Free will versus determinism

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peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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Agreed, it doesn't credit or discredit them, but it DOES mean he hasn't proven his case. He's making empirical claims about human nature and the way the world works, insisting they're mathematically and scientifically correct, while arbitrarily redefining those terms to mean "undeniably," which is not what they mean. Until the testing is done, you cannot legitimately argue his claims are proven, all he's offered is anecdote and speculation, and the default position is "presumed false until tested."

Here's how it works.
1. Any true claim must in principle be falsifiable, as I explained above.
2. The arguments offered in support of it must be logical, coherent, and consistent
3. The evidence must be comprehensive, you must consider ALL evidence, not just what supports the claim.
4. The evidence must be evaluated honestly, without bias, self-deception, or deceiving others.
5. Any test must be duplicated by others, a single result is never adequate to prove a claim.
6. The evidence must be sufficient to establish the truth of the claim.
7. The burden of proof is on the claimant, it's not up to others to prove him wrong.

Lessans' work does not meet enough of those conditions for his claims to be accepted as true.

I just found this online and I think it applies to Lessans:

Since it seems to one unimaginable that P is false (or true) one concludes that it must be true (i.e. that it is necessarily true). It is also taken to be the case that the history of philosophy has demonstrated that experience cannot teach that something is necessary and so APJ is the only route to APK.

Now as an empiricist I want to deny that we have a priori knowledge but I want to allow there to be a priori justification. In other words I want to allow that rational seemings can provide justification even though they don’t provide (necessary) knowledge this is because rational seemings are, according to me, ultimately themselves dependent on how the world turns out. Suppose for the sake of argument that the above simple propositions are not in fact necessarily true. Suppose that they are just extremely well confirmed empirical generalizations. That is, suppose that the regularities of our Humean world regularly, and up until now reliably, provide us the kinds of experiences that justify instances of these propositions. Suppose further that you have organisms evolving in this environment. These organisms will likely develop systems that encapsulate these propositions. To these organisms these propositions will seem to be unimaginably false (or true) but they are not necessary truths (ex hypothesi) and they are ultimately justified by the organism’s ancestor’s experiences. But these propositions are true; it’s just that they aren’t necessarily true. So one can have knowledge that has a priori justification but that is not a priori knowledge. Now I am not here trying to give an argument for this view. I only mean to be pointing out that this is perfectly compatible with the empiricist view and so if one is careful one can be an empiricist and still think that we can have knowledge on the basis of a priori reasoning.

So far I have been only talking about knowledge of how the world actually is. Nothing has been said about the way it could be. reasoning about modality seems to me to be fundamentally rooted in our ability to imagine or conceive of various situations. Conceivability has traditionally thought to be a guide to what is possible and to be bounded only by what is contradictory. That this be true is certainly conceivable (just as is the empiricist version above). We may not know that it is true but it does seem like a possibility. So, for instance, it is almost impossible to see what it could even mean to say that [](A=A) is false…I mean that would have to mean that there was some thing picked out by ‘A’ which was identical to itself in some conceivable situations but was not identical to itself in other conceivable situations. That just intuitively seems contradictory! But, wait, we can have rational seemings in the absence of necessary truth. So, famously, when some people offered “proofs” of the parallel postulate they were accepted as correct until some mistake in the proof was discovered. If so, then there was a time when people could have a priori justification for something which turns out to be demonstrably false. So perhaps our intuition that justifies our belief in [](A=A) and the like are also suspect. As a counter example David Rosenthal talks about identity statements like [](A=A) beg the question by assuming the notion of rigid designation. If one doesn’t assume that it is of course not necessary. But it seems to me that the 2-D response has legs here: we can have both. Intuitions about rigidity are explained by the secondary intension and the corresponding kinds of possibility. Intuitions about the non-necessity of identities are explained by the primary intension and the corresponding kind of possibility. In short then as long as we see rational intuition as defeasible justification (defeasible in particular by experience) then we can accept the a priori justification of [](A=A) in the absence of defeaters which we have yet to find anyway

To sum up then; I think I can know that for any A, A=A a priori but not that [](A=A) yet even so I think that I have good justification for believing [](A=A) and []~(P & ~P) and so we have good justification of modal talk.
 

Bcool

Dilettante
Aug 5, 2010
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When a sensible person finds all the traffic approaching them on a one way street, they very quickly change course. :lol:
Exactly! But what if a person who finds themselves in that situation insists that the oncoming traffic is travelling in the wrong direction and must yield and turn back, that the signage & traffic authorities are all in error, that the whole system governing that street is incapable of recognizing the "facts" that make the direction this person is travelling in the correct one? Indeed, is s/he capable of recognizing the Traffic Court Judge's authority to make a judgement regarding them and, very possibly, ruling on their right to hold a driver's permit?
 

JLM

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Exactly! But what if a person who finds themselves in that situation insists that the oncoming traffic is travelling in the wrong direction and must yield and turn back, that the signage & traffic authorities are all in error, that the whole system governing that street is incapable of recognizing the "facts" that make the direction this person is travelling in the correct one? Indeed, is s/he capable of recognizing the Traffic Court Judge's authority to make a judgement regarding them and, very possibly, ruling on their right to hold a driver's permit?

He/she dies, physically in that case, socially in some.
 

Dexter Sinister

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I just found this online and I think it applies to Lessans:
I don't. He seems to be saying that we're justified in believing something is true as long as it seems reasonable and we don't know of any reason not to. I don't think that's sensible, belief is justified by reasons to think something is true, not an absence of reasons to think it's false. Even if it were sensible, it doesn't apply to Lessans, because what he claims does not seem reasonable, people will not behave as magnanimously as he predicts once they understand his insights. It seems entirely contrary to human nature.

It would be a boon to comprehension if you or Richard Brown (here's the link you should have provided: Empiricism and A Priori Justification Philosophy Sucks! ) had explained the meaning of the symbols in a statement like "[](A=A) and []~(P & ~P)"
 
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peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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I don't. He seems to be saying that we're justified in believing something is true as long as it seems reasonable and we don't know of any reason not to. I don't think that's sensible, belief is justified by reasons to think something is true, not an absence of reasons to think it's false. Even if it were sensible, it doesn't apply to Lessans, because what he claims does not seem reasonable, people will not behave as magnanimously as he predicts once they understand his insights. It seems entirely contrary to human nature.

It would be a boon to comprehension if you or Richard Brown (here's the link you should have provided: Empiricism and A Priori Justification Philosophy Sucks! ) had explained the meaning of the symbols in a statement like "[](A=A) and []~(P & ~P)"

The operative word Dexter is 'seems'. What seems to be false is often true. I believe his explanation as to how conscience works is correct, and I believe his explanation as to why man's will is not free is correct. If his premises were found to be correct, then his conclusions about human nature, and how it works, would also be correct. His work needs to be thoroughly investigated before anyone can come to the conclusion that it's not reasonable. Anyway, it's not worth discussing anymore because you don't believe he has anything of value to offer, and that's okay.
 

karrie

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It doesn't need to be thoroughly investigated. I can tell you right now that the premise that people would never do anything wrong if they knew they'd never be blamed for it, is wrong. It is something that would work only if everyone functioned exactly the same (and even then it's debatable). It would not apply to a world where not everyone has a conscience, or where some people are mentally ill.
 

Bcool

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  1. peacegirl #373: " . . It just so happens that Einstein was Jewish, and so was Lessans, not that that means anything, but it is a factor that I hope you consider. I know I will be beaten up for this, and I'm not sure I can handle it. :-( "
  2. peacegirl #373: "When did I ever say that the people I am conversing with are not good people. Come on Curiosity. Tell me the truth."
  3. peacegirl #373: "I really don't care about your personal opinion Bcool. You are no better than anyone else, even with your 'professional opinion' which you value so highly. You are trying so hard to make me wrong, but you can't do this if I'm not wrong. And you have no way of knowing this if you didn't study the book. So why don't you just cool down Bcool (how hypocritical can anyone get) and just relax. I don't want you to have a heart attack on account of me. :-( "
  4. Peacegirl #381: "I just found this online and I think it applies to Lessans:"
1. Now using the anti-semetic card on this forum, with the exception of a few very irrational individuals who are not on this thread so far, is not going to favourably influence the good folks here who are being so amazingly patient & tolerant with you. Far from it, you've just intimated that we will be anti-semetic in our responses, more than a little insulting. I personally find it a very familiar tactic but as always - highly offensive. But I think you know all too well which phrases will cause the intolerant, racist bigots who will agree with anything provided it backs up their hate-mongering to sniff the air & follow the scent to this thread. You know that trick, I and many others here know it too. Are you that obsessed that you need sink to such desperate levels?

2. Next the challenge to "tell the truth" about that which Curiosity has amply demonstrated in her gentle tolerance and kindness. Another tactic often used to generate a defensive response, thus continuing a thread where you sense you are losing your audience and control. Also, your challenge would be somewhat humourous if it were not for your own disproving of your claim in light of your comments regarding me in this and other threads.

3. You're trying to confuse & obfuscate. I have made no claims to having a 'professional opinion', but you know that. "hypocritical" & "hypocrite" - oh my! #1 in any troll's pitiful arsenal. I'm not saying you are a troll, your personal issues are too severe IMO to be classed with such Net dregs. But you appear to have picked up some rather familiar tactics in your long and obsessive sojourn on the web. Appeals for pity, claims of feeling "hurt", of being too sensitive to handle what you claim to be attacks; amidst posts in which you do the same to others - again very familiar tactics. I would suggest discarding them here, the people here are experienced and very intelligent and very quickly recognize such familiar posting patterns.

4. No citations given, no URLs, no source information whatever? You know better than that. It cannot be given any credence in support of any argument whatsoever, especially one re empirical claims. A cursory glance suggested to me that this is something you yourself have written in the hopes of deflecting Dexter's definition of what Lessans had not done re empirical testing. However, that you are the author of this unsubstantiated quote is merely a question mark that comes to my mind on a personal level, I have no way to prove or disprove my supposition without attempting to do a web search on the text. Too time consuming for me, and why should I? You want us to accept it as proof, give us the citations & copy the URL from your browser's History.

Repetitive I know, but sincerely meant. Again: Please seek accredited professional medical help.
________________________________
 

peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
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It doesn't need to be thoroughly investigated. I can tell you right now that the premise that people would never do anything wrong if they knew they'd never be blamed for it, is wrong. It is something that would work only if everyone functioned exactly the same (and even then it's debatable). It would not apply to a world where not everyone has a conscience, or where some people are mentally ill.

Karrie, I already said that it would take time for mental illness to disappear, but that does NOT negate this discovery. And if Lessans' observation as to how conscience works is correct, then all people would react the same way to these new conditions. I realize it's difficult to even imagine because so many people are mentally ill and have no conscience in today's world. Your belief that not everyone has a conscience is understandable, but they have done studies where it shows children as young as 2 have a conscience. It's only when children are exposed to an unhealthy environment that conscience loses its ability to control behavior. If you disagree, that's fine. You are certainly entitled to believe what you want.


  1. peacegirl #373: " . . It just so happens that Einstein was Jewish, and so was Lessans, not that that means anything, but it is a factor that I hope you consider. I know I will be beaten up for this, and I'm not sure I can handle it. :-( "
  2. peacegirl #373: "When did I ever say that the people I am conversing with are not good people. Come on Curiosity. Tell me the truth."
  3. peacegirl #373: "I really don't care about your personal opinion Bcool. You are no better than anyone else, even with your 'professional opinion' which you value so highly. You are trying so hard to make me wrong, but you can't do this if I'm not wrong. And you have no way of knowing this if you didn't study the book. So why don't you just cool down Bcool (how hypocritical can anyone get) and just relax. I don't want you to have a heart attack on account of me. :-( "
  4. Peacegirl #381: "I just found this online and I think it applies to Lessans:"
1. Now using the anti-semetic card on this forum, with the exception of a few very irrational individuals who are not on this thread so far, is not going to favourably influence the good folks here who are being so amazingly patient & tolerant with you. Far from it, you've just intimated that we will be anti-semetic in our responses, more than a little insulting. I personally find it a very familiar tactic but as always - highly offensive. But I think you know all too well which phrases will cause the intolerant, racist bigots who will agree with anything provided it backs up their hate-mongering to sniff the air & follow the scent to this thread. You know that trick, I and many others here know it too. Are you that obsessed that you need sink to such desperate levels?

2. Next the challenge to "tell the truth" about that which Curiosity has amply demonstrated in her gentle tolerance and kindness. Another tactic often used to generate a defensive response, thus continuing a thread where you sense you are losing your audience and control. Also, your challenge would be somewhat humourous if it were not for your own disproving of your claim in light of your comments regarding me in this and other threads.

3. You're trying to confuse & obfuscate. I have made no claims to having a 'professional opinion', but you know that. "hypocritical" & "hypocrite" - oh my! #1 in any troll's pitiful arsenal. I'm not saying you are a troll, your personal issues are too severe IMO to be classed with such Net dregs. But you appear to have picked up some rather familiar tactics in your long and obsessive sojourn on the web. Appeals for pity, claims of feeling "hurt", of being too sensitive to handle what you claim to be attacks; amidst posts in which you do the same to others - again very familiar tactics. I would suggest discarding them here, the people here are experienced and very intelligent and very quickly recognize such familiar posting patterns.

4. No citations given, no URLs, no source information whatever? You know better than that. It cannot be given any credence in support of any argument whatsoever, especially one re empirical claims. A cursory glance suggested to me that this is something you yourself have written in the hopes of deflecting Dexter's definition of what Lessans had not done re empirical testing. However, that you are the author of this unsubstantiated quote is merely a question mark that comes to my mind on a personal level, I have no way to prove or disprove my supposition without attempting to do a web search on the text. Too time consuming for me, and why should I? You want us to accept it as proof, give us the citations & copy the URL from your browser's History.

Repetitive I know, but sincerely meant. Again: Please seek accredited professional medical help.
________________________________

I have no idea why you're here. That's all I have to say. :-(
 
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peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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You know very well why. Just as I understand why it disturbs and makes you angry. I don't want to do either, but I cannot do nothing.

Please get accredited professional medical help.
_________________

I'm really not angry, just taken aback by your vitriol. It's very obvious that you are projecting your own issues onto me. Therefore, it is YOU that needs professional medical :help:.
 

JLM

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I'm really not angry, just taken aback by your vitriol. It's very obvious that you are projecting your own issues onto me. Therefore, it is YOU that needs professional medical :help:.

How long are you going to continue fooling yourself? Being as obsessed as you apparently are over this issue just isn't normal. (I believe this is the only thread you've participated in)
 

peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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How long are you going to continue fooling yourself? Being as obsessed as you apparently are over this issue just isn't normal. (I believe this is the only thread you've participated in)

I really thought you were interested in this knowledge, but I can see that you were trying all along to make a big joke of this thread; something to give you a temporary thrill. As I said before, this is not about obsession; I'm just passionate about something that is unprecedented. In these forums the same things get regurgitated in a slightly different form. I believe that's why people are so angry at me because this is not just about regurgitation. What can I say JLM? Should I give up what I know to be true because I grew up with this knowledge and didn't have the baggage as a child that other people have? I know I must stop coming to online forums as soon as the book is published. There has to be a better way and I will find it whether it's youtube, twitter, blogging, or facebook. There will be a breakthrough eventually, and I need to be patient. The reason I haven't gone to other threads is because that's not why I am here. I am here to share a discovery, and that's it. If you have suspicions about this, I don't know how to overcome them. I suggest that you just move on to another thread as much as I wish you would stick with me.
 
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karrie

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Karrie, I already said that it would take time for mental illness to disappear, but that does NOT negate this discovery. And if Lessans' observation as to how conscience works is correct, then all people would react the same way to these new conditions. I realize it's difficult to even imagine because so many people are mentally ill and have no conscience in today's world. Your belief that not everyone has a conscience is understandable, but they have done studies where it shows children as young as 2 have a conscience. It's only when children are exposed to an unhealthy environment that conscience loses its ability to control behavior. If you disagree, that's fine. You are certainly entitled to believe what you want.

That's the problem peacegirl... it would take time for mental illness to disappear. Why would it take time? Because humanity does NOT currently meet the 'undeniable' laws Lessans says it does. His 'undeniable truths' and his Utopian view, are of a humanity he imagines could exist if everything all went perfectly, not a humanity that exists now. That makes it a wish, not a truth. Not a fact. A fairytale.
 

peacegirl

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For anyone who is new to this thread, here is the online link to the book that is bringing such controversy. Click on the first thread entitled: New Discovery

Philosophy | University of Northern Colorado - The Agora

That's the problem peacegirl... it would take time for mental illness to disappear. Why would it take time? Because humanity does NOT currently meet the 'undeniable' laws Lessans says it does. His 'undeniable truths' and his Utopian view, are of a humanity he imagines could exist if everything all went perfectly, not a humanity that exists now. That makes it a wish, not a truth. Not a fact. A fairytale.

Even if it took time for mental illness to disappear does in acutality meet the 'undeniable truths' that Lessans proposes. You are assuming that crimes will continue without any abatement, but this is not true. The few people in society which everyone is focusing on, may have a conscience that is so destroyed that it cannot contain itself. We don't know who these people are yet. But this does not take away from the millions of people whose conscience is not severed. Why does everybody zoom in on one tiny aspect of society? If someone was that ill (as I mentioned many times), we would take them off the streets, just as we do today, but not to punish them.
 

karrie

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The people who will do something if they think that they can get away with it, are not just a small part of society, and I zoom in on the smaller more drastic aspect to attempt to illustrate to you that they do indeed, undeniably, exist.

humanity has been studied by the field of psychology intensively for decades. From our willingness to hurt one another if someone else tells us to, to our tendency to lie to ourselves, to the phenomena of us ignoring people in distress if we simply think someone else will deal with it. We are not Utopian, simple to understand animals. While Lessans might have an argument for the absence of free will, the leap to it creating a Utopia is simply an illogical leap.
 

peacegirl

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Aug 23, 2010
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The people who will do something if they think that they can get away with it, are not just a small part of society, and I zoom in on the smaller more drastic aspect to attempt to illustrate to you that they do indeed, undeniably, exist.

humanity has been studied by the field of psychology intensively for decades. From our willingness to hurt one another if someone else tells us to, to our tendency to lie to ourselves, to the phenomena of us ignoring people in distress if we simply think someone else will deal with it. We are not Utopian, simple to understand animals. While Lessans might have an argument for the absence of free will, the leap to it creating a Utopia is simply an illogical leap.

karrie, you are just listening to the same old explanations of the 'professionals'. I understand why you feel this way, but I don't know how to get you to at least consider the possibility that war and crime do not have to continue. there is no illogical leap. The whole point of this discovery is to show how we can no longer lie to ourselves. Yes, we are animals and that is exactly why we obey the laws of our nature, but these laws have not been completely understood by even the most expert psychologists and psychiatrists in the field. I do understand why you are so skeptical. I just hope you contain your skepticism enough to give this author a chance. If not, it's okay too. I don't have an investment in this forum.
 
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karrie

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No, I'm not just listening to the professionals. I have my own observations of humanity under my belt too. If I was merely listening to professionals I'd have posted studies for you to peruse. Everything in my own experiences, my own gut, AND what I know of professional psychology, tells me that his assertion would hold true only in an idealized, perfect world, where humanity was wired to think as he demands. But we are none of those things, and bringing them about would be impossible.
 

JLM

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I really thought you were interested in this knowledge, but I can see that you were trying all along to make a big joke of this thread; something to give you a temporary thrill. As I said before, this is not about obsession; I'm just passionate about something that is unprecedented. In these forums the same things get regurgitated in a slightly different form. I believe that's why people are so angry at me because this is not just about regurgitation. What can I say JLM? Should I give up what I know to be true because I grew up with this knowledge and didn't have the baggage as a child that other people have? I know I must stop coming to online forums as soon as the book is published. There has to be a better way and I will find it whether it's youtube, twitter, blogging, or facebook. There will be a breakthrough eventually, and I need to be patient. The reason I haven't gone to other threads is because that's not why I am here. I am here to share a discovery, and that's it. If you have suspicions about this, I don't know how to overcome them. I suggest that you just move on to another thread as much as I wish you would stick with me.

Peacegirl- I can't imagine why you would keep arguing with someone like Karrie about this. She knows what she is talking about. From my perspective I have two comments to make. To come to correct conclusions on any issue, you have to begin with an open mind and you have to listen to all sources (most of them may not be reliable, but it's the one in a hundred or one in a thousand that may hold the key). To get the complete and accurate answer you have to keep sorting through input, tossing out what can't be substantiated and layer by layer adding what can be substantiated. Your approach is most unscientific and you badly lack ability in human relations. Get over it.

You go on and on about what you've seen. Think about this- the police interview hundreds of "witnesses" everyday who swear up and down about what they've "seen" only to have it come out later it was just a figment of their imagination.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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I understand why you feel this way, but I don't know how to get you to at least consider the possibility that war and crime do not have to continue. there is no illogical leap. The whole point of this discovery is to show how we can no longer lie to ourselves.

Sorry to interject here as I haven't been following this thread that thoroughly.. but in your view, if war ceased to exist, for instance, would you consider this development to be consistent with the theme of determinism?
 
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