Socialist Party of Canada

Socialist

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Nov 19, 2010
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Never, in the history of the world, have so many people lived free, rich, and peacefully as they have in the last 100 years in the capitalist system.

Now, there are problems, adjustments need to be made, but to abandon this sustem in favour of an ideal that has seen its followers murder 100 million people is just off the wall.

And yes, read a little. Lenin, Che, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot etc were seeking the socialist paradise........the same one you seek.

I am currently reading Che; A Revolutionary Life. You sound just like him......he appreciated the Maoist model.....that cost at least 50 million lives.

Another true believer.

The purely socialist ideal is extremely discredited....to say the least.
Lenin? Mao? STALIN? No. They were not Socialist. They were in favour of "Authoritarian Communism" (Which *is* an oxymoron), Or as it is properly titled, State Capitalism.

How many people has Capitalism (including State Capitalism) killed? FAR more than 100 million.

You say "Never, in the history of the world, have so many people lived free, rich, and peacefully as they have in the last 100 years in the capitalist system." Well, to clarify. Never in the history of the world have so many people been subject to wage slavery, exploitation and greed, never has there been such a great difference in wealth between the rich and poor, never has there been more deaths in war (Did you forget World War II?) If anything, the last hundred years has been the WORST 100 years in terms of social ills.

Never has there been so many people stupid enough to believe that this is ''how it should be''.

Oxymoron.

The classless society is an idle dream of people with no class.
Not an oxymoron.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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OK, I have a question for the self-described socialists here. I'm assuming you don't believe that it would be possible to convince everyone to drop their curent system in favour of the purely moneyless socialist paradise you wish to implement overnight. Though pleae correct me if I'm wrong here.

Now if I'm wright (and again, feel free to correct me if any of my assumptions here are wrong), you recognize that it would in fact take a long period of education to convince people that your way is in fact the better way. Then there'd be the issue of finding a way to gradually implement the changes in a systematic fashion to ensure a smooth transition. We all know point A is what we have now. Let's call point B the ideal socialist paradise yo with to implement. Even if such a utopia is possible in theory, we'll never reach it without a plan of action, without a clear plan on how we will travel from point A to point B. So, what is that plan?

I would assume that part of the plan would be to convince people of part of the socialist ideal, implement it, and then show how well it worked, and then later convince peopel of another part, implement it, and then show how successful it's been ad so on down the road. If that is the intent, then let's change that chart a bit and say the final utopia is point Z. If that's teh case, so what would be point B, the first step?And point C? D? E? etc. Surtely you're not talking about converting everything overnight, are you?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Not an oxymoron.
Scientific socialism? It sure is. That's what Engels called it, to distinguish it from utopian socialism, Marx never used the phrase to describe his ideas. Any discipline that's credibly established itself as scientific has a group of theoretical and experimental practitioners and a body of results. Scientific socialism has only a body of theorists with very limited credibility. You've argued that every experiment in socialism wasn't really socialism, it was state capitalism or some other bastardization of Marx's ideas, the experiment's never actually been done, so you have no results. That's not a science. You might, however, usefully check out Seymour Lipsett's book Agrarian Socialism, about the CCF experience in Saskatchewan. It's probably the closest anyone's ever come to a real experiment in socialism, but even at its height private property and private businesses were still vital institutions, and it depended critically on a charismatic and very able leadership (which has since gone the way of the dodo), which your pure form of socialism wouldn't permit. It also seems worth pointing out that Marx's prediction of where it would happen first was wrong. He thought it'd happen first in advanced industrialized societies like the United States, and it seems fair to say that the United States is now farther away than it's ever been from a communist revolution. The revolutions happened first, and pretty much only, in undeveloped agrarian societies. Marx's ideas have been strongly influential, but it seems clear to me that history has proven him wrong.
 

Jroc

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Aug 23, 2010
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Now if I'm wright (and again, feel free to correct me if any of my assumptions here are wrong), you recognize that it would in fact take a long period of education to convince people that your way is in fact the better way. Then there'd be the issue of finding a way to gradually implement the changes in a systematic fashion to ensure a smooth transition.

Quite right. The Socialist Party recognizes that in order for socialism to work, the majority of people have to understand and want it. In order for this to occur, the working class needs to gain class consciousness and an understanding of what socialism is. This requires a large educational initiative on behalf of the party, which is why we are so focused on education rather than political campaigning. As opposed to all other so-called 'socialist' movements throughout history, the Socialist Party does not believe in the idea that people can be lead into socialism. The idea is that, if someone can lead the masses into socialism, someone else could lead them right back out. For this reason we reject all forms of vangaurdism.

The goal is to make as many socialists as possible, and to have representatives elected to parliament. Once a critical mass (a majority) of socialists are reached, there will be no need to move from step A to B to C etc., because the majority of people will already understand and know what needs to be done. Everything will have been prepared before the transition to socialism. There will of course be some major changes, but for the most part, everything that we will need to operate the new society already exists under capitalism. Most change will involve getting rid of the redundant and non socially productive aspects of capitalist society, such as accountancy, actuarial work and risk management, banking, financial management, investment management, marketing, cashiers, etc. etc. the list goes on. As I mentioned earlier, some economists have estimated that roughly 1 in 4 people are employed in work that is considered socially productive, that is producing things that actally fulfill human needs. The other 3/4th's are involved in work that have no real productive value, other than to carryout the administration of capital exchange.

There is a debate within the party's of the WSM as to how the transition from capitalism to socialism will take place. One side advocates an abrupt transition, while the other side argues the case for a gradual transition. Both arguments are well thought out, each having their merits and downfalls. Thats one of the beautiful aspects of the SPC's (and for that matter the WSM) democratic structure. Almost nothing is beyond debate. There are no party whips, or leaders to set policy agenda. All party line is democratically decided. But I digress...

One important point that is stressed by members of the SPC is that it would be undemocratic for us to give a blue print of what socialism will be and how we will achieve it. Those things need to be left up to the people involved at the time it happens. To give a blue print for socialism would be foolish and undemocratic because we cannot speak on behalf of the majority of people. Because the idea of socialism rest so heavily on democratic involvement (much more so than in liberal democracy), we feel that the most important decisions should always be left to the democratic process. For this reason, the only thing we can really do right now is to consistently put forth our case against capitalism, and for socialism.

To conclude my response, the best explanation for our party platform is expressed in our eight point declaration of principles. Numbers 3,4,5, and 6 are most pertinent to your inquiry;

The Socialist Party of Canada hold that:

1. Society as at present constituted is based upon the ownership of the means of living (i.e., land, factories, railways, etc.) by the capitalist or master class, and consequent enslavement of the working class, by whose labor alone wealth is produced.

2. In society, therefore, there is an antagonism of interests, manifesting itself as a class struggle between those who possess but do not produce, and those who produce but do not possess.

3. This antagonism can be abolished only by the emancipation of the working class from the domination of the master class, by the conversion into the common property of society of the means of production and distribution, and their democratic control by the whole people.

4. As in the order of social evolution the working class is the last class to achieve its freedom, the emancipation of the working class will involve the emancipation of all mankind, without distinction of race or sex.

5. This emancipation must be the work of the working class itself.

6. As the machinery of government, including the armed forces of the nation, exists only to conserve the monopoly by the capitalist class of the wealth taken from the workers, the working class must organize consciously and politically for the conquest of the powers of government, in order that this machinery, including these forces, may be converted from an instrument of oppression into the agent of emancipation and overthrow of plutocratic privilege.

7. As political parties are but the expression of class interests, and as the interest of the working class is diametrically opposed to the interest of all sections of the master class, the party seeking working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party.

8. The companion parties of socialism, therefore, enter the field of political action determined to stand against all other political parties, whether alleged labor or avowedly capitalist, and call upon all members of the working class of these countries to support these principles to the end that a termination may be brought to the system which deprives them of the fruits of their labor, and that poverty may give place to comfort, privilege to equality, and slavery to freedom.



Scientific socialism? It sure is. That's what Engels called it, to distinguish it from utopian socialism, Marx never used the phrase to describe his ideas. Any discipline that's credibly established itself as scientific has a group of theoretical and experimental practitioners and a body of results. Scientific socialism has only a body of theorists with very limited credibility. You've argued that every experiment in socialism wasn't really socialism, it was state capitalism or some other bastardization of Marx's ideas, the experiment's never actually been done, so you have no results. That's not a science.

Thank you for actually taking the time to think about your response. It seems that many people here are reactionary, lacking the ability to separate themselves from their narrow preconceptions of the world. However, at any rate, the scientific socialism that the SPC professes is concerned primarily with empirical observations of past and present social and economic trends. It uses historical materialism to observe the past and present and to make predictions for the future.When we say that socialism is scientific we do not mean that it is created by scientists in some Cold War Russian laboratory. We mean that it is based only on things that are directly observable, not simply the product of the ideas of man. Scientific socialists see capitalism and socialism as the result of the historical development of the material conditions of humankind, and not as a some social construct. In this sense, using the dialectic method, we can examine history and make the case that, like all other economic systems before it, capitalism will create the material conditions necessary for the establishment of socialism.
 
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FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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For a party that claims such involvement since 1905, how very odd that it apparently forgot to register as a political party with Elections Canada. How very sad that it is less influential, it would seem, than the Marijuana Party, or the Pirate Party of Canada.

Speaking to socialism as an ideology, I don't think that it would work in a modern context (that is, for a society to be completely socialist). Elements of the ideology work, certainly, when blended with others (such is the case in Canada, and many other nations). The issue with socialism, though, is that it cannot be implemented by democratic means. It is highly improbable that financially-well-off voters would support a party that would seek to redistribute what they have, to the less-fortunate, regardless of how altruistic and communitarian such a gesture might be.
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
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For a party that claims such involvement since 1905, how very odd that it apparently forgot to register as a political party with Elections Canada. How very sad that it is less influential, it would seem, than the Marijuana Party, or the Pirate Party of Canada.

Speaking to socialism as an ideology, I don't think that it would work in a modern context (that is, for a society to be completely socialist). Elements of the ideology work, certainly, when blended with others (such is the case in Canada, and many other nations). The issue with socialism, though, is that it cannot be implemented by democratic means. It is highly improbable that financially-well-off voters would support a party that would seek to redistribute what they have, to the less-fortunate, regardless of how altruistic and communitarian such a gesture might be.
The party lacks the funds to field candidates at this time, so, as I mentioned in my last post, for the time being we are focused on educational campaigns. To reply to your point about financially well off voters. The idea is that even the well off would see an improvement in their living conditions with the implementation of socialism, likely a drastic reduction in their work week.
 

Jroc

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Aug 23, 2010
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One would have thought that all members of the party would be willing to give all money that they have to the one candidate with the best chance of winning.

I wonder why they don't?

I dont see what your point is here... Do you have anything of substance to add to this thread?
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Socialism, communism? Same old same old. The Soviet Union had two classes. China has two classes. Cuba has two classes. It's a bunch of hooey. Those that preach socialism or communism only have one end game. Meism.
 

Jroc

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Aug 23, 2010
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Socialism, communism? Same old same old. The Soviet Union had two classes. China has two classes. Cuba has two classes. It's a bunch of hooey. Those that preach socialism or communism only have one end game. Meism.

It is obvious that you did not take the time to even look at any of the previous posts in this thread before commenting. As has been stated many times before, the Soviet Union, China, Cuba and all the rest who claim to be 'communist' or 'socialist' country's are actually state capitalist economys. They do not exibit even the basic conditions of socialism. Rather, they still have all the basic components of capitalism.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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It is obvious that you did not take the time to even look at any of the previous posts in this thread before commenting. As has been stated many times before, the Soviet Union, China, Cuba and all the rest who claim to be 'communist' or 'socialist' country's are actually state capitalist economys. They do not exibit even the basic conditions of socialism. Rather, they still have all the basic components of capitalism.

Nope didn't read every post. Guilty as charged. Didn't have to read every post though. You mentioned that your part lacks the funds for recognition by elections Canada. Why is that you suppose?
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
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Nope didn't read every post. Guilty as charged. Didn't have to read every post though. You mentioned that your part lacks the funds for recognition by elections Canada. Why is that you suppose?

Its pretty obvious that we dont currently enjoy the support from a large enough number of people. That however, does not make our platform or message any less valid. Just because something is not popularily accepted as true and good, does not make it false. Consider that there have been many brutal dictators in the past that have enjoyed the support by the majority of people.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Socialism still can't get over the issue with people who are born lazy, and those who are born selfish.

It's not something people are taught.

What is your plan for these people?
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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TenPenny;1350616[B said:
]Socialism still can't get over the issue with people who are born lazy, and those who are born selfish.[/B]

It's not something people are taught.

What is your plan for these people?

Actually you are not quite right here. Upbringing has a lot to do with it. I've known quite a few rotten, lazy, selfish useless little bastards quite often an only child raised by it's mother and handed everything. :smile:
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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Actually you are not quite right here. Upbringing has a lot to do with it. I've known quite a few rotten, lazy, selfish useless little bastards quite often an only child raised by it's mother and handed everything. :smile:

I've known selfish and lazy people who come from families where other siblings, who were raised the same way, were not.

I'm not saying that upbringing has nothing to do with it, but you cannot overlook the innate nature of people.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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I've known selfish and lazy people who come from families where other siblings, who were raised the same way, were not.

I'm not saying that upbringing has nothing to do with it, but you cannot overlook the innate nature of people.

That is true up to a point, you take a raw chunk of iron (or copper or lead) and there are limitations as to the products that can be made, but with processing the final product can be a vast improvement on the innate object. :smile: Am I making sense? :smile:
 

Socialist

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Nov 19, 2010
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For a party that claims such involvement since 1905, how very odd that it apparently forgot to register as a political party with Elections Canada. How very sad that it is less influential, it would seem, than the Marijuana Party, or the Pirate Party of Canada.

Speaking to socialism as an ideology, I don't think that it would work in a modern context (that is, for a society to be completely socialist). Elements of the ideology work, certainly, when blended with others (such is the case in Canada, and many other nations). The issue with socialism, though, is that it cannot be implemented by democratic means. It is highly improbable that financially-well-off voters would support a party that would seek to redistribute what they have, to the less-fortunate, regardless of how altruistic and communitarian such a gesture might be.
Socialism would not "re-distribute what they have". It would abolish money altogether, and subsequently, improve the lives of nearly everyone (Those lives it would not improve, it would keep the same standard, as the lives that could not be improved would be those of the rich, who have very good quality of life)

State Capitalism was probably what you were thinking, where there is still money, but it is more evenly distributed.

Nearly everyone in this thread still cannot grasp that State Capitalism is very different than Socialism, it seems.

I don't see what your point is here...Do you have anything of substance to add to this thread?
Repeating what we say isn't really helping your Holier-than-thou approach here.

Socialism still can't get over the issue with people who are born lazy, and those who are born selfish.

It's not something people are taught.

What is your plan for these people?
Human behavior is based upon the conditions in which a person is placed in.

You seem to think it's part of some people's 'nature', clearly this is not true, because if it was part of our nature, it would be true for (at least) the majority of us, which, evidently, it isn't.

Evolution says that if an substantial group (which you seem to think there is) of individuals in a species have certain traits, the other members of said species must also have said traits. Unless you think 'lazy people' are an inferior race?
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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That is true up to a point, you take a raw chunk of iron (or copper or lead) and there are limitations as to the products that can be made, but with processing the final product can be a vast improvement on the innate object. :smile: Am I making sense? :smile:

Of course.

It's not all nature, it's not all nurture.

Some socialists have said that it's all nurture, and that simply isn't true.