What's right about our health-care system

[AnnaG]

Holistic medicine - Witchcraft. Practitioners of holistic medicine are not regulated and have been the cause of many deaths because those who were desperately trying to get help believed in them to the point of abandoning conventional medicine. ("here are 4 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.")
Anne M. Adkins, Wichita Kansas
Coretta Scott King ,Rosarito, Mexico
Charles Levy Patagonia, Arizona
"Orange Man" NYC
These people all dies because holistic practitioners using unproven treatments.
[URL="http://whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html"]http://whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html[/URL]

Yep. How many deaths have been caused by lousy doctors practicing traditional medicine, or by bad drugs from pharmaceutical companies, or by lousy hospital conditions, or .......?

 

[AnnaG]

Allopathic medicine kills thousands every year with misdiagnosis and drug prescriptions and they are supposed to be highly regulated. For thousand s of years native medicine people tended to the people with natural remedies. I would think that we could set up a system similar to India's Ayurvedic medical system using native plants of Canada and regulate it in a similar manner.

The site claims to promote critical thinking but if they only give one side of the story, how can the reader have enough information to make a critical decision. It seems to be more of a shill for the status quo.

You bet. I think the big difference is lobbyists from the pharmaceutrical companies and others biasing gov'ts against other forms of medicical practises. It has nothing to do with the quality of those other forms' practises.

 

[AnnaG]

We live in a society of abundance, very few people starve, there are 'safety nets' for most people with legitimate problems, and our biggest problem is people who are bored, lazy, and fat.

It's horrendous. I'm starting to think that every adult who is on welfare or unemployment needs to be put to work by the gov't. There are a gazillion things that need doing - cleaning public facilities, picking up litter, etc etc, and yet we're paying people to do nothing but whine and complain about their lot in life.

A change in gov't thinking might help.
I am sure this friend of ours is not alone, but he's got health problems, is almost retirement age, collecting disability pension (that's pitifully small), and feels generally useless to society. He's offered the government he gets the pension from to do work for free as he's pretty good with computers. They ignore him and keep sending him those little checks every month. Bureaucrats and politicians need their asses kicked around the block several times.

 

[AnnaG]

True, I remember Bill Vanderzalm, many years, when premier of b.c., wanted
to put the welfare, and unemployed to work, doing just what you suggest, and
he got nothing but flack for suggesting that, but we, at that time, thought
it was about time some 'leader' implemented such a thing.

Damned good idea, IMO.

 

[AnnaG]

and do you remember what the outcome of that was? what he did at his nursery in Richmond to those that went there to "protest" his ideas? Check it out sometime. The outcome reinforced the idea that many on "welfare" didn't want to work, even when given the oportunity.

Many is not all. There are many of those on welfare and whatnot that would love to work if given the chance. What sort of life do you think they have if the single person with no kids gets $600 + change per month? You think they wouldn't want to get out and work if it meant more money?

 

[TenPenny]

I don't like the idea with some doctors around here who will only hear a maximum of two complaints at a time. I'm one of those people who have to make a list because if it's not on my mind at the moment, I won't even mention it. Sometimes those complaints are shortness of breath, chest pains, dizziness and arm pains.

Health Care is so great in Ontario.....

The reason that docs do that, is because they are only paid the equivalent of 10 mins of their time per visit. So if you have more than two issues, you'll be taking up too much time.

It's stunning that docs might want to make something like 25% of what a lawyer makes for his time.

 

[AnnaG]

I don't remember, refresh us. I see he's back in the spotlight, making big
moves to squelch that new tax that our 'drunken premier' is trying to push
onto us, after saying that he would not do such a thing.

Politicians are liars. That isn't news, Honey.
Our problem is that we have very little in the way of decent political alternatives.

 

[AnnaG]

I don't like the idea with some doctors around here who will only hear a maximum of two complaints at a time. I'm one of those people who have to make a list because if it's not on my mind at the moment, I won't even mention it. Sometimes those complaints are shortness of breath, chest pains, dizziness and arm pains.

Health Care is so great in Ontario.....

It's about the same in BC. I think the max a doc can spend with a patient is 20 minutes here before they start cutting into the pay that the gov't gives them. It's assembly line medicine and it doesn't work nor is it sustainable.

 

[AnnaG]

The reason that docs do that, is because they are only paid the equivalent of 10 mins of their time per visit. So if you have more than two issues, you'll be taking up too much time.

It's stunning that docs might want to make something like 25% of what a lawyer makes for his time.

Ok maybe it's 10 minutes, I guess. It isn't enough time for a physical let alone a chat about problems.

Salaries and Wages for General Practitioners and Family Physicians Jobs in Canada | Canadian General Practitioners and Family Physicians Salary Guide
Gross and net earnings rose in 2005 overhead as a percentage of their salary
Gross Net Overhead
Dermatologists $360,000 $240,000 33.0%
Internists $310,000 $200,000 35.5%
Ob/gyns $320,000 $195,000 40.4%
Pediatricians $250,000 $160,000 36.0%
Psychiatrists $190.000 $160.000 15.8%
GPs $260,000 $155,000 40.4%
260,000 x 29% (income tax) = 75000
75000 + 105000 = 180000
260000 - 180000 = 80000
deductions on IT = ?
average Canadian family physician works between 55 & 65 hours per week difference between rural doctors and city doctors = ?

The average patient to family physician ratio in Canada as of 2005 was 470 patients per doc. 39th in the following list of countries:

Patients per doctor:
Cuba 170
Belarus 220
Belgium 220
Greece 230
Russia 230
Georgia 240
Italy 240
Turkmenistan 240
Ukraine 240
Lithuania 250
Uruguay 270
Bulgaria 280
Iceland 280
Kazakhstan 280
Switzerland 280
Portugal 290
France 300
Germany 300
Hungary 300
South Korea 300
Spain 300
Denmark 310
Sweden 310
Finland 320
Netherlands 320
Norway 320
Argentina 330
Latvia 330
Ireland 360
Uzbekistan 360
Mongolia 380
United States 390
Australia 400
Kirgizstan 400
Poland 400
New Zealand 420
Great Britain 440
Qatar 450
Canada 470
Jordan 490
Tajikistan 490
Japan 500
Mexico 500
Venezuela 500
Romania 550
Ecuador 650
North Korea 650
Panama 700
Syria 700
Bosnia-H. 750
Colombia 750
Lybia 750
Oman 750
Saudi Arabia 750
Tunisia 750
Turkey 750
Bolivia 800
Peru 850
Algeria 900
Bahrain 900
Brazil 900
Chile 900
Paraguay 900
China 950
Guatemala 1.100
Jamaica 1.200
South Africa 1.300
Malaysia 1.400
Pakistan 1.400
Iraq 1.500
India 1.700
Laos 1.700
Honduras 1.800
Philippines 1.800
Sri Lanka 1.800
Egypt 1.900
Vietnam 1.900
Morocco 2.000
Iran 2.200
Suriname 2.200
Botswana 2.500
Nicaragua 2.700
Thailand 2.700
Myanmar 2.800
Yemen 3.000
Namibia 3.300
Madagascar 3.400
Bangladesh 3.800
Haiti 4.000
Sudan 4.500
Nepal 4.800
Afghanistan 5.300
Cameroon 5.300
Cambodia 6.300
Zimbabwe 6.300
Kenia 7.100
Indonesia 7.700
Zambia 8.300
D.R. Congo 9.100
Gambia 9.100
Mauritani 9.100
Angola 12.500
C.A.R. 12.500
Mali 12.500
Uganda 12.500
Senegal 16.500
Bhutan 20.000
Eritrea 20.000
Lesotho 20.000
Papua NG 20.000
Rwanda 20.000
Benin 25.000
Chad 25.000
Niger 25.000
Somalia 25.000
Burundi 33.500
Ethiopia 33.500
Liberia 33.500
Mozambique 33.500
Malawi 50.000
Tanzania 50.000

 

[TenPenny]

So the average GP, after paying office expenses, brings home $155,000. That's what you could call their salary.

That's pitiful - it's what a typical tradesman (say a millwright or industrial mechanc) brings home if they work a good amount of OT. It's far less than most of the top level civil servants.

 

[AnnaG]

So the average GP, after paying office expenses, brings home $155,000. That's what you could call their salary.

That's pitiful - it's what a typical tradesman (say a millwright or industrial mechanc) brings home if they work a good amount of OT. It's far less than most of the top level civil servants.

Not to mention what people get for providing us an hour or two of entertainment once in a while.

Found this just now:

Pay for performance: learning about quality -- Bell and Levinson 176 (12): 1717 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The reason that docs do that, is because they are only paid the equivalent of 10 mins of their time per visit. So if you have more than two issues, you'll be taking up too much time.

It's stunning that docs might want to make something like 25% of what a lawyer makes for his time.

Quite right, TenPenny. A doctor usually charges intermediate assessment for most patients (fee code A007), which has a fixed fee attached to it. It doesn’t matter how many complaint the doctor attends to. Whether he attends to one complaint or ten, he gets the same fee for A007, he cannot charge two A007s in a day if he attends to say five complaints, he can charge only one A007.

What this means is that if a doctor attends to more than one or two complaints in the same visit, he is working for free. All the Family Physicians have the policy of seeing only one or two complaints per visit; I don’t think there are any exceptions (At least not in Ontario).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

GPs $260,000 $155,000 40.4%
260,000 x 29% (income tax) = 75000
75000 + 105000 = 180000
260000 - 180000 = 80000

Anna, your calculations are flawed here. You calculated 29% tax on gross earnings, which is not correct. Gross earnings are not taxed, the net earnings (after deducting expenses) are. So the income tax would be

155,000 X 29% = 44950
44950 + 105000 = 149950, call it 150000
2600000 – 150000 = 110000

That is what the average GP would net, after expenses and taxes, not 80,000 as you calculated.

 

[AnnaG]

Hey, I can parrot what's been said twice before, too.
Family physicians are limited on what they get per patient per visit.

 

[AnnaG]

GPs $260,000 $155,000 40.4%
260,000 x 29% (income tax) = 75000
75000 + 105000 = 180000
260000 - 180000 = 80000

Anna, your calculations are flawed here. You calculated 29% tax on gross earnings, which is not correct. Gross earnings are not taxed, the net earnings (after deducting expenses) are. So the income tax would be

155,000 X 29% = 44950
44950 + 105000 = 149950, call it 150000
2600000 – 150000 = 110000

That is what the average GP would net, after expenses and taxes, not 80,000 as you calculated.

Prove it.

 

[talloola]

Politicians are liars. That isn't news, Honey.
Our problem is that we have very little in the way of decent political alternatives.

There is a big difference between our provincial liberals and ndp, big alternative.

 

[AnnaG]

There is a big difference between our provincial liberals and ndp, big alternative.

Big difference, not much of a decent alternative. I meant what we have is the lesser of two evils. But the longer we have Campbull in, the smaller the difference becomes. He and his cronies aren't exactly what I would call primo material. I can't stand the NDP either. But we are stuck with the two, so we are the losers.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Ok maybe it's 10 minutes, I guess. It isn't enough time for a physical let alone a chat about problems.

Salaries and Wages for General Practitioners and Family Physicians Jobs in Canada | Canadian General Practitioners and Family Physicians Salary Guide
Gross and net earnings rose in 2005 overhead as a percentage of their salary
Gross Net Overhead

GPs $260,000 $155,000 40.4%
260,000 x 29% (income tax) = 75000
75000 + 105000 = 180000
260000 - 180000 = 80000
deductions on IT = ?
average Canadian family physician works between 55 & 65 hours per week difference between rural doctors and city doctors = ?

Anna, that is old news, things have changed at least here in Ontario. Most doctors are part of a physician group. Even if they have solo practices (like my wife does), they are loosely connected with other doctors to forma a group or a network.

The patients are rostered these days in Ontario, which means that they are officially attached to one Family Physician. The patient can still change the doctor, but that involves some paper work on the part of the doctor and the patient.

Anyway, when a patient is rostered, government automatically pays 15% over and above what is billed. So assuming that 260,000 $ are billed in the office setting, government will automatically pay 39000$ more to the doctor.

Plus there is the rostering fee. A physician who averages 260000 billing probably has around 1500 patients on his/her roster and that adds another 30000 to the doctor’s income.

There is also the preventive care bonus, which OHIP started three years ago. OHIP pays doctor a bonus for giving flu shots, ordering colorectal examination, baby immunizations, Pap smear, mammogram etc. My wife usually gets around 10,000 $ every year in preventive care bonus, which I think would be typical.

Add all these things to the doctor’s income and a billing of 260,000 becomes 340,000. And that is average billing. If a doctor is willing to work hard (and some of them do), he may have 2000 patients on his roster and may earn more.

As I said before, while doctors here do not earn the mega bucks they do in USA, they do all right.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Prove it.

Prove what, Anna? That a doctor is taxed on his net earnings, not his gross earnings? If you need that to be proved to you, you need a very basic, elementary course in income tax. Refer to any brochure about taxes and you will see that it is the net earnings that are taxed, not gross earnings. And not only for a doctor, but for any business.

 

[AnnaG]

Ok maybe it's 10 minutes, I guess. It isn't enough time for a physical let alone a chat about problems.

Salaries and Wages for General Practitioners and Family Physicians Jobs in Canada | Canadian General Practitioners and Family Physicians Salary Guide
Gross and net earnings rose in 2005 overhead as a percentage of their salary
Gross Net Overhead

GPs $260,000 $155,000 40.4%
260,000 x 29% (income tax) = 75000
75000 + 105000 = 180000
260000 - 180000 = 80000
deductions on IT = ?
average Canadian family physician works between 55 & 65 hours per week difference between rural doctors and city doctors = ?

Anna, that is old news, things have changed at least here in Ontario. Most doctors are part of a physician group.

blah blah blah Whatever.
They then shouldn't leave for better places to earn what they think they are worth, should they? But they do leave Canada.
In Canada we are supposed to have equanimity in healthcare, but apparently equanimity doesn't extend everywhere for patients or their doctors. Some system.