Our Egypt/Jordan vacation

[SirJosephPorter]

Interesting stuff, the haggling you mention is not unlike the system I encountered in Tijuana 41 years ago. Down there about 1/4 of the original asking price was plenty.

Well, maybe. But do they haggle at a distance of five storeys? That is what makes this unique; at least I haven’t come across this kind of haggling before.

The peddler must have a strong throwing arm. A dress or a scarf doesn’t weigh much and it is very difficult to throw over long distances (even if you bunch it up and put it in a plastic pouch).

For the tourist, no problem, he has to throw it down five storeys. Then you have to yell to be heard over such long distances. Anyway, it was quite an experience.

 

[Mowich]

What does it feel like to stand beside the big stones?

Good question, DB.

 

[JLM]

Well, maybe. But do they haggle at a distance of five storeys? That is what makes this unique; at least I haven’t come across this kind of haggling before.

The peddler must have a strong throwing arm. A dress or a scarf doesn’t weigh much and it is very difficult to throw over long distances (even if you bunch it up and put it in a plastic pouch).

For the tourist, no problem, he has to throw it down five storeys. Then you have to yell to be heard over such long distances. Anyway, it was quite an experience.

No, that part is certainly unique. I was thinking more of the agony and contortions put on at the mere suggesting they are charging too much and how after they've turned down your "final offer" they will come running after you. :lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

What does it feel like to stand beside the big stones?

That is a fair question. It does give you a feeling of awe. Especially standing next to the Great Pyramid of Giza (which was the tallest structure in the world until the Eiffel Tower was built); one can almost feel that the ancient Pharaohs (with their Gods and their queens) are trying to communicate with you,.

One also has to wonder at the tenacity, determination and persistence of the ancient Pharaohs in building such structures. Some of the pyramids took decades to build; the construction had to take place over a couple of generation (and at least a couple of Pharaohs).

It indeed shows us what human beings were capable of even in ancient days (with practically unlimited supply of slave labour).

 

[VanIsle]

Hey Sir Joe, welcome home. Nice to see you back on line. I was wondering where you were but then I remembered you said you were going on holidays/business trip. I'm glad you and your wife had a fun time.

 

[talloola]

That is a fair question. It does give you a feeling of awe. Especially standing next to the Great Pyramid of Giza (which was the tallest structure in the world until the Eiffel Tower was built); one can almost feel that the ancient Pharaohs (with their Gods and their queens) are trying to communicate with you,.

One also has to wonder at the tenacity, determination and persistence of the ancient Pharaohs in building such structures. Some of the pyramids took decades to build; the construction had to take place over a couple of generation (and at least a couple of Pharaohs).

It indeed shows us what human beings were capable of even in ancient days (with practically unlimited supply of slave labour).

yeah, I can imagine how many thousands of miserable slaves
worked themselves to death building those pyramids, I guess
as they dropped dead, they just shovelled them into a hole,
and dragged a new one in to take his place. Working conditions wouldn't have been too pleasant, I'm sure, it
sickens me to think about it, poor people, indeed.

 

[JLM]

yeah, I can imagine how many thousands of miserable slaves
worked themselves to death building those pyramids, I guess
as they dropped dead, they just shovelled them into a hole,
and dragged a new one in to take his place. Working conditions wouldn't have been too pleasant, I'm sure, it
sickens me to think about it, poor people, indeed.

Yep, I think in those days Unions may have had their place and probably would have received a little respect.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

yeah, I can imagine how many thousands of miserable slaves
worked themselves to death building those pyramids, I guess
as they dropped dead, they just shovelled them into a hole,
and dragged a new one in to take his place. Working conditions wouldn't have been too pleasant, I'm sure, it
sickens me to think about it, poor people, indeed.

Quite right, talloola. Today we stand in awe in front of these monuments and admire the skill, dexterity and the vision of our ancestors (and in a way, the Pharaohs and others are the ancestors of all of us, of humankind).

However, the story behind these achievements is one of exploitation, slavery and misery in general. Indeed, our tour guide told us that the reason the Old Kingdom (that was when they built the giant pyramids) was ruined was that they ran out of resources building the pyramids. There was several centuries of chaos in Egypt before the Middle kingdom took shape.

I remember when we visited India, we stood in awe in front of the Taj Mahal, it is truly a majestic sight. However, legend has it that the Muslim emperor, Shah Jahan cut off the arms of the architect as soon as he was finished building the Taj Mahal (so that he may not build anything comparable anywhere else in the world).

It is just as well not to judge our ancestors by today’s standards, most of them would be found sorely lacking. What they did is in the past, long past. Now all we can do is admire the sights and their achievements.

 

[darkbeaver]

yeah, I can imagine how many thousands of miserable slaves
worked themselves to death building those pyramids, I guess
as they dropped dead, they just shovelled them into a hole,
and dragged a new one in to take his place. Working conditions wouldn't have been too pleasant, I'm sure, it
sickens me to think about it, poor people, indeed.

A/No mass graves have ever been found b/ very unlikely that the available arible land could have supported a couple of hundred thousand working slaves B/ no one to date has any workable ideas about how the slaves would have built Cheops in the first place, no clear method c/ there is very good evidence that the builders were professional construction people who lived and worked with their families in the suburbs surrounding Ghiza d/ the logic of slaves instead of paid professionals is purely a european invention

 

[darkbeaver]

That is a fair question. It does give you a feeling of awe. Especially standing next to the Great Pyramid of Giza (which was the tallest structure in the world until the Eiffel Tower was built); one can almost feel that the ancient Pharaohs (with their Gods and their queens) are trying to communicate with you,.

One also has to wonder at the tenacity, determination and persistence of the ancient Pharaohs in building such structures. Some of the pyramids took decades to build; the construction had to take place over a couple of generation (and at least a couple of Pharaohs).

It indeed shows us what human beings were capable of even in ancient days (with practically unlimited supply of slave labour).

You stood beside a masterpiece of engineering. I am envious.

 

[JLM]

A/No mass graves have ever been found b/ very unlikely that the available arible land could have supported a couple of hundred thousand working slaves B/ no one to date has any workable ideas about how the slaves would have built Cheops in the first place, no clear method c/ there is very good evidence that the builders were professional construction people who lived and worked with their families in the suburbs surrounding Ghiza d/ the logic of slaves instead of paid professionals is purely a european invention

I think they were brought in from the Lost Continent of Atlantis before it was lost. It was only a "stones throw" away relatively speaking.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

A/No mass graves have ever been found b/ very unlikely that the available arible land could have supported a couple of hundred thousand working slaves B/ no one to date has any workable ideas about how the slaves would have built Cheops in the first place, no clear method c/ there is very good evidence that the builders were professional construction people who lived and worked with their families in the suburbs surrounding Ghiza d/ the logic of slaves instead of paid professionals is purely a european invention

I don’t think there are any mass graves to be found, darkbeaver. We are not talking of Hitler here, there were no mass killings. I assume what would happen is that a slave would die here or there, he would be discretely buried (or even left for the dogs and the pigs to feast upon) and construction would proceed as before.

I seriously doubt that thousands of slaves died at a time, so that mass graves would be found.

Anyway, our guide told us that it was usually a mixture of slave labour and paid labour. Some were slaves, some were paid workers, who were paid wages by the Pharaohs.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Another way Egypt surprised me is about freedom of expression. Egypt is a dictatorship of course. Mubarak has been in power forever, it seems. However, our tour guide had very low opinion of Mubarak, he used to criticize Mubarak quite freely. I remember when I remarked to him that Ramses 2 was another Saddam Hussein (a megalomaniac), his response was that Ramses 2 was worse, he was another Mubarak.

I was surprised that he could criticize the leader freely and get away with it. You just don’t do that in a dictatorship. I can understand him criticizing Mubarak in one to one conversation, particularly if he is talking to a foreigner. But to criticize him openly, in public place (when he is telling information to the tourists), when anybody can hear him (and presumably report him) was something totally unexpected.

The only conclusion I can come up with is that in Egypt, there is no penalty for criticizing the dictator. A rather remarkable dictatorship.

 

[YukonJack]

It does not have to be a spectacular site like the Great Pyramids to find mass graves nearby. Look for mass graves close to anything built in Siberia. Or Ukraine.

 

[darkbeaver]

I think they were brought in from the Lost Continent of Atlantis before it was lost. It was only a "stones throw" away relatively speaking.

Professionals from Atlantis, sure why not. They were probably good with dams roads and harbours and defenses as well.

 

[darkbeaver]

It does not have to be a spectacular site like the Great Pyramids to find mass graves nearby. Look for mass graves close to anything built in Siberia. Or Ukraine.

That is for sure Jack. Mines and lumber camps, the Gulags. And twenty thirty millions nobody knows the dead.

 

[YukonJack]

No mass graves, but millions of people uprooted from their homes that were flooded in China.

 

[JLM]

Professionals from Atlantis, sure why not. They were probably good with dams roads and harbours and defenses as well.

Yep, but while they were doing all these things, they should have thought ahead and anchored it to a sky hook......................:lol::lol::lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The remarkable aspect of the Great Pyramid of Giza (Keops) is that the stones are not bound together by anything. These are just huge boulders which are stacked on top of each other. The pyramid stays together simply due to its weight.

They had to work out the angle of the pyramid of course. Too small an angle and the pyramid becomes unstable. Too large an angle and the pyramid becomes too big and takes too long to build.

That is where the skill and the knowledge came in. But as to actual building of pyramid, it mainly involved stacking up huge big rocks (2 tons or heavier) on top of each other. I expect even that must have required plenty of ingenuity, resourcefulness and effort.

 

[JLM]

The remarkable aspect of the Great Pyramid of Giza (Keops) is that the stones are not bound together by anything. These are just huge boulders which are stacked on top of each other. The pyramid stays together simply due to its weight.

They had to work out the angle of the pyramid of course. Too small an angle and the pyramid becomes unstable. Too large an angle and the pyramid becomes too big and takes too long to build.

That is where the skill and the knowledge came in. But as to actual building of pyramid, it mainly involved stacking up huge big rocks (2 tons or heavier) on top of each other. I expect even that must have required plenty of ingenuity, resourcefulness and effort.

Just a few questions about the construction of the Great Pyramids.
Has a date of their construction ever been established?
Has there even been any documentations likely diaries or journals found?
Does the type of rock used fit in with existing rock formation in the surrounding area?
Are there any holes in existance from which these rocks could have been excavated?
As these rocks were obvioiusly cut to size, has it been determned what type of tool was used and have any old discarded tools been found?