Life on death row, kind of a cake walk.

[countryboy]

I don’t see that happening even if Harper gets a majority, countryboy. As I have said before, he is only pretending to govern from center right; he may actually belong to the far right.

So it is not inconceivable that he will try to bring it back. In that, he will fail miserably. First, not all Conservative MPs support death penalty. My guess would be that significant number of MPs from Ontario and perhaps all the MPS from Québec will be opposed to it.

Seeing that almost all the opposition MPs will be opposed to it, chance are very good that the legislation will get nowhere. When Mulroney tried to bring back death penalty with a Conservative majority, he failed miserably.

However, even if by dint of threats, bullying and intimidation Harper can get it through the Parliament, the Supreme Court will quash it in an instance. Death penalty is not in keeping with what the developed countries in the world do, it probably violates the Charter, and I don’t see Supreme Court agreeing to setting the clock on human rights back by 50 years, just to make Harper happy.

Plus, if he digs up the settled issue of death penalty, that is tantamount to committing political suicide and next election Conservatives will be lucky if they don’t end up in the third place, behind NDP.

I am sure Harper realizes all this, he is not stupid. So no matter how much he may want to bring back the death penalty, I seriously doubt that he will try to.

But in a way you are right. If religious right and some extremist right wingers have their way, Harper will ban abortion, bring back generous use of death penalty, ban homosexuality, restrict availability of contraception, mandate teaching of Book of Genesis in schools etc. Does that sound like Utopia to you?

I seriously doubt if Harper will try any of these, if he knows what is good for him (and he does).

Sorry, I didn't mean to set you off on a political rant there. I said, ""..."you never know." I have no idea what banning abortion or restricting availability of contraception has to do with the death penalty.

Don't get me wrong...I like a good rant, but I do prefer them to remain within the context of the thread. I'm not that good a reader so it's hard for me to keep up with multiple subjects all at the same time.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"The point here is not whether Peterson is guilty or innocent, JLM. The point is that death penalty is wrong."- That is a bit different from what you said in the past when you said, the reason was the risk of executing an innocent person.

Death penalty is wrong on several counts, JLM. One is of course the possibility of executing an innocent person. Another is that it is too expensive.

It is not a coincidence that in the developed world, USA is the only country to have death penalty (except Japan), and it also has the highest murder rate in the developed world. So there is no evidence that it acts as a deterrent.

But at the end of the day, it is wrong because it is murder; it is a human rights issue. It cheapens the life. So even if the other points are addressed, I still don’t see myself supporting the death penalty (though others might).

 

[JLM]

Of course it is a nonsense idea, Mowich. That is why I didn’t’ comment on it before. Ellesmere Island indeed. Why not put them in Niagara Falls or Stanley Park? That won’t be any more absurd than putting them on Ellesmere Island.

Your knowledge of geography is obviously lacking as well.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That is your opinion, and I disagree with you on that.

You are free to disagree. All the same, I don’t see it being reintroduced in Canada for a long time yet. As far as most Canadians are concerned, it is a dead, settled issue.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yes, but the second "murder" (i.e. death penalty) has a reason for it...it was caused by the first murder.

That doesn’t matter, counrtyboy. One murder does not justify another murder. Besides, how do you know that the first murder didn’t have a reason for it, that it wasn’t justified?

But if you're commenting on my "idea", I did point out that it is - in addition to lessening the existing financial burden on society - a substitute for the death penalty. It really doesn't make sense to me to spend a lot of money on a person who murdered some innocent victim. Does that make sense to you?

No it doesn’t, I don’t think even a Conservative politician would make such an absurd suggestion. Courts will strike it down in an instance, as being against the Charter.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Your knowledge of geography is obviously lacking as well.

And just what is wrong with my knowledge of geography? My point was that if you are going to herd them into a scenic area, an area of natural beauty, then why not Niagara Falls or Stanley Park? That is not any more absurd than herding them off to the North.

 

[countryboy]

That doesn’t matter, counrtyboy. One murder does not justify another murder. Besides, how do you know that the first murder didn’t have a reason for it, that it wasn’t justified?



No it doesn’t, I don’t think even a Conservative politician would make such an absurd suggestion. Courts will strike it down in an instance, as being against the Charter.

1. Well, let's see...I guess I would assume that if a murder was "justified", it wouldn't be called a murder.

2. And here I thought the law makers (Parliament) made the laws in this country.

 

[countryboy]

That doesn’t matter, counrtyboy. One murder does not justify another murder. Besides, how do you know that the first murder didn’t have a reason for it, that it wasn’t justified?

Now SirJP, do you realize what you just wrote there? You've stated repeatedly that murder is "wrong" when referring to the death penalty, yet a murder (committed by a criminal, not a government) could be justified?

Are you serious? I mean, I've heard of getting one's priorities all tangled up in the heat of the moment, but I think what I'm hearing here is...well, just plain wrong!

 

[JLM]

And just what is wrong with my knowledge of geography? My point was that if you are going to herd them into a scenic area, an area of natural beauty, then why not Niagara Falls or Stanley Park? That is not any more absurd than herding them off to the North.

Yep, your knowledge of geography is definitely a little shy. Ellesmere Island has two or three subtle differences from the other two, the biggest vegetation there is likely a lichen, the winters are long and frosty, emergency services may take a few minutes to arrive after calling 911 (I'm not sure cell phone service) - oops these guys don't get cell phones. Personally I think Stanley Park is a little less formidable.

 

[countryboy]

And just what is wrong with my knowledge of geography? My point was that if you are going to herd them into a scenic area, an area of natural beauty, then why not Niagara Falls or Stanley Park? That is not any more absurd than herding them off to the North.

Please see my post #44, second paragraph. I think the point on geography pointed to the fact that there is more, somewhat "inhospitable" space in the north. I've only been to Niagara Falls maybe 45 times, but I seem to recall there wouldn't be enough available space for the "criminal compound" there. Ditto for Stanley Park. Besides, what kind of punishment would that be? I know lots of non-murderers who work hard and pay their taxes, and they can't afford a trip to either of those places.

I was hoping we could have a "nice" discussion here, full of meaning and thoughtfulness, but your use of words like "absurd" is starting to make me think you're not very respectful of my (and JLM's) opinions or of our feelings. Am I wrong? (I hope so)...

 

[JLM]

That doesn’t matter, counrtyboy. One murder does not justify another murder. Besides, how do you know that the first murder didn’t have a reason for it, that it wasn’t justified?

Now SirJP, do you realize what you just wrote there? You've stated repeatedly that murder is "wrong" when referring to the death penalty, yet a murder (committed by a criminal, not a government) could be justified?

Are you serious? I mean, I've heard of getting one's priorities all tangled up in the heat of the moment, but I think what I'm hearing here is...well, just plain wrong!

Sometimes a person's credibility is enhanced if he just says "I'm sorry I'm wrong I misspoke, it's a subject I don't know anything about".

 

[Mowich]

I am a Conservative and though I know of a few criminals who deserve to be lynched, I don't see capital punishment coming up on the governments radar. I would not vote for it simply because I have seen too many innocent people freed from a life time in prison, who but for the grace of our justice system, might otherwise be dead.

 

[JLM]

I am a Conservative and though I know of a few criminals who deserve to be lynched, I don't see capital punishment coming up on the governments radar. I would not vote for it simply because I have seen too many innocent people freed from a life time in prison, who but for the grace of our justice system, might otherwise be dead.

I see where you are coming from but doing the wrong thing isn't a substitute for fixing the system. These guys have been known to escape or be mistakenly released from prison only to kill another innocent victim, which I think would more than offset any wrongful conviction. Also I don't generally advocate the death penalty for a single murder, only to those who if by chance they were "innocent" they've done enough other bad stuff anyway to warrant it.

 

[Mowich]

I see where you are coming from but doing the wrong thing isn't a substitute for fixing the system. These guys have been known to escape or be mistakenly released from prison only to kill another innocent victim, which I think would more than offset any wrongful conviction. Also I don't generally advocate the death penalty for a single murder, only to those who if by chance they were "innocent" they've done enough other bad stuff anyway to warrant it.

Then I stand by the ice berg and having their nuts removed with piano wire - slowly. :smile:

 

[countryboy]

I am a Conservative and though I know of a few criminals who deserve to be lynched, I don't see capital punishment coming up on the governments radar. I would not vote for it simply because I have seen too many innocent people freed from a life time in prison, who but for the grace of our justice system, might otherwise be dead.

Oh yeah, taking a life is not an decision to be taken lightly. Not at all. I have mixed feelings about the death penalty (but I think there is a place for it - it does work in Japan, in my opinion), but I'm not at all hesitant to say that our system has swung so far "the other way" that it has become a bizarre situation...the bad guys are getting treated in very inappropriate ways for the crimes (like murder) that they have deliberately committed. That is a sign of some kind of sickness in our society...makes no sense to me at all.

Hence the idea for coming up with another form of punishment that would give them a good, solid kick in the *ss but more importantly, keep them off the streets so they cannot do it again. I thought the north might be a good place to consider, as there aren't that many streets up there!

 

[countryboy]

Then I stand by the ice berg and having their nuts removed with piano wire - slowly. :smile:

I just unconsciously crossed my legs. Which means that would / should be a good deterrent!

 

[JLM]

Then I stand by the ice berg and having their nuts removed with piano wire - slowly. :smile:

Sounds excellent.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

1. Well, let's see...I guess I would assume that if a murder was "justified", it wouldn't be called a murder.

I define murder as preplanned, cold blooded killing of a human being. It does not matter if it is justified or not, it is wrong most of the time (I wouldn’t say it is always wrong, I don’t believe in moral absolutes).

To give you an example, suppose somebody murders Paul Bernardo in prison. Most people will agree that the murder would be justified, that Bernardo deserved it. But that doesn’t make it right, murder is wrong most of the time, whether justified or not.

But murder may be justified or unjustified.

2. And here I thought the law makers (Parliament) made the laws in this country.

Indeed Parliament makes the laws. And Parliament has outlawed death penalty in Canada, and a good thing too.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That doesn’t matter, counrtyboy. One murder does not justify another murder. Besides, how do you know that the first murder didn’t have a reason for it, that it wasn’t justified?

Now SirJP, do you realize what you just wrote there? You've stated repeatedly that murder is "wrong" when referring to the death penalty, yet a murder (committed by a criminal, not a government) could be justified?

Are you serious? I mean, I've heard of getting one's priorities all tangled up in the heat of the moment, but I think what I'm hearing here is...well, just plain wrong!

I think you are confusing the terms ‘justified or unjustified’ with ‘right or wrong’, the two are totally different concepts.

Justified means that a deed is done in response to provocation, and it may be a response commensurate with the provocation. That does not make it right.

Let me give you an example. Suppose somebody murders my wife. In my opinion, I would be justified in killing him. But it would be wrong; it is not a good idea to take the law in my hand, the right thing to do is to let the justice system deal with him.

So don’t confuse ‘justified’ with right or wrong. If something is justified, it may be the right thing to do in some instances, not in other instances.

Or take the Old Testament justice, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. There is justification for that. However, that is not the right thing to do.

As Tevye remarked in Fiddler on the Roof “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, that way the whole world will become blind and toothless.”

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yep, your knowledge of geography is definitely a little shy. Ellesmere Island has two or three subtle differences from the other two, the biggest vegetation there is likely a lichen, the winters are long and frosty, emergency services may take a few minutes to arrive after calling 911 (I'm not sure cell phone service) - oops these guys don't get cell phones. Personally I think Stanley Park is a little less formidable.

I have heard it is still a region of great natural beauty, JLM (I haven’t been there myself).

You remind me of the oil lobby (and Republicans, but the two are practically synonymous) which wanted to dig all over Alaska for oil. Their justification? That there is nothing in Alaska; it is all a patch of frozen wasteland, frozen tundra.