the article confusing use of the terms debt and deficit. The writer does not appear to know the difference. In fact the total Ontario debt is about $250 billion. California's is about $612 billion. In per capita terms that means that Ontarians owe about $18,000 each and Californians about $16,000 each.

This is not to say that the increasing debt in Ontario and California is not a problem. Sooner or later something will have to be done in both regions either through cuts to services, higher taxes, or both.

Just to throw in one more stat how do the total Canadian and US debts compare? Canadians owe about $16,000 each and Americans about $50,000.

Actually, conservatives in California have no power. The collapse of this state is solely a leftist project.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Actually, conservatives in California have no power. The collapse of this state is solely a leftist project.

Rubbish. That comment shows a complete misunderstanding of US politics. The Americans don't have a major left wing party, at least certainly not by the standards of the rest of the world's democracies. Both the Democrats and the Republicans have been bought and sold by corporate America. As a result it doesn't matter which party holds power, the results are the same. To put things in proper perspective Canadian Conservative Stephen Harper is to the left of American "liberal" Barack Obama on many issues.

 

[BaalsTears]

Rubbish. That comment shows a complete misunderstanding of US politics. The Americans don't have a major left wing party, at least certainly not by the standards of the rest of the world's democracies. Both the Democrats and the Republicans have been bought and sold by corporate America. As a result it doesn't matter which party holds power, the results are the same. To put things in proper perspective Canadian Conservative Stephen Harper is to the left of American "liberal" Barack Obama on many issues.

The American political system has no analogue anywhere else in the world. We can only be judged on the basis of our own system...not by reference to any other system on this planet. Our political history makes us unique.

 

[Bar Sinister]

The American political system has no analogue anywhere else in the world. We can only be judged on the basis of our own system...not by reference to any other system on this planet. Our political history makes us unique.

Come on. A conservative is a conservative no matter where he lives. Right wing policies such as deregulation of the financial sector, anti-union policies; attempts to eliminate social programs; and low taxes on the wealthy are characteristics of conservatives world wide.

 

[BaalsTears]

Come on. A conservative is a conservative no matter where he lives. Right wing policies such as deregulation of the financial sector, anti-union policies; attempts to eliminate social programs; and low taxes on the wealthy are characteristics of conservatives world wide.

Conservatism is much more powerful in America than anywhere else in Western civilization. Conservatism has more cultural aspects in America. Abortion isn't a big issue in Canada. Neither is LGBTQ rights. Speech is more problematic in Canada. American conservatism still keeps faith with classical liberalism, while conservatism in Canada and Europe has to a much greater extent been co-opted by post modern liberalism with its emphasis on collectivism.

There is tremendous intellectual ferment among conservative circles in America. There is even a populist version of conservatism.

Quasi-isolationism is becoming a stronger force. The experience of the Bush years is ensuring that.

Small govt. types are willing to accept many aspects of social justice on the state and local level, but will never accept it at the federal level. This is basic.

There is even a California type of conservative...I call them radical conservatives...maybe they're more like fatalists.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Conservatism is much more powerful in America than anywhere else in Western civilization. Conservatism has more cultural aspects in America. Abortion isn't a big issue in Canada. Neither is LGBTQ rights. Speech is more problematic in Canada. American conservatism still keeps faith with classical liberalism, while conservatism in Canada and Europe has to a much greater extent been co-opted by post modern liberalism with its emphasis on collectivism.

There is tremendous intellectual ferment among conservative circles in America. There is even a populist version of conservatism.

Quasi-isolationism is becoming a stronger force. The experience of the Bush years is ensuring that.

Small govt. types are willing to accept many aspects of social justice on the state and local level, but will never accept it at the federal level. This is basic.

There is even a California type of conservative...I call them radical conservatives...maybe they're more like fatalists.

You are right about abortion being less of an issue in Canada, but that is not because US conservatives are different from those in Canada. Canada simply happens to be a more progressive country than the US. The same is true of other issues. We have lots of right wing nut cases up here, just not as many as the US. But you could be right. There are many forms of conservatism from those who are fiscally conservative but socially liberal to those who are religiously conserative. However, I beleive that due to the close proximity of the US to Canada and the huge influence of the US media in Canada, many conservatives in Canada have adopted principles almost identical to thos of US conservatives. There certainly are enough of them in the province I live in.

BTW I have no idea what LGBTQ rights are. Can you enlighten me?

 

[BaalsTears]

...many conservatives in Canada have adopted principles almost identical to thos of US conservatives....

Nah, they're way too reasonable. Down here we've learned that intransigence is the only thing that works politically. Conservatives in Canada aren't nearly as nihilistic.

BTW I have no idea what LGBTQ rights are. Can you enlighten me?

Full civil rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered and queer people. Like the right to marry, receive survivor's benefit as a matter of law, etc.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Nah, they're way too reasonable. Down here we've learned that intransigence is the only thing that works politically. Conservatives in Canada aren't nearly as nihilistic.

Perhaps my point of view has been distorted by observing the right wing idiots in this province.

 

[GroundWater]

The Ontario goverment needs to get " out of the business of business"

 

[Toro]

Of course, another way to look at it is that the California fiscal crisis has simply been manufactured by conservatives to justify cuts to programs they don't want. I've always thought that the shortage of tax revenue in California was a bit of a joke. If the wealthiest state in the USA cannot balance its budget then what state can?

I also note in the article confusing use of the terms debt and deficit. The writer does not appear to know the difference. In fact the total Ontario debt is about $250 billion. California's is about $612 billion. In per capita terms that means that Ontarians owe about $18,000 each and Californians about $16,000 each.

This is not to say that the increasing debt in Ontario and California is not a problem. Sooner or later something will have to be done in both regions either through cuts to services, higher taxes, or both.

Just to throw in one more stat how do the total Canadian and US debts compare? Canadians owe about $16,000 each and Americans about $50,000.

California spending doubled in 10 years. Spending rose from 13% of GDP to 17%. It's also a state that has been dominated by Democrats. So to say it has been manufactured by conservatives is pretty silly.

Come on. A conservative is a conservative no matter where he lives. Right wing policies such as deregulation of the financial sector, anti-union policies; attempts to eliminate social programs; and low taxes on the wealthy are characteristics of conservatives world wide.

This is false.

Like anyone, conservatives are influenced by their own cultures and histories. In America alone, the term "conservative" means different things. For example, social issues are more dominant in the South whereas in the West, conservatives tend to be more libertarian. Barry Goldwater and Pat Buchanan were both "conservatives" but both were very different conservatives.

 

[Locutus]

California spending doubled in 10 years. Spending rose from 13% of GDP to 17%. It's also a state that has been dominated by Democrats. So to say it has been manufactured by conservatives is pretty silly.

This is false.

Like anyone, conservatives are influenced by their own cultures and histories. In America alone, the term "conservative" means different things. For example, social issues are more dominant in the South whereas in the West, conservatives tend to be more libertarian. Barry Goldwater and Pat Buchanan were both "conservatives" but both were very different conservatives.

Nothing worse than someone that knows exactly what they're talking about, casually strolling into a 'I know you are but what am I' - 'my dad can beat your dad' standard left vs right argumentative CC thread and sorting us out.

Thanks a lot Toro. No bug off. :lol:

 

[jariax]

Per capita debt is higher

TORONTO - A new study that compares Ontario's crushing deficit to California's paints a bleak picture for the economic future of the province.

Both jurisdictions face deficits of about $16 billion, but when you compare population and economic output, Ontario's fiscal mess is worse, says the report by Fair Pensions for All, a citizens' group that studied the issue.

Ontario has approximately a third of California's population of nearly 38 million people and a third ($638 million) of its GDP, and that means the per capita debt is far higher: $16,638 per Ontarian versus $10,463 for Golden State residents.

California's problems have been grabbing headlines, including this week when the city of San Bernardino filed for bankruptcy.
But the state government is at least moving to control spending and tackle the deficit while Ontario is pretending that nothing is wrong, said Bill Tufts, executive director of Fair Pensions for All.

"Basically, in our opinion, not near enough has been done to deal with the realities that are out there," he said.

One of the biggest differences is how each jurisdiction is taking on public-sector costs. While California Governor Jerry Brown is seeking cuts to public-sector wages, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty is reluctant to chop.

"McGuinty is really trapped because he has been so heavily supported by the public sector unions," Tufts said. "To avoid a fiscal train wreck or bankruptcy in Ontario, we're going to have to deal with the public-sector unions and the Ontario government seems reluctant to do that."

In a report released this year, former TD Bank chief economist Don Drummond made 362 recommendations to balance the books by 2017-18 and avoid what he calls "a wrenching reduction from the path that spending is now on."

Following the release of the Drummond report, McGuinty said, "As a government, we will not make thoughtless, reckless, across-the-board cuts. We will continue to make thoughtful choices."

Lisa McLeod, a Conservative at the Ontario legislature, said her party has been waiting nine years for the government to rein in spending.

"I can just see that the debt and deficit is going to increase. He's not been a responsible manager of our economy, and now we're paying for it," she said.


Ont. compared to cash-strapped Calif. | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun

Hmmm...

It also seems as if lowering taxes across the board, while continuing to increase public sector salaries isn't an effective approach to deficit reduction. Hard to believe, really.