Vatican/Holy See, State, or not?

[dumpthemonarchy]

Then, by all means get your ticket to Italy and tell them to take action against the Vatican. Don'tcha, though. roflmao

Did the gov't actually do it? If they did do that, did people not take their own to school? lol
Like I said, I have fantasies, too. It's nothing to be ashamed of, DTM

I guess those fantasies are so funny, those strange men with absolute power and people with no brains keep giving them money so they can keep their rotten empire.

Many Italians simply see the pope as another secular prince and want his power curtailed because it has no accountability. Just keep lol, it's all absurd.

 

[CDNBear]

The general public is not the only ones that are fed up. You, and everyone else need to remember that the vast majority of the kids that were abused were Catholic, and Catholics are getting fed up with the appearance of nothing being done. With Priests being shuffled around under the apparent guise of "out of sight, out of mind".

Then where are the protests, where are the parades of Catholics petitioning the Feds to do something?

As has been pointed out, the accusations against Pope Benedict stem from before he was Pope.

I fully understand that, but that does not negate his culpability.

Voicing an opinion is far different than what Hitchens is proposing.

I couldn't agree more.

You responded below.

Completely different context. I support freedom, that includes your freedom, Karie's freedom and that of the Church to conduct business under the tenets of your Faith. To defend that right, I would fight.

If the Pope is arrested, that is not an attack on your Faith in my eyes, it's an attack on an alleged criminal. If all Catholics truly have had enough with the abuse, obfuscation and shuffling, then they would support the act.

It appears that you and many others do not understand the position that the Pope/Holy See occupies in the RCC.

As a Baptized Catholic having spent years in the Churches clutches. I am well aware of what the symbolizes. I don't care. What he has allegedly done, out weighs the Faith.

In my perfect world, Pope Benedict as the infallible Holy See, needs to make one of those infallible decisions. That decision would be to step down as Pope and face his accusers as an ordinary man. Since the Pope is considered infallible, he can NOT admit to "making a mistake". Ordinary people, Priests, Bishops, and even Cardinals can make mistakes. The Pope can not. You may not agree with it, but that is a fact of the RCC. Given that, can you now understand why arresting the Holy Father would not be such a good idea, and in fact, may be detrimental to what you want achieved?

I understand the Faith Gh, I don't care. I just realized something. As you hold the baic tenets of you Faith and the Popes position, that is how I view the Military. lol, sorry, I'm not trying to make light. Just offering an observation.

As for things happening quickly. I would love to see that happen, but I am realist enough to realize that an organization that administers and ministers to over 1 billion people world wide is not going to move quick as a mouse.

I agree, but they should move quicker. The water only boils so long.

 

[gerryh]

well then, rather than trying to explain, I will just take the same attitude.

I know what you are saying, I just don't care. This is the way it is, screw you and what you think it should be.

 

[CDNBear]

well then, rather than trying to explain, I will just take the same attitude.

I know what you are saying, I just don't care. This is the way it is, screw you and what you think it should be.

Fair enough.

 

[AnnaG]

I guess those fantasies are so funny, those strange men with absolute power and people with no brains keep giving them money so they can keep their rotten empire.

Many Italians simply see the pope as another secular prince and want his power curtailed because it has no accountability. Just keep lol, it's all absurd.

Sometimes it is, yes. Sometimes people come up with the weirdest and funniest and least feasible solutions, too. Like yours, for instance.

 

[gerryh]

Pope promises 'church action' on sex abuse -

Pope promises 'church action' on sex abuse | World | News | Edmonton Sun

something is being done

 

[Liberalman]

Sure they will because they want to.

Just keep your mouth open stick out your tongue and recive the blessing.

 

[CDNBear]

Pope promises 'church action' on sex abuse -

Pope promises 'church action' on sex abuse | World | News | Edmonton Sun

something is being done

I see talk, no action, I see huge holes in the US norm too.

 

[gerryh]

I have the feeling the only thing that would truly make you happy is to see a gallows setup in St. Peters square with His Holiness at the front of the line to be hung with the rest of the pedophile priests.

 

[CDNBear]

I have the feeling the only thing that would truly make you happy is to see a gallows setup in St. Peters square with His Holiness at the front of the line to be hung with the rest of the pedophile priests.

I think you're, no... I know you're wrong, and I will give you leave to reread all my posts and get back to me.

 

[karrie]

I see talk, no action, I see huge holes in the US norm too.

True, but action without thought would be moronic. Wouldn't you find it infuriating if the Pope could whip and answer out in five minutes as if he'd had it in his pocket the whole time?

 

[CDNBear]

True, but action without thought would be moronic.

Agreed. But handing over the files forthwith, would be a show of good faith.

Wouldn't you find it infuriating if the Pope could whip an answer out in five minutes as if he'd had it in his pocket the whole time?

Not really infuriating, I would think it to be disingenuous, more then anything else.

And I'm not looking for answers yet, that's up to the courts. I want to see action. This didn't just start last week. This is years in the making. For all those years, there has been foot dragging, shuffling, hiding and obfuscation.

I'll cite the new cause celeb, the highly touted US model. Where the Diocese forms a panel of Lay people to over see a an internal investigation into claims against a Priest.

You'll have to excuse me if don't think the fox should be the guard of the hen house.

 

[karrie]

Agreed. But handing over the files forthwith, would be a show of good faith.

Not really infuriating, I would think it to be disingenuous, more then anything else.

And I'm not looking for answers yet, that's up to the courts. I want to see action. This didn't just start last week. This is years in the making. For all those years, there has been foot dragging, shuffling, hiding and obfuscation.

I'll site the new cause celeb, the highly touted US model. Where the Diocese forms a panel of Lay people to over see a an internal investigation into claims against a Priest.

You'll have to excuse me if don't think the fox should be the guard of the hen house.

I think the US model is working quite well yes.

But as for the rest... which files to which court? I don't want to sound dense, but, there is a lot of 'unravelling a rat's nest' to do here. There is no single court case going on. There is a variety of cases, with a variety of victims who may not want their names in the papers. So, what's the Pope supposed to say precisely to prove action? There will be 100's of individual things to deal with, and not all will be able to be dealt with in the same way. Action won't be instant, as much as I'd like to see an instantaneous fix.

 

[CDNBear]

I think the US model is working quite well yes.

No. I think it is open to manipulation. I would bet that it has been manipulated and when they have exposed Priests, it has been a matter of placating public opinion, then genuine desire to expose the perpetrators.

But as for the rest... which files to which court?

Whatever information the Holy See or the Vatican possesses. To the perspective authorties in whichever nations the crimes were committed, posthaste.

I don't want to sound dense, but, there is a lot of 'unravelling a rat's nest' to do here. There is no single court case going on. There is a variety of cases, with a variety of victims who may not want their names in the papers. So, what's the Pope supposed to say precisely to prove action?

"Here you go", as he hands over the volumes of information the Vatican and the Holy See possess on the matter.

There will be 100's of individual things to deal with, and not all will be able to be dealt with in the same way. Action won't be instant, as much as I'd like to see an instantaneous fix.

True, but allowing the overseer and oft protectorate shield of the criminals, to dictate how and when they will take action is ludicrous.

I can't think of any other institution that would be afforded that privilege.

 

[gerryh]

Agreed. But handing over the files forthwith, would be a show of good faith. Not really infuriating, I would think it to be disingenuous, more then anything else.

And I'm not looking for answers yet, that's up to the courts. I want to see action. This didn't just start last week. This is years in the making. For all those years, there has been foot dragging, shuffling, hiding and obfuscation.

I'll cite the new cause celeb, the highly touted US model. Where the Diocese forms a panel of Lay people to over see a an internal investigation into claims against a Priest.

You'll have to excuse me if don't think the fox should be the guard of the hen house.

Do you KNOW what "Lay people" means?

 

[CDNBear]

Do you KNOW what "Lay people" means?

:roll: Yes.

 

[karrie]

No. I think it is open to manipulation. I would bet that it has been manipulated and when they have exposed Priests, it has been a matter of placating public opinion, then genuine desire to expose the perpetrators.

Really, I can't think of better people to have investigating and holding council on the matter. They are the ones whose children are growing up in this church. They are the ones who are paying the wages, so to speak. They are the ones being told how to live by these men. They deserve the chance to decide how things are going to be. Not outsiders. Not some talking head. The leity deserve a voice in their own church Bear.

 

[AnnaG]

Pope promises 'church action' on sex abuse -

Pope promises 'church action' on sex abuse | World | News | Edmonton Sun

something is being done

It had to happen eventually. In spite of the secrecy edict of the RCC, it's a subject that would eventually be aired in public.

Catholic edict secrecy - Google Search

Corporate bigwigs, politicians, police, etc. all try to protect their own, why should priests be any different?

 

[gerryh]

Really, I can't think of better people to have investigating and holding council on the matter. They are the ones whose children are growing up in this church. They are the ones who are paying the wages, so to speak. They are the ones being told how to live by these men. They deserve the chance to decide how things are going to be. Not outsiders. Not some talking head. The leity deserve a voice in their own church Bear.

Obviously not Karrie. The people whose children are directly effected by this scandal should have no say in how it is handled. It should be complete outsiders, non believers, ones with an agenda against the Church perhaps?

It's all crap, no matter what His Holiness does, it will not be good enough for those that have an axe to grind with the RCC.

 

[AnnaG]

And people in general (Catholic and non-Catholic) have no legitimate axe to grind with the RCC?