Democratically Elected President Is Ousted By Fascists In Honduras

[gopher]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/world/americas/29honduras.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all


{reg required}


''President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras was ousted by the army on Sunday, capping months of tensions over his efforts to lift presidential term limits.

In the first military coup in Central America since the end of the cold war, soldiers stormed the presidential palace in the capital, Tegucigalpa, early in the morning, disarming the presidential guard, waking Mr. Zelaya and putting him on a plane to Costa Rica.
Mr. Zelaya, a leftist aligned with President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela, angrily denounced the coup as illegal. “I am the president of Honduras,” he insisted at the airport in San José, Costa Rica, still wearing his pajamas.''


... more at site ...



We have had innumerable posts about the allegdly stolen election in Iran while everyone ignored the election that was stolen in Zimbabwe. Today, the fascists stole an entire government in Honduras and not one person bothered to discuss it on this forum. As has been discussed here, while right wingers are a minority in the USA and in Canada and one would think that they would not be taking the initiative in discussing or focussing on issues. Yet, as we can see from Canadian Content, it is the right wingers on this forum who invariably frame the issues. This was true in the USA for many years but it is no longer so (thankfully).

Let us see if there is or can be a change.

Therefore, let us have an intelligent discussion as to how or why the fascists were able to stage a coup when the government was democratically elected. Discuss also why the Republicans who had been ever so adament about promoting democracy, have all of a sudden clammed up.

 

[Trex]

Well if he had abided by the laws and traditions of his own country it never would have happened.

Its the same sad old story playing out all over again.
A legally,democratically elected leader decides he should become Dear Leader for life.
Who needs democracy and rule of law when you decide to institute a "workers paradise" ruled over in perpetuity by a socialist cadre that always knows what's best for the workers.
Just look at what's happening in Venezuela.

True it never had a chance to happen but dollars to doughnuts that's what the army smelled.

A right wing army staff chafing under an elected socialist leadership that despises all things military.
The army sees the socialists making a power grab for permanent control.
And moves to insure the Democratic political systems within the country remain unchanged.
As long as no one gets hurt and the army moves quickly to democratic elections I don't really see it as a big deal.

Trex

 

[Zzarchov]

I should point out the army leaders are not right wing, Im pretty sure they are left wing themselves. They were also ordered by the congress who had voted to impeach him.

See just because you are democratically elected as President does not mean you are democratically elected as god. He needed congress on his side to stage his referendum on the law that gives him any power in the first place. He did not win the support of those elected leaders, thus the courts ruled his referendum illegal. He ignored the courts and believed himself above the checks and balances his people voted in place. Thus the democratically elected congress impeached him. The people elect more than one person to run the country you know.

Thus he was arrested. Even presidents have to obey the law. Power does not reside in the hands of one man, but in the hands of many. He failed to win enough hands for his plan and rather than keep building support he kept going with it.

If he wanted a system where that was legal he shouldn't have worked so hard to keep freedom of speech an illusion in the country. Its somehow poetic when a leader is toppled by their own actions and the laws they supported.

That said military coups are still not the way to go, so im glad the military didn't take over. The military conducted an arrest and the next in line to succession took over, the speaker of congress (also an elected official). These are the laws of Honduras. Open to abuse and corruption? No doubt, but he had no problem with this system in his long political career and no problem trying make himself a permanent part of it.

 

[Trex]

I should point out the army leaders are not right wing, Im pretty sure they are left wing themselves. They were also ordered by the congress who had voted to impeach him.

See just because you are democratically elected as President does not mean you are democratically elected as god. He needed congress on his side to stage his referendum on the law that gives him any power in the first place. He did not win the support of those elected leaders, thus the courts ruled his referendum illegal. He ignored the courts and believed himself above the checks and balances his people voted in place. Thus the democratically elected congress impeached him. The people elect more than one person to run the country you know.

Thus he was arrested. Even presidents have to obey the law. Power does not reside in the hands of one man, but in the hands of many. He failed to win enough hands for his plan and rather than keep building support he kept going with it.

If he wanted a system where that was legal he shouldn't have worked so hard to keep freedom of speech an illusion in the country. Its somehow poetic when a leader is toppled by their own actions and the laws they supported.

That said military coups are still not the way to go, so im glad the military didn't take over. The military conducted an arrest and the next in line to succession took over, the speaker of congress (also an elected official). These are the laws of Honduras. Open to abuse and corruption? No doubt, but he had no problem with this system in his long political career and no problem trying make himself a permanent part of it.

I had not ferreted out the back story when I made my post.
Thanks for setting the story straight.
Trex

 

[Liberalman]

This can happen in any country socialist or democratic.

This can happen in America and any other free country.

The military is there to protect the country from outside invaders and inside enemies.

If the military sees that there is a threat to the government or the government lost control then they have the right to take over the country by force until order is brought back and when order is brought back they hand control back to the government.

 

[Cannuck]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/world/americas/29honduras.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=allToday, the fascists stole an entire government in Honduras and not one person bothered to discuss it on this forum.

Do you have evidence that these were fascists. I'm sure you can appreciate that I have little respect for ideologues and prefer they back up their statements with some type of information from a reasonable source.

 

[EagleSmack]

Looks like Gopher got this fed back to him!

 

[gopher]

Leftists don't usually put down an admitted leftist leader. In a democracy you vote the leader out of office, you don't grab him and exile him.

 

[gopher]

Contrary to the distortions of the far right, here is how the left reported the news:


PSLweb (Party for Socialism and Liberation): Down with the right-wing coup in Honduras!


Down with the right-wing coup in Honduras!
Monday, June 29, 2009
PSL Editorial
A military coup has just been staged in Honduras. The coup leaders kidnapped the democratically elected president Manuel Zelaya in the middle of the night, forged a resignation letter and declared Roberto Micheletti, a legislator, as the country's new president. In addition to forcing Zelaya into exile in Costa Rica, the ambassadors of Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua were reportedly kidnapped and beaten, before being released. Meanwhile, the country's private television stations are spreading misinformation, clearly cooperating with the coup-makers.

Demonstrators protest at the gate of the presidential palace in Tegucigalpa, Sunday, June 28, 2009It hardly requires a crystal ball to see that this brazen, undemocratic move is an attempt to reverse the country's growing association with the continental left-wing shift. Zelaya has led Honduras into the ALBA bloc, increased social spending, and advocated for a new constitution that provoked outright hostility from the country's pro-U.S. elite.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez has already pointed to the hidden hand of the CIA in the Honduras coup, calling it an attempt of the country's oligarchy to return it to a "banana republic" at the service of Washington.

Honduras, one of the hemisphere's poorest countries, has long been subjected to the CIA's dirty wars. In 1954, when the CIA orchestrated a coup against Jacobo Arbenz, the left-wing nationalist President of Guatemala, they dropped bombs in Honduras to incite a border confrontation. The coup resulted in the murder of over 100,000 Guatemalan civilians -- blood on the CIA's hands. In the 1970s and 1980s, the CIA financed ultra-right paramilitaries in a grotesque covert war against the left in Central America, including Honduras.

The coup has been led by military figures trained in the School of the Americas: a Pentagon-operated training facility in Georgia for assassins, torturers and paramilitaries, which has produced the continent's most murderous dictators. If the coup succeeds, it will undoubtedly be because it has received under-the-table acceptance from Washington.

Whether it will succeed is another question. Tens of thousands of Hondurans have poured into the streets calling for Zelaya's reinstatement. Among the chants were "Traitors" and "Out with the Bourgeoisie!" The failed 2002 coup in Venezuela showed that the organized masses have the power to overturn the fascists' attempts to seize power.

The working people of Honduras also now have greater regional allies than they did in the past. Latin America of today is different from that of the Cold War, or even from seven years ago when the coup was attempted against Hugo Chavez. The left-wing tide has allowed many countries to break with decades of neo-colonialism and set a more independent foreign policy. A brazen right-wing coup, once standard fare in the region, now faces the prospect of isolation from its neighbors. The countries of Latin America have pledged unanimously to only recognize Zelaya as the legitimate president of Honduras.

There is no way these far-right elements in the Honduran military could have acted without the green light from some section of the U.S. government, but global outrage against the coup could change the calculations in Washington.

The people united can overturn the coup! Reinstate Manuel Zelaya!




note thee big difference in how it is reported

 

[L Gilbert]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/world/americas/29honduras.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all


{reg required}


''President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras was ousted by the army on Sunday, capping months of tensions over his efforts to lift presidential term limits."

I have a problem with rulers that think they have the right to rulee as long as they like, too.

 

[gopher]

So do I. That is why we have elections, not coups.

 

[gopher]

Even your own government condemned the coup:

AFP: Canada condems Honduras coup d'etat


Canada condems Honduras coup d'etat
15 hours ago
OTTAWA (AFP) — Canada called Monday for all parties in coup-hit Honduras to respect democratic norms and seek a peaceful way out of their current crisis.
"Canada condemns the coup d'etat that took place over the weekend in Honduras," Secretary of State for foreign affairs Peter Kent said in a statement.
As well, he called on "all parties to show restraint and to seek a peaceful resolution to the present political crisis, which respects democratic norms and the rule of law, including the Honduran constitution."
"Democratic governance is a central pillar of Canada's enhanced engagement in the Americas, and we are seriously concerned by what has transpired in Honduras," Kent said.
On Sunday, troops roused President Manuel Zelaya in his pyjamas and flew him to Costa Rica, ending a bitter power struggle with the military as parliament swiftly voted in a new leader.

 

[gopher]

''Well if he had abided by the laws and traditions of his own country it never would have happened.''


The referendum he sought is within the Constitution of his country. Of course if you believe the Fox network lies then you are wasting your time.

 

[gopher]

''If the military sees that there is a threat to the government or the government lost control then they have the right to take over the country by force until order is brought back and when order is brought back they hand control back to the government. ''



Except that in a democracy, the people are the government and the MAJORITY is on the side of President Zelaya.


Note how the LA Times reports it:

Honduran president ousted in coup; replacement is named - Los Angeles Times


Nothing there about the President engaging in any form of illegal conduct.

 

[L Gilbert]

So do I. That is why we have elections, not coups.

Some people aren't as patient (read apathetic) as we are.

 

[L Gilbert]

Even your own government condemned the coup:

AFP: Canada condems Honduras coup d'etat


Canada condems Honduras coup d'etat
15 hours ago
OTTAWA (AFP) — Canada called Monday for all parties in coup-hit Honduras to respect democratic norms and seek a peaceful way out of their current crisis.
"Canada condemns the coup d'etat that took place over the weekend in Honduras," Secretary of State for foreign affairs Peter Kent said in a statement.
As well, he called on "all parties to show restraint and to seek a peaceful resolution to the present political crisis, which respects democratic norms and the rule of law, including the Honduran constitution."
"Democratic governance is a central pillar of Canada's enhanced engagement in the Americas, and we are seriously concerned by what has transpired in Honduras," Kent said.
On Sunday, troops roused President Manuel Zelaya in his pyjamas and flew him to Costa Rica, ending a bitter power struggle with the military as parliament swiftly voted in a new leader.

So? Since when has our gov't shown very much acuity towards reality? Have our pols stood in their shoes for any length of time? Anyone else's shoes?

 

[gopher]

Gee, remember when so many of the far right on this forum happily endorsed Bush's war campaign to spread democracy in the Middle East? Yes, I know that many of those dupes went silent after it was determined that Bush's motivations were all full of s**t. But restoring democracy to a democratically elected and popular government that has majority support via the bomb should be an idea that you of the right readily endorse.

 

[L Gilbert]

''If the military sees that there is a threat to the government or the government lost control then they have the right to take over the country by force until order is brought back and when order is brought back they hand control back to the government. ''



Except that in a democracy, the people are the government and the MAJORITY is on the side of President Zelaya.


Note how the LA Times reports it:

Honduran president ousted in coup; replacement is named - Los Angeles Times


Nothing there about the President engaging in any form of illegal conduct.

That's the problem with democracy. It is rule by majority, even though the popular trend may be the least wisest direction to follow.

 

[gopher]

'' since when has our government shown acuity towards reality?''


Certainly not when you had a conservative government.

 

[L Gilbert]

Seems to me that Iraqi were pro-Hussein because they were afraid to be otherwise.