Canada more democratic than the U.S.?

Machjo

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Now on the question of inflation vs. employment, I'd voted to keep inflation down on the grounds that eventually the economy would adjust to the low inflation, thus allowing the economy to create jobs in a low inflation environment.

Now if I vote for employment instead of inflation, I en up libertarian left.

THe whole thing is flawed. Questions are just too open to interpretation.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Welcome to the show. So I'm a right-wing fascist and you're a Stalinist. We'll get along well, I'm sure.:smile:

I told you so, Machjo. Remember the thread which you posted about Libertarianism? I told you over there that you are a conservative. Why does this surprise you?
 

Machjo

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If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations. X Strongly Agree

I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong. X Strongly Disagree

No one chooses his or her country of birth, so it's foolish to be proud of it.
X Strongly Agree

Our race has many superior qualities, compared with other races. X Strongly Disagree

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. X Strongly Disagree

Military action that defies international law is sometimes justified. X Strongly Disagree
There is now a worrying fusion of information and entertainment. X Strongly Disagree

People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality. X Strongly Disagree

Controlling inflation is more important than controlling unemployment. X Strongly Agree

Because corporations cannot be trusted to voluntarily protect the environment, they require regulation. X Strongly Agree

"from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a fundamentally good idea. X Strongly Agree

It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as drinking water is now a bottled, branded consumer product. X Strongly Disagree

Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold. X Strongly Disagree

Itis regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society. X Strongly Agree

Protectionism is sometimes necessary in trade. X Strongly Disagree

The only social responsibility of a company should be to deliver a profit to its shareholders. X Strongly Disagree

The rich are too highly taxed. Strongly X Strongly Agree

Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care . X Strongly Agree

Governments should penalise businesses that mislead the public. X Strongly Agree

A genuine free market requires restrictions on the ability of predator multinationals to create monopolies. X Strongly Disagree

The freer the market, the freer the people. X Strongly Agree

Abortion, when the woman's life is not threatened, should always be illegal. X Strongly Agree

All authority should be questioned. Strongly Disagree
X Strongly Agree

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. X Strongly Disagree

Taxpayers should not be expected to prop up any theatres or museums that cannot survive on a commercial basis. X Strongly Agree

Schools should not make classroom attendance compulsory. X Strongly Disagree

All people have their rights, but it is better for all of us that different sorts of people should keep to their own kind. X Strongly Disagree

Good parents sometimes have to spank their children. X Strongly Disagree

It's natural for children to keep some secrets from their parents. X Strongly Agree

Possessing marijuana for personal use should not be a criminal offence. X Strongly Disagree

The prime function of schooling should be to equip the future generation to find jobs. X Strongly Disagree

People with serious inheritable disabilities should not be allowed to reproduce. X Strongly Disagree

The most important thing for children to learn is to accept discipline. X Strongly Disagree

There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures. X Strongly Agree

Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society's support. X Strongly Agree

When you are troubled, it's better not to think about it, but to keep busy with more cheerful things.X Strongly Agree

First-generation immigrants can never be fully integrated within their new country. X Strongly Disagree

What's good for the most successful corporations is always, ultimately, good for all of us. X Strongly Disagree

No broadcasting institution, however independent its content, should receive public funding. X Strongly Agree

Our civil liberties are being excessively curbed in the name of counter-terrorism. X Strongly Agree

A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system. Strongly Disagree
X Strongly Agree

Although the electronic age makes official surveillance easier, only wrongdoers need to be worried. X Strongly Agree

The death penalty should be an option for the most serious crimes. X Strongly Agree

In a civilised society, one must always have people above to be obeyed and people below to be commanded. X Strongly Agree

Abstract art that doesn't represent anything shouldn't be considered art at all. X Strongly Disagree

In criminal justice, punishment should be more important than rehabilitation. X Strongly Disagree

It is a waste of time to try to rehabilitate some criminals. X Strongly Disagree


The businessperson and the manufacturer are more important than the writer and the artist. X Strongly Disagree

Mothers may have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers.X Strongly Agree

Multinational companies are unethically exploiting the plant genetic resources of developing countries. X Strongly Agree

Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity. X Strongly Agree

Astrology accurately explains many things. X Strongly Disagree

You cannot be moral without being religious. X Strongly Agree

Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged. X Strongly Agree

Some people are naturally unlucky. X Strongly Agree

It is important that my child's school instills religious values. X Strongly Agree

Sex outside marriage is usually immoral.X Strongly Agree

A same sex couple in a stable, loving relationship, should not be excluded from the possibility of child adoption. X Strongly Agree

Pornography, depicting consenting adults, should be legal for the adult population. X Strongly Disagree

What goes on in a private bedroom between consenting adults is no business of the state. X Strongly Disagree

No one can feel naturally homosexual. X Strongly Disagree

These days openness about sex has gone too far. X Strongly Agree
 

SirJosephPorter

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Support for a triple e senate would not have made the Reform Party any more or less right or left that it was already.

Normally it wouldn’t, Machjo. But they clearly saw across the border, saw what US was doing (equal Senate) and tried to copy it over here. That makes them blind followers of USA and hence, right wing.

Now as for the right blindly supporting the USA, or saying that everything Canadian is bad, is hogwash.

I did not say right, I said far right. Far right loves everything American, hates everything Canadian. Thus they want privatized health care (like they have in USA), they want referendums on everything (like they do in USA), they want restrictions on abortion (like they do in USA), they want to ban gay marriage (like they do in USA) and so on.

I'm sure plenty of Canadian fiscal conservatives admire Canada's fiscal policy more than they do the US'.

Now they do, now that their man (Messiah) is in power. When Liberals were in power, they supported Bush’s policies, rather than Liberal policies of running huge surpluses.

I was participating in Canada.com forum in those days. I have seen conservatives say that surplus was bad, that surplus meant that government was taxing people too much, that Liberal government must get rid of the surplus by reducing taxes (like Bush did).

Now of course, Messiah is in power, so they were all for surplus while he was running a surplus. I assume now that he is running huge deficits, they are all for deficits as well.

And I'm sure some Canadian traditionalists would prefer the monarchy over an elected president. Fiscal conservatives is accepted by many on the right, as is traditionalism.

Not the far right, they want American style system, of elected head of state. As to accepting fiscal conservatism, that depends upon who is in power.

Incidentally, far right includes a large part of the Conservative Party. The Messiah himself may rule from right of center. He is a pragmatist, he wants to win above all else and there is no way to win in Ontario and Quebec and still belong to the right. So he may govern from centre right, but his followers have no such constraint. Many of them (many conservative MPs as well) belong to far right.
 

Machjo

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I told you so, Machjo. Remember the thread which you posted about Libertarianism? I told you over there that you are a conservative. Why does this surprise you?

1. I never said I'm a Libertarian, only that I have points in common with Libertarians, mainly when it comes to economic policy and international trade.

2. When it comes to certain issues relating to criminal justice, some aspects of education, personal and sexual morality, ethical business practices, and drugs, I'm conservative enough to put the Conservative Party to shame.

3. Why am I surprised? I'm very much pro-UN, pro-international law, in favour of an international police force as a means to demilitarization. I'm in favour of free movement of labour, open immigration and even common world citizenship, as well as a common currency in order to eliminate middlemen who just make their money on the money-markets buying and selling money. though I was always aware of my conservative streak, I'd always considered these other points to be quite left... or are they?
 

SirJosephPorter

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You called them "far-right" and called Ezra Levant an "extremist".

I think I called Reform and Alliance parties of the right. And I did call Levant an extremist, I stand by it.

Now, I know it is very liberal of me, but I don't call anyone "extremist" if they truely belief in liberty, democracy, and rule of law.

A person does not have to disbelieve in rule of law to be an extremist. I consider religious right in USA to be extremists; they want to bring Christian Theocracy to USA. But they do not advocate breaking of law.

Thus, when Randy White said in an interview that Conservative government will use the Notwithstanding Clause whenever they are overruled by the Supreme Court, he was not advocating violating any law. Nevertheless, the position was extreme, and I consider Randy White to be right wing extremists (incidentally, that interview may very well have cost Harper the election, which resulted in Martin win).



And "centre-right" is slightly to the right of centre, exactly where Reform was........but it is still right wing, only slightly so.

And this is where we disagree. There was nothing centre about Reform Party, they were on the right, way to the right. The old PC party was centre right. Reform was the right wind extreme of the PC party.
 

Cannuck

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I think I rank a little higher on the facist scale than I would liked to have seen.

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.62


Hey!! You're an American. You are supposed to be farther right than the far right.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Machjo, reading your answers, it is no surprise to me that you got such a conservative score. I give some of my response to the same questions (I didn’t take the test, but I think I will come out as left libertarian).

Mothers may have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers.X Strongly Agree

I would strongly disagree.

You cannot be moral without being religious. X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.


Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged. X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.

Sex outside marriage is usually immoral.X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.

It is important that my child's school instills religious values. X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.

I consider myself to be very much on the left on social issues (overall I would consider myself left of centre). If I am to the left, it follows that you are to the right, judging from your responses to the questions.
 

Cannuck

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I love that test. Those of us who consider ourselves to the right end up on the left, and those who'd consider ourselves to the left end up on the right. Gotta love it.

I think the reason for that is that people confuse the social issues (libertarian/authoritarian)with economic issues. Abortion, for instance, is not a right left issue no matter how badly some want to paint it that way.
 

Machjo

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I did not say right, I said far right. Far right loves everything American, hates everything Canadian. Thus they want privatized health care (like they have in USA), they want referendums on everything (like they do in USA), they want restrictions on abortion (like they do in USA), they want to ban gay marriage (like they do in USA) and so on.

I support privatised health care, restrictions on abortion, to ban gay marriage, but it has nothing at all to do with the USA.

I'm sure plenty of Canadian fiscal conservatives admire Canada's fiscal policy more than they do the US'.
Now they do, now that their man (Messiah) is in power. When Liberals were in power, they supported Bush’s policies, rather than Liberal policies of running huge surpluses.

Strange that. According to that test, I'm quite right-wing apparently! Yet I'd forseen that US militarism was going to run the US economy into the ground sooner or later. Overall, I'd even consider the US, and Canada to a lesser degree, to be somewhat imperialist. Funny comming from a 'right-winger', hugh?

I was participating in Canada.com forum in those days. I have seen conservatives say that surplus was bad, that surplus meant that government was taxing people too much, that Liberal government must get rid of the surplus by reducing taxes (like Bush did).

They may have been Conservatives, but certainly not fiscal conservatives.

Funny thing is, in spite of my Conservative views, I tend to lean more towards left-leaning candidates, mainly because though i agree with conservatives on many points, I also recognize that imperialistic foreing policy will run us into the ground sooner or later, and have recognized that well over a decade ago. I've more or less always voted moderate left candidates.. either that or handing a blank ballot. I've often admired many conservative ideas, but simly couldn't accept the package if you will. The left-leaning package is still more appealing to me in spite of how much I disagree with many points in it. You seem to be generalizing a whole lot.
Now of course, Messiah is in power, so they were all for surplus while he was running a surplus. I assume now that he is running huge deficits, they are all for deficits as well.

And I'm sure some Canadian traditionalists would prefer the monarchy over an elected president. Fiscal conservatives is accepted by many on the right, as is traditionalism.
Not the far right, they want American style system, of elected head of state. As to accepting fiscal conservatism, that depends upon who is in power.

Wrong. The Far right wants to introduce a fascist state. You think the current Canada is militaristic and imperialistic? Yes, it is to a certain degree, that's right of centre. Far right, we'd be marching off into WWIII and Canada would be building nukes right now.

Incidentally, far right includes a large part of the Conservative Party. The Messiah himself may rule from right of center. He is a pragmatist, he wants to win above all else and there is no way to win in Ontario and Quebec and still belong to the right. So he may govern from centre right, but his followers have no such constraint. Many of them (many conservative MPs as well) belong to far right.

I wouldn't call Harper far right. he's certainly not a moderate either. He's somewhere in the middle I'd say. He definitely has a militaristic streak in how he wanted to rush off into Iraq. He certainly has a nationalistic streak in how it didn't phase him that the US was in Iraq illegally. He clearly had little respect for international laws, formed over many years of consultation and co-operation between countries. International laws are very fragile owing to their lack of teeth. When a nation disrepsects them, others are soon to follow, and before we know it, those laws mean nothing anymore. They take years to create, days to destroy.

So yes, Harper is by no means a moderate. But I would not say extremist either. Somewhere between the two. There is far more extreme than harper.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Machjo, I looked at all the question, and to most of them I would give almost opposite response to yours. Thus where you strongly agree, I would strongly disagree and the other way around.

If I consider myself on the left (for social issues only), it follows that you would be on the right.
 

Machjo

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Machjo, reading your answers, it is no surprise to me that you got such a conservative score. I give some of my response to the same questions (I didn’t take the test, but I think I will come out as left libertarian).

Mothers may have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers.X Strongly Agree

I would strongly disagree.

This is something I had a hard time answering owing to varied interpretations. I'd say that both the father and mother should prioritize the kids before making money for the sake of making money as an end in itself, as often happens. According to that understanding, I'd vote that I agree strongly. If it's interpreted to mean mothers to the exclusion of fathers, or that they should just stay at home altogether, then I'd vote disagree strongly. But since it did start with 'Mothers may have careers', it seemd the first interpretation was more appropriate for me. You see how the question itself was flawed.

You cannot be moral without being religious. X Strongly Agree
I strongly disagree.

Another one I had a hard time with. Here I wasn't interpreting religious as a particular religion, but rather a belief in something higher. In this respect, if an atheist says that he believes in justice, and he has a strong belief in it that causes him to behave accordingly, I'd say that that is a religion. Not a philosophy involving just economic and intellectual hypothesizing, but an actual emotion, and something he believes in as a matter of Faith (matters of justice cannot be proven scientifically as such). In that sence, it is his religion. Again, too open to various shades of interpretation.


Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged. X Strongly Agree
I strongly disagree.

Now this is one question that appeared quite clear and unambiguous to me at least,and I stick to it. Charity is ess bureaucratic in many cases.

Sex outside marriage is usually immoral.X Strongly Agree
I strongly disagree.

Another clear question in my opinion, and I stick to it.

It is important that my child's school instills religious values. X Strongly Agree
I strongly disagree.

Another clear question, except on the point of the definition of religion. I would prefer the school teach him religions other than the one taught at home. After all, I can teach them my own at home anyway. The objective of religious studies at school should be not only moral education, but also respect for all world religions. That one might have been ambiguous too.

I consider myself to be very much on the left on social issues (overall I would consider myself left of centre). If I am to the left, it follows that you are to the right, judging from your responses to the questions.

On those issues, yes. But I'm probably to your left on other issues. For example:

Would you support putting all of Canada's aboriginal languages on an equal footing with English and French in some way? I would.

Would you support all religions being equal at shool? i think you would and I would too, albeit in different ways. With you, it's no religion. With me, it's all religions.

Would you support all languages being equal at the UN? I would.

Woud you support a common world military force to help reduce overall worldwide military spending? I would.

Would you support free movement of labour worldwide and making immigration easier? Id support world citizenship.

In some of these respects, I might even be considered far left.
 

Cannuck

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1 People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality. X Strongly Disagree RIGHT

2 It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as drinking water is now a bottled, branded consumer product. X Strongly Disagree - RIGHT

3 Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold. X Strongly Disagree - RIGHT

4 The rich are too highly taxed. Strongly X Strongly Agree - RIGHT

5 Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care . X Strongly Agree - RIGHT

6 The freer the market, the freer the people. X Strongly Agree - RIGHT

7 Taxpayers should not be expected to prop up any theatres or museums that cannot survive on a commercial basis. X Strongly Agree - RIGHT

8 Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society's support. X Strongly Agree - RIGHT

9 No broadcasting institution, however independent its content, should receive public funding. X Strongly Agree - RIGHT

10 Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged. X Strongly Agree - RIGHT

I've quoted your answers that I would consider as right of center. I don't believe each question is judged equally. Questions # 2 and 5 refer to basic human needs and you have chosen to accept these basic human needs as commodities to be bought and sold. I think this weights you more heavily to the right than answering say #3 and 9 the way you did.

Possessing marijuana for personal use should not be a criminal offence. X Strongly Disagree


If you don't have control of your body what do you control? This question also weighs heavier to the authoritarian side than some others.
 

Francis2004

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Quoting SirJosephPorter You cannot be moral without being religious. X Strongly Agree
Quoting SirJosephPorter


Another one I had a hard time with. Here I wasn't interpreting religious as a particular religion, but rather a belief in something higher. In this respect, if an atheist says that he believes in justice, and he has a strong belief in it that causes him to behave accordingly, I'd say that that is a religion. Not a philosophy involving just economic and intellectual hypothesizing, but an actual emotion, and something he believes in as a matter of Faith (matters of justice cannot be proven scientifically as such). In that sence, it is his religion. Again, too open to various shades of interpretation.

I found this answer odd.. As someone who believe in God I found that you would first have to have much better morals without religion.

How many people hide behind religion to commit sin ?

You need not be Religious to have high morals and yet still put both of them together with morals. One assumes that one with religion will have better morals then others ( Athiest ) when that is not so..
 
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Cannuck

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Machjo, reading your answers, it is no surprise to me that you got such a conservative score. I give some of my response to the same questions (I didn’t take the test, but I think I will come out as left libertarian).

Mothers may have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers.X Strongly Agree

I would strongly disagree.

You cannot be moral without being religious. X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.


Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged. X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.

Sex outside marriage is usually immoral.X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.

It is important that my child's school instills religious values. X Strongly Agree

I strongly disagree.

I consider myself to be very much on the left on social issues (overall I would consider myself left of centre). If I am to the left, it follows that you are to the right, judging from your responses to the questions.

Only one of the questions you quoted was a right/left issue. The rest were Libertarian/authoritarian. You clearly do not understand the concept.
 

Machjo

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1 People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality.

An rich English Canadian can still hire a poor English Canadian to work for him. He can't even communicate with the French Canadian. Beteen nations, division can be complete.Though here we can also understand nations along ethnic lines. In this sence, an English Canadian and an Englishman are closer than an English Canadian and a French Canadian, unless one knows the culture of the other. THis was just a statement of fact in my mind, not necessarily an ideal. In that respect, I don't even see how it could reflect ones policical beliefs.

2 It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as drinking water is now a bottled, branded consumer product.

Drinking water is available through our faucets too. I don't see how bottling it reduces our access to it in faucets.

3 Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold.

I don't see why not. Sure some public proterty might be needed, but not all public property. I took this question to suggest that property should under no circumstances be bought and sold.

4 The rich are too highly taxed.

That would be a right wing response, but I also beleive that workers should have more say in how a company is run. That quesiton was not in the test, and thus not reflected as a counterbalance. I'd even go so far as to give workers a vote on the board of directors. Heck, many labour unionists would love me for that point, even if I'm not in favour of nions per se.

5 Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care .

I do beleive in privatising medical care, but also in charity. But yes, that point would be not far right, but certainly not moderate right in Canada either.


6 The freer the market, the freer the people.

Now this was open to interpretation. I took it as international trade, and not necessarily access to what we want. Sex trade, drug trafficking, etc., I'd want to control. I don't see why free trade should be viewed as a right-wing thing necessarily. After all, could two socialist countries not trade with each other? I realise that it is a right-wing stance in Canada. I just don't understand why.

7 Taxpayers should not be expected to prop up any theatres or museums that cannot survive on a commercial basis.

THis follows from the hospital question above. If tax money isn't funding hospitals, we need to ensure that people have as much charitable money as possible to give to hospitals. To give to unessential things like theatres takes away money that could otherwise be used for charity to help the truly needy.


8 Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society's support.

Not too much should be read into this. I do support helping the poor. And certainly I accept that there may be leitimate reasons for a person to refuse work. I was reserving this statement for extreme cases only.

9 No broadcasting institution, however independent its content, should receive public funding.

Why should we? Again, though I'm well aware that it's a right wing thing in Canada, I don't see why it is. After all, i'd generally think of the left as wanting to help the poor, not rich broadcasting agencies.

10 Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged.

More efficient, yes, in most cases anyway.
 

Cannuck

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I found this answer odd.. As someone who believe in God I found that you would first have to have much better morals without religion.

How many people hide behind religion to commit sin ?

You need not be Religious to have high morals and yet still put both of them together with morals. One assumes that one with religion will have better morals then others ( Athiest ) when that is not so..

I oversimplified this question I think. Without religion, murder is not immoral. It is socially unacceptable. I'm sure most atheist would disagree with that. I guess it comes down to ones view as to what "moral" is. Personally I believe in god but don't believe in right and wrong (inherently speaking).
 

Machjo

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I found this answer odd.. As someone who believe in God I found that you would first have to have much better morals without religion.

How many people hide behind religion to commit sin ?

You need not be Religious to have high morals and yet still put both of them together with morals. One assumes that one with religion will have better morals then others ( Athiest ) when that is not so..

But again, read my interpretation of religion in this context. Sometimes I use a different interpretation, but here it seemed that a person who believes in nothing but money, even if he calls himself religious, cannot be trusted. He can scam you for all you're worth.

But if an atheist comes along and he believes in justice and charity, and strongly believes in it, that is a religious feeling of sorts, and I'd trust him even if he says he doesn't have a religion. According to my understanding, he does have a religion though he could disagree with me if he wishes. As for the one who worships money, he can call himself religious all he wants, but i don't consider that religious. To me, religion is a deeper sence not necessarily attributable to this or that religion.
 

Machjo

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Possessing marijuana for personal use should not be a criminal offence.

Marijuana is addictive. We need to protect people from themselves too. Should opium be legal?