Time For Private Property Rights On Aboriginal Reserves

[CDNBear]

I foudn this thread about the aboriginal man who let his children freeze in the snow.

Wow, that's old. Should I post the thousands of articles I just dug up on one google search about Non Native people abusing their children, children dying in the custody of CAS and so on?

Should that search force me to generalize all Non Natives as child abusing low life's?

To say aboriginals don't have more social problems that require govt intervention than the general public is just babble.

Actually, what you just posted was babble. What you should have said was "Natives have more social issues per capita.". Then I would agree.

So who are all those people at Main and Hastings in Vancouver?

Don't know, Vancouver is exactly the end all of proof that Natives are the root of all evil. But I see mostly while and black homeless in Tdot. Does that mean homeless are all white?

Are they all white?

No, and they aren't all Native either.

Asking a lot of simple minded questions does no one no good.

And you think making simpleminded generalizations does? 8O

Check out this CBC article stating that 585 of on reserve aboriginals are not graduating from university. Oh yeah, everything's great.

I'd love for you to show me where I've ever stated that everything was good? Hell, I'd love for you to show me where I have removed our own responsibility or accountability? I'm an "Apple" dude. Well according to many of my Native friends anyways. Because I don't buy the whole "Whitey" is out to get us.

But then along comes people like you. That have based their myopic opinion on even more my

I recall seeing on TV how a young aboriginal man said he had to learn English when he came to Vancouver.

So does that mean all immigrants and Quebecois are bad too?

Oh, yeah, everything's great. Then there's the prison population.

Are you aware of the racism that permeates the courts? Not that that negates the criminality in some portions of my people. But you likely aren't aware that even the Gov't has started to look at why evidence has been tossed, witness excluded and Natives have been railroaded through the justice system.

Seems people like you hold positions behind the bench too.

You and the other guy are of the arrogant opinion that Canadians who are white shouldn't even be allowed to talk or think at all about aboriginals.

Bullsh!t. Talk, ask question, don't spread your crap like it's fact, or like it applies to every Native across Canada.

Fat chance. Get a grip. Just keep paying and feel guilty forever. Time for reform.

You think you have to pay because of guilt? Try because you're leasing our land. The contracts are written. You have to abide by them. Or you become the criminal you think we all are.

Just punch in "aboriginals prison population" into google and tell me what you find. You will find about 5% of the population make up near half of the prison population. Not very good news.

I agree.

Above: not 585, but 58% of aboriginals in Sask don't graduate.

That's sad.

Now, are you capable of viewing material that discusses the issues behind those sad figures objectively?

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Quoting dumpthemonarchy I foudn this thread about the aboriginal man who let his children freeze in the snow.
​

Wow, that's old. Should I post the thousands of articles I just dug up on one google search about Non Native people abusing their children, children dying in the custody of CAS and so on?

Should that search force me to generalize all Non Natives as child abusing low life's?

Quote: To say aboriginals don't have more social problems that require govt intervention than the general public is just babble.
​

Actually, what you just posted was babble. What you should have said was "Natives have more social issues per capita.". Then I would agree.

Quote:
So who are all those people at Main and Hastings in Vancouver?​

Don't know, Vancouver is exactly the end all of proof that Natives are the root of all evil. But I see mostly while and black homeless in Tdot. Does that mean homeless are all white?

Quote: Are they all white?
​

No, and they aren't all Native either.

Quote: Asking a lot of simple minded questions does no one no good.
​

And you think making simpleminded generalizations does? :shock:

Quote: Check out this CBC article stating that 585 of on reserve aboriginals are not graduating from university. Oh yeah, everything's great.
​

I'd love for you to show me where I've ever stated that everything was good? Hell, I'd love for you to show me where I have removed our own responsibility or accountability? I'm an "Apple" dude. Well according to many of my Native friends anyways. Because I don't buy the whole "Whitey" is out to get us.

But then along comes people like you. That have based their myopic opinion on even more my

Quote: I recall seeing on TV how a young aboriginal man said he had to learn English when he came to Vancouver.
​

So does that mean all immigrants and Quebecois are bad too?

Quote: Oh, yeah, everything's great. Then there's the prison population.
​

Are you aware of the racism that permeates the courts? Not that that negates the criminality in some portions of my people. But you likely aren't aware that even the Gov't has started to look at why evidence has been tossed, witness excluded and Natives have been railroaded through the justice system.

Seems people like you hold positions behind the bench too.

Quoting dumpthemonarchy You and the other guy are of the arrogant opinion that Canadians who are white shouldn't even be allowed to talk or think at all about aboriginals.
​

Bullsh!t. Talk, ask question, don't spread your crap like it's fact, or like it applies to every Native across Canada.

Quote: Fat chance. Get a grip. Just keep paying and feel guilty forever. Time for reform.
​

You think you have to pay because of guilt? Try because you're leasing our land. The contracts are written. You have to abide by them. Or you become the criminal you think we all are.

Quote: Just punch in "aboriginals prison population" into google and tell me what you find. You will find about 5% of the population make up near half of the prison population. Not very good news.
​

I agree.

Quote: Above: not 585, but 58% of aboriginals in Sask don't graduate.
​

That's sad.

Now, are you capable of viewing material that discusses the issues behind those sad figures objectively?
-------------------------------

Canadians are not leasing land from anybody. Canada has sovereignty here. Check any atlas, reserves get no mention. Treaties are contracts that can change over time and they are not eternal. One definition of a lease means the leasee eexpects to get it back at a specified time. This is not going to happen.

The leader of the NDP in BC, Carol James, has made the silly statement that Canada is stolen land.

Aborignals have far more social issues per capita. And I think it will get worse because many aboriginals are leaving reserves and looking for work in the big city and they have few skills. I have a cousin from a small town on the prairies and he said Regina was so busy he couldn't handle it. I just laughed inside because Regina is just a burgh. And he had skills. So obviously for aboriginals it will be far tougher in Vancouver or Toronto.

The homeless in Vancouver tend to be 90% white and aboriginal.

Most whiteys are against Apples because they are a mystery. You fear what you don't know. A small elite want to give aboriginals a break, but most Canadians just can't figure out aboriginals. Remember, almost no history is taught in schools so these dark skinned people that show up from who knows where are going to have a tough time getting a break from the masses.

 

[CDNBear]

...

Now, are you capable of viewing material that discusses the issues behind those sad figures objectively?

So the answer is no then.
-------------------------------

Canadians are not leasing land from anybody.

Unfortunately, that is what you're saying, not me.

Canada has sovereignty here.

I never said you didn't. You're saying my Nation doesn't. Since my Nation fit the criteria, before Canada did, and was only shut out because of racist motives and the abuse of law. Doesn't mean we have to roll over and play dead.

You wouldn't, so why should we?

Check any atlas, reserves get no mention.

Your point?

Treaties are contracts that can change over time and they are not eternal.

Unfortunately the wording and international convention dictates otherwise. I find it it hilarious, that someone such as yourself, who so vehemently dispises these things, that you wouldn't find the time to at least research them so you wouldn't look so silly. And if you say that they can change with time, then you are saying they are a lease agreement.

One definition of a lease means the leasee eexpects to get it back at a specified time. This is not going to happen.

I agree, so if we aren't going to get our land back, you will have to continue to uphold your end of the contract.

The leader of the NDP in BC, Carol James, has made the silly statement that Canada is stolen land.

In some cases, it is.

Aborignals have far more social issues per capita. And I think it will get worse because many aboriginals are leaving reserves and looking for work in the big city and they have few skills.

I agree.

I have a cousin from a small town on the prairies and he said Regina was so busy he couldn't handle it. I just laughed inside because Regina is just a burgh. And he had skills. So obviously for aboriginals it will be far tougher in Vancouver or Toronto.

Your point? My best friend in the world other then SCB, is white. He's in Tdot on a job right now and hates it. It's too busy, it smells and he hates the crowds.

I live in a rural area because I hate the big city.

Was there a point to your rant?

The homeless in Vancouver tend to be 90% white and aboriginal.

So?

Most whiteys are against Apples because they are a mystery.

I think most 'whiteys' are against many things because they lack any real knowledge of them.

You fear what you don't know.

Couldn't agree more, hence why you fear us "injuns".

A small elite want to give aboriginals a break, but most Canadians just can't figure out aboriginals.

Then why not ask? Seek knowledge? I'm most definitely not the end all of Injuns. But I'm a decent place to start, and I love to share what I know about my peeps.

Remember, almost no history is taught in schools so these dark skinned people that show up from who knows where are going to have a tough time getting a break from the masses.

You're preaching to the choir DTM. You do know that there have been other Native members here at CC who have questioned my loyalty to the breed? I am very critical of my people. I am fully aware of the problems that we create for ourselves. How we perpetuate myths and stereotypes. When I say they call me apple, I mean they really call me an apple. Many think I'm a sell out and an abomination. I choose to believe the exact opposite. I am what they should strive to be. Self sufficient and independent, with a healthy dose of reality and a full knowledge of where I came from. So my real culture will not be lost.

 

[Cliffy]

BC is stolen land. Almost none of it is under treaty. The resources of this province have been raped with almost no compensation to the rightful owners. The government even declared one nation extinct so they didn't have to include them in the negotiations with the US over the Columbia River Treaty. They still refuse to acknowledge their existence today because that treaty is coming up for renegotiation in 4 years.

The Sinixt people were the first, in 1991, to have the bones of their ancestors returned for re internment. Since then most nations in Canada and the US have requested their bones back. Not bad for an extinct people - starting a revolution. But they are, as far as I know, the only cross border culture to be refused access to the 80% of their territory, which is in Canada. Because of a road block in 1989 to protect their burial ground at Vallican, BC, most Sinixt people living on the Colville Reservation in Washington State are not allowed to cross the border to visit their sacred sites or to hunt and fish.

 

[Mowich]

They are often in the middle of nowhere, so why visit? They are generally not set up for tourism so they are not that keen on visitors.

We drive right through the middle of the Canim Lake Reserve which is divided, more or less in half, by Canim-Hendrix road. This is true of a few reserves in BC. You can visit the band office and talk to members and find out about governance and other matters. The band holds pow-wows and other cultural events that are open to the public.

I agree that individual natives should be given the right to own their own homes and land, to do with as they please.

 

[coldstream]

It'll be the end of the Reserve system. Once the rights of property are instituted they will ultimately trump the rights of the community, the tribe, to control their use and their resale.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

So the answer is no then.
-------------------------------

Unfortunately, that is what you're saying, not me.

I never said you didn't. You're saying my Nation doesn't. Since my Nation fit the criteria, before Canada did, and was only shut out because of racist motives and the abuse of law. Doesn't mean we have to roll over and play dead.

You wouldn't, so why should we?

Your point?
Unfortunately the wording and international convention dictates otherwise. I find it it hilarious, that someone such as yourself, who so vehemently dispises these things, that you wouldn't find the time to at least research them so you wouldn't look so silly. And if you say that they can change with time, then you are saying they are a lease agreement.
I agree, so if we aren't going to get our land back, you will have to continue to uphold your end of the contract.

In some cases, it is.

I agree.

Your point? My best friend in the world other then SCB, is white. He's in Tdot on a job right now and hates it. It's too busy, it smells and he hates the crowds.

I live in a rural area because I hate the big city.

Was there a point to your rant?


So?
I think most 'whiteys' are against many things because they lack any real knowledge of them.

Couldn't agree more, hence why you fear us "injuns".

Then why not ask? Seek knowledge? I'm most definitely not the end all of Injuns. But I'm a decent place to start, and I love to share what I know about my peeps.

You're preaching to the choir DTM. You do know that there have been other Native members here at CC who have questioned my loyalty to the breed? I am very critical of my people. I am fully aware of the problems that we create for ourselves. How we perpetuate myths and stereotypes. When I say they call me apple, I mean they really call me an apple. Many think I'm a sell out and an abomination. I choose to believe the exact opposite. I am what they should strive to be. Self sufficient and independent, with a healthy dose of reality and a full knowledge of where I came from. So my real culture will not be lost.

Indians in Canada and the US offer cultural resistance because the English/Euro/Canadian/American conquerers have given Indians no real respect and Indians resent that. It is as if Indians don't exist, and to most of us, they don't. They're unexplained immigrants in the country.

It's just a legal problem. You're right, it is a lease and people can walk away from a lease. A legal problem that requires no genuine interest. The lawyers argue in court, but leave arm in arm for a beer afterwards as if nothing happened. The masses have contracted out to the govt to deal with aboriginals and they have done a pretty good job. Pushing around a stone age people wasn't and isn't too hard.

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Property Rights on Reserves

In these modern times, are we really still at the stage where aboriginal reserves need to be administered under a specialised subset of rules and regulations? It would make more sense, to me, to bring aboriginal reserves in line with the rest of the country; that is, the borders of the reserves themselves would serve no material purpose other than as a ceremonial reminder of Canada’s history.

The only continued regulation, in my view, should be that the counsel (or whatever form of government is adopted at any particular reserve at any given time) be required to be composed of at least one-half members of the original nation that had held the potentially-ceremonial reserve, unless such a counsel later votes down that requirement through some sort of lawful process.

There could also be a one-time payment of the potential tax savings of living on a reserve to any aboriginal Canadians currently living on a reserve meeting eligibility requirements, and tax exemptions would from there on out be repealed. This set-up would ensure, through majority representation on counsel, that the reserve could continue to uphold its culture, heritage, and encourage activities and projects for the enhancement thereof; but it would also ensure that reserves are administered in the same way as the rest of the province (or territory), with federal and provincial services being revved up to the same levels enjoyed by the rest of the populace.

My two cents on this issue (once again).

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

In these modern times, are we really still at the stage where aboriginal reserves need to be administered under a specialised subset of rules and regulations? It would make more sense, to me, to bring aboriginal reserves in line with the rest of the country; that is, the borders of the reserves themselves would serve no material purpose other than as a ceremonial reminder of Canada’s history.

The only continued regulation, in my view, should be that the counsel (or whatever form of government is adopted at any particular reserve at any given time) be required to be composed of at least one-half members of the original nation that had held the potentially-ceremonial reserve, unless such a counsel later votes down that requirement through some sort of lawful process.

There could also be a one-time payment of the potential tax savings of living on a reserve to any aboriginal Canadians currently living on a reserve meeting eligibility requirements, and tax exemptions would from there on out be repealed. This set-up would ensure, through majority representation on counsel, that the reserve could continue to uphold its culture, heritage, and encourage activities and projects for the enhancement thereof; but it would also ensure that reserves are administered in the same way as the rest of the province (or territory), with federal and provincial services being revved up to the same levels enjoyed by the rest of the populace.

My two cents on this issue (once again).

Having reserves as another kind of municipality would not be that unusual, as we have different kinds of corporations, such as not for profit ones. But the current regulation and management of reserves is very inconsistent and to date it is a matter of not forcing bands to do any action they don't want to do. So change is not coming any time soon, even if it is sorely needed.

But borders of reserves are not always clear, as there are claims for "traditional lands" that can extend quite far. BC is claimed several times over by many bands. Many bands, or likely most, don't want things to be too definite as they always want freedom of action. After all, they feel they are separate nations and can choose what is good for themselves.

To get the same services as the rest of the province they have to have some sort of productive economic activities going on. Most don't and won't anytime soon. However they are still entitled to those services and receive them anyway as much as possible.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

It'll be the end of the Reserve system. Once the rights of property are instituted they will ultimately trump the rights of the community, the tribe, to control their use and their resale.

Most likely. Communal rights and private property rights don't mix well. Although there are other coutnries with traditional peoples, like China, Russia, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Ghans etc . China has millions of peasants and they have traditional rights, which the govt sometimes respects and sometimes tramples on. Lately they trample on them for industrialization purposes.

Communal property rights hinder economic development, but economic development is supposed to benefit the masses too, not just a rich elite. Communal rights are a kind of socialism because it focuses on the group first, the individual second. We have a socialist parties in Canada, but are they communal?